[bertschb]

The nice thing about not being a metallurgist, aeronautical engineer or fabricator is you blindly trust the engineers that designed your airplane. Much less stressful and I sleep better at night.

 

[Jack_G_S]

Vans had a chance at OSH 2023 to inform us what happened with the LCP initiative. Instead, they blamed it on the supplier failing to follow the prescribed pretzel cutting guidelines. I was there and we all were wondering, feedback was being supplied for over 9 months that there was an issue, and nobody bothered to go to the supplier for over 9 moths and visually see how they were cutting the parts? Most companies would welcome early feedback that VAF supplies. In my previous life I spent a lot, of money getting customers to provide said feedback. This is not about worthless complaining but is being done to help Vans Aircraft get through this difficult period and address issues. Hopefully they will do this.

People that think you can constantly brush issues under the rug will find out someday. Personally I would like issues addressed before they put the company in peril.

 

[steveandmaysrocket]

Never ends

Solutions typically don’t.

 

[ccarlson]

I don’t understand - where’s the stress?

Curious… Why is it not okay to ask questions and discuss this stuff? If someone doesn’t have an interest, they could just skip the thread - there’s no need to be snide or snarky. Our GA lifestyle is slowly dying and has been for decades. Needling each other, as I often see on here, just makes it worse.

Said differently, I am building an airplane in large part for the sake of challenging myself to learn new things (the same reason I’ve started chasing an ATP certificate at 52…). I appreciated Steve’s explanation about the tempering of aluminum. I had no idea it was done by freezing or that there might be a local place that does it. I don’t need to anneal or temper anything, but now I have more insight around how it might be done, and where, from someone who has actually done it and knows why. (It still weirds me out that it is done with low temps… I feel a remedial chemistry lesson coming on…)

I am an engineer and a pilot. I am not offended in the least when someone questions or challenges my work (best stay away from my flying, though! [joking] ). I see inquiry as an opportunity for learning, very possibly at both ends of the conversation.

Is education and learning not the foundation of homebuilding?

 

[steveandmaysrocket]

I don’t understand - where’s the stress?

Curious… Why is it not okay to ask questions and discuss this stuff? If someone doesn’t have an interest, they could just skip the thread - there’s no need to be snide or snarky. Our GA lifestyle is slowly dying and has been for decades. Needling each other, as I often see on here, just makes it worse.

Said differently, I am building an airplane in large part for the sake of challenging myself to learn new things (the same reason I’ve started chasing an ATP certificate at 52…). I appreciated Steve’s explanation about the tempering of aluminum. I had no idea it was done by freezing or that there might be a local place that does it. I don’t need to anneal or temper anything, but now I have more insight around how it might be done, and where, from someone who has actually done it and knows why. (It still weirds me out that it is done with low temps… I feel a remedial chemistry lesson coming on…)

I am an engineer and a pilot. I am not offended in the least when someone questions or challenges my work (best stay away from my flying, though! [joking] ). I see inquiry as an opportunity for learning, very possibly at both ends of the conversation.

Is education and learning not the foundation of homebuilding?

That perspective is refreshing and absolutely correct. This is what Engineers live with every day. Peer review

The heat treating process of heat the parts up, quench in water, hold on ice, straighten cold work etc… and naturally age has been around for 60 years or so.

It’s literally done every day. And it is an inexpensive solution with huge benefits.

I mostly ignore the comments that attack a person. Attacking an idea with a better idea, is how aircraft have gone from the first powered flight to today.

If the Wright Brothers hadn’t attacked ideas, we wouldn’t be here.

As for trusting an engineer…trust but verify never hurts and frankly no one can be a subject matter expert on all processes. So when a good idea is presented, smart engineers remain open to improvements.

Steve

 

[joer308]

" If someone doesn’t have an interest, they could just skip the thread - there’s no need to be snide or snarky. Our GA lifestyle is slowly dying and has been for decades. Needling each other, as I often see on here, just makes it worse."

Dying? Is this is why Vans has sold 15,000+ kits over the past years? Not mentioning the other kit manufacturers that have grown? As for skipping threads, the same can be said for droning on and on about what Van's should have done, or what they want Vans to do, or lessons in metallurgy. There's always golf.

As for questioning engineers, since we're comparing, I am an engineer, was chief engineer after being a chief of test for several aircraft programs at a major aircraft manufacturer along with Program Manager, and if I want a lesson in metallurgy, I can open a book. I love this site for information about building and different ways of doing things. Also for learning about issues - such as LCP's and the forming of the ribs.

 

[rocketman1988]

That perspective is refreshing and absolutely correct. This is what Engineers live with every day. Per review.

The heat treating process of heat the parts up, quench in water, hold on ice, straighten cold work etc… and naturally age has been around for 60 years or so.

It’s literally done every day. And it is an inexpensive solution with huge benefits.

I mostly ignore the comments that attack a person. Attacking an idea with a better idea, is how aircraft have gone from the first powered flight to today.

If the Wright Brothers hadn’t attacked ideas, we wouldn’t be here.

As for trusting an engineer…trust but verify never hurts and frankly no one can be a subject matter expert on all processes. So when a good idea is presented, smart engineers remain open to improvements.

Steve

I would agree with your last paragraph, however, when people believe that that ARE a subject matter expert in all processes, I think they need to be transparent about what makes them so.

I have seen discussions between TLAR engineers and engineers that actually HAVE the education and background. It is interesting, and somewhat painful, to watch.

Aircraft design is a complex system of compromises. Typically, changing one parameter will affect many more, some of which may not be intuitive.

If the perceived SMEs wanted to help, maybe they ought to present their ideas to vans. I am reasonably certain that they would be interested in improving their product/business/manufacturing.

Or, maybe there are behind the scenes reasons why those idea would NOT work. A good engineer, while being open to improvements, also needs to have as much information as possible in order to make informed decisions. It would seem to me that no one here has more information on van’s business than Van…

 

[Ironflight]

Folks - Doug had to lock down the other thread on the under pressed parts because folks were taking pot-shots at each other and some just couldn’t stop posting the same thing over and over again. This one will probably go the same way based on this last page of posts.

 

[ccarlson]

" If someone doesn’t have an interest, they could just skip the thread - there’s no need to be snide or snarky. Our GA lifestyle is slowly dying and has been for decades. Needling each other, as I often see on here, just makes it worse."

Dying? Is this is why Vans has sold 15,000+ kits over the past years? Not mentioning the other kit manufacturers that have grown? As for skipping threads, the same can be said for droning on and on about what Van's should have done, or what they want Vans to do, or lessons in metallurgy. There's always golf.

As for questioning engineers, since we're comparing, I am an engineer, was chief engineer after being a chief of test for several aircraft programs at a major aircraft manufacturer along with Program Manager, and if I want a lesson in metallurgy, I can open a book. I love this site for information about building and different ways of doing things. Also for learning about issues - such as LCP's and the forming of the ribs.

Yes, GA has been in decline for decades, but - and thankfully - the decline started flattening out a bit in/around 2016 with a resurgence in pilot numbers. Yes, Van’s has sold lots of kits & more than 11,000 of them are flying - that is certainly a very good thing. But it isn’t reflective of the bigger picture. The cost of aviation is continuing to rise, and ownership continues to be less and less viable for many in both the certificated and experimental markets. Parts availability for the certificated world is also becoming more and more of an issue for parts of the GA fleet as it ages, and the dubious future of 100LL is a concern.

To be clear, I’m not all doom and gloom on GA. Not by a long shot. I run an active EAA chapter that has produced 5 new PPs in the last 5 years via the Ray Scholarship program, and I have flown 394 kids on Young Eagles flights. I participate in school STEM nights and do whatever else I can to evangelize for GA - but I do so knowing it is an uphill adventure. My point was, if it wasn’t clear, that we really ought to be promoters in here, not detractors.

Anyway, digressing off topic.

FWIW - I wasn’t comparing - this isn’t a competition. I was simply stating a fact to set context for a viewpoint. re: reading a book - I understand. That said, I can spot traffic out my window, but I still appreciate it when ATC calls it out for me. Steve and a couple others just gave me more info to consider (gee, thanks guys. Like I don’t have enough to do already?! )

One man’s drone is another man’s UAV. There are plenty of discussions on VAF I don’t wander into because they either don’t interest me, or I think I have nothing to contribute. I keep an eye on this one because I appreciate insight on the topic & because it had a direct $8,500 impact on me. (I do apologize again for waking it up with my well-intended but poorly placed message re: under pressing, though.)

 

[airguy]

If the perceived SMEs wanted to help, maybe they ought to present their ideas to vans. I am reasonably certain that they would be interested in improving their product/business/manufacturing.

That's one approach. Another would be to start their own company designing and selling kits - the market can always use more competition.

Not being snarky by any means - I'm being serious - if someone has a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door.

 

[Jonnyb]

That's one approach. Another would be to start their own company designing and selling kits - the market can always use more competition.

Not being snarky by any means - I'm being serious - if someone has a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door.

I think one of the reasons that Vans is so successful is that it has critical mass.

By that I mean that nearly every airport has at least one based there. Most pilots know of someone who has one or has at least flown one.

There’s a huge community of builders and pilots out there. Just look at this place or Facebook. Hundreds if not thousands of current and historic builders.

There are better aircraft out there, better aerobatic aircraft, better load haulers, better tourers and back country aircraft. But nothing to match the Vans fleet in over all appeal.

Plus build simplicity, the average Joe can build one of these given some basic tools and a workshop. And you can see, with some skill, builders can come up with some incredible aircraft that are way better than anything the certified world can offer.

So what I’m getting at is that there are better mouse traps, but the world is not beating a path to their door. And competing with someone like Vans, at this point, would be extremely difficult. Not impossible, especially if Vans keep shooting themselves in the foot, but difficult.