[walkman]

I may be the odd one out here but... I detest landing and tie down fees. Our tax money paid for the ramps. I was at a small airport for a couple hours and never even went into the FBO. My ride brought me back and I got in and fired up. The FBO contacted me on the radio and said I owed them a fee. I shut down and went in and paid. I feel like it would be the same as some small private business owner charging me a fee for driving down a public road which passes their store. I recently saw a YouTuber who I won't mention that landed someplace in north eastern Ohio IIRC and he had to pay $100. Said he was there only 10 minutes.
I am just totally against them and agree with Walt about sharing information boycotting them!

This is the thing that totally hacks me off

When I starting flying int he 80's pretty much every airport had a municipal ramp where you could park for free for a few hours and overnight for a nominal charge or even free

Then comes in Millionair, Signature, Sheltair etc and signs a contract with the municipality claiming to bring in tax money but shutting down the municipal ramp.

Now I have to pay $75 to park overnight, and a $45+ "handling change" to park for a few hours.

For exactly the same level of service.

I complained about this to Signature recently, the response was "you should have known aviation was an expensive hobby when you got into it"

 

[Biggiesauls]

I’m reminded of the phrase "everything in moderation". Our local airport, KTXK, charges a landing fee, only if over 8,000 pounds I think is the weight. Using Vector Airport Systems.

However fbo Signature charges every fee the can sneak on you. Walk through the door from ramp fee, no kidding. No moderation with them.

 

[Amadeus]

I'm amazed (and frankly, disappointed) about how many posts on this thread are already signaling "defeat"

My "defeat" comment was in response to the ski jump on Wide World of Sports comment. I forget that not everyone is as aged as others. Not everyone remembers Jim McKay's opening lines to WWoS on Saturday mornings. The agony of defeat part was spoken as a skier slides off the ski jump out of control.

"The thrill of victory ... and the agony of defeat"​

 

[wirejock]

I got a bill from one of those. I was hot. My airplane doesn't even have wings and it's not a Leer. It took weeks for them to clear it up.
Plan on lots of errors.

 

[walkman]

I'm amazed (and frankly, disappointed) about how many posts on this thread are already signaling "defeat", even to the point about whether a certain fee is 'affordable' for some. It's no wonder that the powers-that-be are willing to chance fees that will certainly cripple/kill GA...as it appears many are giving up without a fight. My suggestion: Grow a pair. Protest. Call your Congressperson and file a complaint. Call EAA/AOPA and tell them to fight or you will drop your membership. Call your local newspaper. If necessary, file a court action.........There are many things that can and should be done before everyone reaches in their pockets and hands over their cash. Never forget that airports are built with YOUR tax money, and the FAA is supposed to work for us, not the other way around.

Quite frankly, and I feel this has been true for a long time, if you're not flying a warbird EAA is useless

 

[Amadeus]

Our tax money paid for the ramps

Not just the municipality taxes on our income but also the taxes included in each and every gallon of fuel purchased at the places our municipality taxes paid to build.

 

[bkc3921]

My "defeat" comment was in response to the ski jump on Wide World of Sports comment. I forget that not everyone is as aged as others. Not everyone remembers Jim McKay's opening lines to WWoS on Saturday mornings. The agony of defeat part was spoken as a skier slides off the ski jump out of control.

"The thrill of victory ... and the agony of defeat"​

Thanks, but I wasn't specifically referring to your comment (I do remember McKay..and I cringe when I see that crash...). Just seems that many are resigned to the fact that the fees are here to stay, expanding to smaller airports, etc. and there is nothing we can do about it. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of taking it in the shorts. Perhaps someone should look into the BILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of jobs (including many in our 'precious' Federal Government) that are a direct result of GA. It just seems every politician in this country should be reminded of the huge impact on the economy the aerospace industry provides....and it all begins with GA. That quote someone made about Signature (you should have known....) really creams my corn. They should be boycotted for having such a pompous attitude. And in case anyone wonders, yes, I'm old and grumpy...and I'm getting more grumpy by the day....

 

[g zero]

My AOPA membership money is now allocated to landing fees. Mark Barker keeps sending me emails try to sell me everything from Insurance to Bitcoin ….he’s missed the ship on this one .
I don’t see the Value in being a member.

 

[WillG]

ADSB - this was all so predictable.

 

[Amadeus]

I complained about this to Signature recently, the response was "you should have known aviation was an expensive hobby when you got into it"

The difference is that WE do this because of a passion for aviation; THEY do this for profit - nothing else - so they will seek profit anywhere they can filch it.

 

[Webb]

A fee is nothing but a tax. If I go any further, I will be in violation of VAF’s politics rule.

 

[RVFlyer]

I'm amazed (and frankly, disappointed) about how many posts on this thread are already signaling "defeat", even to the point about whether a certain fee is 'affordable' for some. It's no wonder that the powers-that-be are willing to chance fees that will certainly cripple/kill GA...as it appears many are giving up without a fight. My suggestion: Grow a pair. Protest. Call your Congressperson and file a complaint. Call EAA/AOPA and tell them to fight or you will drop your membership. Call your local newspaper. If necessary, file a court action.........There are many things that can and should be done before everyone reaches in their pockets and hands over their cash. Never forget that airports are built with YOUR tax money, and the FAA is supposed to work for us, not the other way around.

AOPA is very much involved....https://aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/september/04/florida-cities-county-prepare-to-impose-new-fees-on-airport-users

Yes, I work for AOPA. I'm also a long-time VAF supporter and a lifetime EAA member.

The landing fee issue is quietly spreading across the nation. We are working to address it at that scale, but in the meantime, pilots need to stay alert to airports/municipalities pursuing landing fees, and when they hear about it, alert AOPA and work with us to engage locally. One of the big challenges at this point is that most airports proposing landing fees are exempting their based aircraft, thereby cutting down on the local opposition. Obviously, if this trend were to spread unchecked, one day, your local airport would be the only one where you wouldn't pay fees (even those exemptions would probably go away eventually).

AOPA is not letting this go unchecked, but we can't do it alone. We are strong because of our members (Yes, that's a not-so-subtle suggestion to join, if you haven't already....no other organization is fighting landing fees and many other battles like AOPA is).

 

[DanH]

"The thrill of victory ... and the agony of defeat"

Admittedly off topic, but the rest of the story will probably make everyone feel better:

 

[Toobuilder]

Did a quick overnight run to Laughlin/Bullhead a few weeks ago to attend a celebration of life for a friend. Have not been there for a while but it used to be a convenient and inexpensive “go to” for us. The current situation was shocking. An expansive and completely empty (as in ZERO other aircraft) was initially appealing, but I found out why upon check in. What used to be a few bucks was now $75 per night with all the fees tacked on. I told the counter person that it was MUCH cheaper right up the road in Vegas. She seemed surprised - as if it was perfectly normal for someone to pay 75 bucks for 3 chains. I also offered that this was likely the reason for the empty ramp.

And to the topic at hand, we KNEW ADS-b came with strings attached... This is just the start.

 

[Amadeus]

I also offered that this was likely the reason for the empty ramp.

Which is EXACTLY how we should handle this. Just don't go to those charging light GA aircraft landing fees. Let them be empty AND NOT SELLING ANY FUEL and they will get the message.

 

[Saber25]

No, ain't gonna do it. Not at this juncture. Not going to say I told you so. When ADS-B was initially promulgated by the FED'S I commented on AvWeb and this forum, AOPA's and EAA's welcoming of ADS-B would lead to eventual charges to users of airspace and facilities since the track is so easy to follow. I have three sport airplanes and none have that intrusive piece of equipment.

 

[skirting_virga]

Respectfully, ADS-B is not the problem, and I recognize the safety advantage of awareness that it brings to congested areas. A local midair killed an instructor and his student when a sonex xenos without ADS-B transitioned through a busy practice area. He was right in that he didn't legally have to have ADS-B out. He was right in that he did not have to use the local practice area frequency to report his position. He was right in that the regs prescribe see-and-avoid above these other methods of traffic awareness. Ultimately he was dead right, and his insistence on operating that way contributed to the deaths of two other people.

ADS-B gives unscrupulous, rent-seeking profiteers a tool to bury GA in fees. But don't for a minute think that they wouldn't be selling a service with runway cameras to tally tail numbers for the same purpose. It would be the same basic tech as red light cameras. Take issue with the airport boards and municipalities who are buying into these greedy sales pitches, the NIMBYs who want to cripple or shut down their local airports, and the lack of political power to protect GA at the national level. Those are the problems here.

I once watched a glider instructor not switch on his battery powered ADS-B box in a high traffic area, because he didn't legally have to, before I knew better. Another time I came uncomfortably close to a paraglider that was invisible at 11,000' above my high left wing, and not ADS-B equipped. My passenger was able to see it due to angle, which avoided a closer call, but what if I had been solo?

I'm 100% in favor of mandatory ADS-B for every glider, drone, paraglider, airplane, or ultralight - for safety. Take issue with unscrupulous rent-seekers, and the lack of strong federal aviation laws to tell them to take a hike, not the tech that can keep us safer.

 

[wnplt]

It can happen anywhere. 5C1. Boerne-Stage. A small airport just northwest of San Antonio. A friend used to hangar there, and moved his aircraft to another location a few years ago for convenience. Recently, he made a landing, visited an acquaintance, and got a bill in the mail a month later. He had no idea they implemented landing fees. It’s not very easy to find this information, without searching. After searching I found the web link for fee information. And this is just a little GA airport in Texas, outside any class B, C, or D airspace.

Airport Fees & Billing – Boerne Stage Airfield

Boycott these airports!

 

[WillG]

Respectfully, ADS-B is not the problem, and I recognize the safety advantage of awareness that it brings to congested areas. A local midair killed an instructor and his student when a sonex xenos without ADS-B transitioned through a busy practice area. He was right in that he didn't legally have to have ADS-B out. He was right in that he did not have to use the local practice area frequency to report his position. He was right in that the regs prescribe see-and-avoid. Ultimately he was dead right, and his insistence on operating that way contributed to the deaths of two other people.

ADS-B gives unscrupulous, rent-seeking profiteers a tool to bury GA in fees. But don't for a minute think that they wouldn't be selling a service with runway cameras to tally tail numbers for the same purpose. It would be the same basic tech as red light cameras. Take issue with the airport boards and municipalities who are buying into these greedy sales pitches, the NIMBYs who want to cripple or shut down their local airports, and the lack of political power to protect GA at the national level. Those are the problems here.

I once watched a glider instructor not switch on his battery powered ADS-B box in a high traffic area, because he didn't legally have to, before I knew better. Another time I came uncomfortably close to a paraglider that was invisible at 11,000' above my high left wing, and not ADS-B equipped. My passenger was able to see it due to angle, which avoided a closer call, but what if I had been solo?

I'm 100% in favor of mandatory ADS-B for every glider, drone, paraglider, airplane, or ultralight - for safety. Take issue with unscrupulous rent-seekers, and the lack of strong federal aviation laws to tell them to take a hike, not the tech that can keep us safer.

 

[jrs14855]

The price for turning off ADS B may be revocation of all certificates. I will likely never install ADS B which I have given another name. A pain in the NE but not a big deal.

 

[Pilot135pd]

Landing Fees are coming… KDED , KOMN and KFIN in Florida have signed up to collect landing fees …$3 per 1000 lbs . The ADSB we all had to install is the tracker for billing.
Glad mine is a Uvavionics on my rudder ….. nav lights have a toggle

Violating the Regs versus maybe a $6 landing fee?

 

[WillG]

ADSB is a great tool.
The trouble with ADSB - everyone thinks that everyone has it.
ADSB does not guarantee anything.

Make a list of all boycotted airports - nationally.
Send list to each the them that are on the list.

 

[skirting_virga]

ADSB is a great tool.
The trouble with ADSB - everyone thinks that everyone has it.
ADSB does not guarantee anything.

Literally everyone should have it, IMO. I think the regs requiring it in limited circumstance were a half measure that didn't go far enough for safety. There's no excuse for not having a transponder and radio in 2024 - they are easily battery powered. Tradition and expense aren't good enough reasons.

Make a list of all boycotted airports - nationally.
Send list to each the them that are on the list.

Agree with that. I bet foreflight will eventually incorporate landing fees if it becomes a large enough issue.

 

[Amadeus]

Since ADS-B is not required outside Class A, Class B and Class C then how would it be a regulation infraction for turning it off?

 

[Pilot135pd]

I'm amazed (and frankly, disappointed) about how many posts on this thread are already signaling "defeat", even to the point about whether a certain fee is 'affordable' for so

Since ADS-B is not required outside Class A, Class B and Class C then how would it be a regulation infraction for turning it off?

Because the Regulation explicitly says so.

 

[Amadeus]

Because the Regulation explicitly says so.

What's the difference between not having it vs. not having it switched on? Same result.

I have it and do not have a switch to turn off - nor would I as I want to see and be seen - but don't see a difference in switching off vs. not having it.

 

[Pilot135pd]

Gotta love added regulations. When will voters learn?

The conceptual development of the ADS-B System began in the early 1990s, fundamental system-level decisions and worldwide standards for aircraft and ground equipment were made and developed over the next 15 years, an implementing rule for the NAS was finalized in 2010, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ADS-B ground systems with appropriate linkage to ATC automation platforms were put into place by 2014, and fleet-wide participation in the ADS-B System was required in major portions of the nation's airspace by January 1, 2020.

So if you're going by facts, I know it's hard to do for some, it's hard to figure out what a voter could have done to prevent ADSB.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

Everyone…

I think we are missing the point here…

At Dallas Love Field this same company literally has traffic cameras that take down tail numbers. Forget the ADSB debate, they will find a way to collect. The right way is AOPA and other GA organizations banding together and litigating this out of possible. They are making money off of publicly funded airports charging excessive unreasonable fees. This will come to an airport near you in any form not just ADSB tracking if we aren’t careful. It’s like a disease.

High-Tech Billing System Helps Love Field Collect New Landing Fees

A previous investment in an automated aircraft identification and billing system is paying new dividends at Dallas Love Field (DAL).

www.vector-us.com

 

[Pilot135pd]

What's the difference between not having it vs. not having it switched on? Same result.

I have it and do not have a switch to turn off - nor would I as I want to see and be seen - but don't see a difference in switching off vs. not having it.

I was going to write an analogy but this is so clear it's not worth analogies. The Regulation 14 CFR section 91.225(f ) says it. It's in black and white so it's not like it's not clear.

It's like questioning the Regulation that says that to fly the plane you need a pilot certificate. You don't question that one right? Same thing.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

That’s what it looks like

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/0e86fc_c1e51f9633d04d739a73b1ec873d8ca1~mv2.jpeg/v1/fill/w_600,h_686,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/0e86fc_c1e51f9633d04d739a73b1ec873d8ca1~mv2.jpeg

 

[jrs14855]

Literally everyone should have it, IMO. I think the regs requiring it in limited circumstance were a half measure that didn't go far enough for safety. There's no excuse for not having a transponder and radio in 2024 - they are easily battery powered. Tradition and expense aren't good enough reasons.


Agree with that. I bet foreflight will eventually incorporate landing fees if it becomes a large enough issue.

Oh a Sheeple.

 

[RV8JD]

Since ADS-B is not required outside Class A, Class B and Class C then how ...

That is not correct. Just to be clear, this is where ADS-B OUT is required in the US:

• Class A, B, and C airspace;
• Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
• Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
• Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
• Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.

And graphically:

 

[Majorpayne317641]

Landing Fees are coming… KDED , KOMN and KFIN in Florida have signed up to collect landing fees …$3 per 1000 lbs . The ADSB we all had to install is the tracker for billing.
Glad mine is a Uvavionics on my rudder ….. nav lights have a toggle

I did more research and they also have camera pods that take pictures of tail numbers in all weather at KDAL for example. They could use these methods at the Florida airports too.

 

[Pilot135pd]

That’s what it looks like

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/0e86fc_c1e51f9633d04d739a73b1ec873d8ca1~mv2.jpeg/v1/fill/w_600,h_686,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/0e86fc_c1e51f9633d04d739a73b1ec873d8ca1~mv2.jpeg

So to avoid getting tagged, wait until there are a few cloudy days and the batteries will be dead and it won't work.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

So to avoid getting tagged, wait until there are a few cloudy days and the batteries will be dead and it won't work.

Well if they are collecting 13% of the fees I’m sure they will have someone full time making sure those lenses are crystal clean and batteries charged! This is crazy. Never thought we would turn into Europe.

 

[skirting_virga]

At Dallas Love Field this same company literally has traffic cameras that take down tail numbers. Forget the ADSB debate, they will find a way to collect. The right way is AOPA and other GA organizations banding together and litigating this out of possible.

This is exactly my point and I totally agree. There seem to be some determined to hate on ADS-B as some evil plan, but the reality I see is that the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks and "they will find a way to collect" is the problem we're up against. Anything that can be monetized will be. We need to find a way to prevent it overall.

 

[jrs14855]

This is exactly my point and I totally agree. There seem to be some determined to hate on ADS-B as some evil plan, but the reality I see is that the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks and "they will find a way to collect" is the problem we're up against. Anything that can be monetized will be. We need to find a way to prevent it overall.

The benefits include two midairs between ADS B equipped airplanes in tower airspace. Has no one of the ADSB promoters not heard about all the airline near misses and screwups just in the last few months.

 

[dabney]

KSMO (infamous Santa Monica airport) has been charging landing fees for many years to discourage planes from landing there and it worked. They ( the city of Santa Monica) didn’t care if any planes came because they wanted to close the airport anyway. They also shortened the runway to prevent most biz jets from landing there . At least they didn’t bulldoze the runway like the city of Chicago did. Finally, after years of fighting between aviation advocates and local politicians supported by nearby homeowners, the FAA caved in and allowed the City to permanently close the airport X number of years in the future. Despite the City receiving federal funds requiring the airport to remain open in perpetuity, the X is a few years away now. Incidentally, KSMO was famous as the home of the DC-3 production before it became infamous.
Vector was the company that made a deal with the City to bill owners of planes that landed there. At that time I believe they were the first airport to use this system.
A prior post asked about how they know what your weight is since they charge by the pound. I flew my employer’s twin engine copter in there to drop off a pax one day. That took less than five minutes, didn’t even shut down. A little while later the company got a bill for that landing. I asked Vector where they got the weight they used to calculate the bill. They replied they looked it up in a “book”. The weight they used was the max gross weight . I was about 1200 pounds below that weight but it didn’t matter to them.

The Wide World of Sports vignette was a bonus to this discussion

 

[Majorpayne317641]

AOPA is very much involved....https://aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/september/04/florida-cities-county-prepare-to-impose-new-fees-on-airport-users

Yes, I work for AOPA. I'm also a long-time VAF supporter and a lifetime EAA member.

The landing fee issue is quietly spreading across the nation. We are working to address it at that scale, but in the meantime, pilots need to stay alert to airports/municipalities pursuing landing fees, and when they hear about it, alert AOPA and work with us to engage locally. One of the big challenges at this point is that most airports proposing landing fees are exempting their based aircraft, thereby cutting down on the local opposition. Obviously, if this trend were to spread unchecked, one day, your local airport would be the only one where you wouldn't pay fees (even those exemptions would probably go away eventually).

AOPA is not letting this go unchecked, but we can't do it alone. We are strong because of our members (Yes, that's a not-so-subtle suggestion to join, if you haven't already....no other organization is fighting landing fees and many other battles like AOPA is).

Can you spread more awareness through the AOPA YouTube channel and how locals can help in the matter?

 

[skirting_virga]

The benefits include two midairs between ADS B equipped airplanes in tower airspace. Has no one of the ADSB promoters not heard about all the airline near misses and screwups just in the last few months.

The midair I'm referring to in Colorado was a plane not in towered airspace (busy class E) not transmitting ADS-B. ADS-B out would almost certainly have prevented it.