The above was prefaced with lengthy solid discussion on why wheel landings were all around safer then full stall three pointers.
They are not generally all around safer in the least bit. I think you are the only one here who proposed that.
The above was prefaced with lengthy solid discussion on why wheel landings were all around safer then full stall three pointers.
They are not generally all around safer in the least bit. I think you are the only one here who proposed that.But lots of pilots are biased one way or the other. Nothing wrong with having a preference as long as your preference doesn't hinder your skills and your ability to handle the full envelope in other aircraft with different characteristics.
I am real novice at tailwheel flying, but in my tailwheel training in a Champ, we nearly always did 3-pointers. At the end of training we were coming down nicely and touched, mains down, pulled the stick back as the tail touched down, then a gust hit and up went the nose! The instructor assisted for a nice recovery. It was apparently right on that edge of flying and after planting the little wheel, the front end is at risk for a short period. That won't happen with a wheelie, but surely other things will. Transition training with M. Seager in the 7 was a lot more comfortable.
Rick,
The premise about safer wheel landings was not mine, it was right out of Stick and Rudder. I didn't word it properly, the discussion and why is in the book.
I gotcha. That may be one author's opinion, but in general the idea that one method of landing is safer than the other is really not up for debate among experienced tailwheel pilots. It's purely aircraft characteristics + pilot preference.
...it looks a little like a P-51, fly it like a P-51!
And finally from Stick and Rudder (1944)....The three-point landing is not the only way to get an airplane down. It is not even the best way.....the tail up "wheel" landing, made at high speed, is getting more attention from many pilots. It is the way airliners and "hot" Army ships are landed, but it is just as easy and just as suitable for the smaller lighter airplane.
Interesting videos Alan, but none of those guys were hot WWII pilots. They were civilians flying restored WWII airplanes many years later, certainly not spun up like guys flying combat missions every day in time of war.
Have your read "Stick and Rudder"?
What I do know, getting back to the discussion, is I have to fly the 8 in a manner that leaves feeling like I have a chance to survive the next flight.
Interesting read. I've been fortunate over the years to fly many different aircraft and to me they all land like, well, airplanes. Be on speed, arrest the sink and flare. I've witnessed so much stick pumping I thought there must be snakes in the cockpit. I've heard about how you had to push the 727 on. You don't have to carry power to touchdown, bump the power to arrest the sink, push to keep from spiking it, pump the stick or fight it down. All I've ever had to do is fly it like a plane. They ALL land very well if flown correctly and smoothly. Be it airline equipment, military, corporate ot our beloved GA, just fly it like an airplane. Smoothly.
It has been my experience over the years when I seen somene pumping the stick, they don't really know where the ground is.
Jerry,
I never flew the 727 but have close to 2000 hours at the panel watching guys fly it. The stretch was always flared with power on, if not it would not flare but hit the runway and drop all the masks in the back.
The "push on" was a technique in stretched airplanes to get the mains rising as they settled on the concrete, if done just right, passengers did not know they were on the ground. It worked well with the MD80, I did it if not fighting a gusty wind. The 80 was like the 727 also in that power was necessary going into flare, or it would not flare, a characteristic of airplanes that were stretched from original designs. The early DC9's flew like real airplanes and guys loved it.
Getting back to the 8, there is a point in landing where the drag curve really goes up quickly if the the machine is close to stall speed. No amount of back pressure will arrest the sink, but just a bit of power will. When flying into the Troy airpark from the west, I learned the hard landing way to add just a little power going into flare after a 60-65 knot power off glide when clear of trees.
Technique that works.
Your comment about pumping stick is interesting. There are serious articles written about doing it. I've flown with a guy who as CFI taught it to students who were having trouble getting their act together. It is a substitute for not really knowing what's going on.
I don't know if he still uses that as a teaching/learning method.
Interesting videos Alan, but none of those guys were hot WWII pilots. They were civilians flying restored WWII airplanes many years later, certainly not spun up like guys flying combat missions every day in time of war.
David,
Just for fun here's a couple more vintage videos from WWII:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duyMuyA69yg Very nice 3-point landing by a P-51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi9i6k5NBTY Skip ahead to about 10:50. The first P-51 does a wheel landing and the next 4 or so land 3-point.
so once the mains touch...and you put forward pressure on stick ..do you continue to push it forward until the tail drops, and let tail drop when it wants to?
I'm still at the infant stage with crosswind landings, however yesterday with as little as 8 kt direct Xwind I found that tail low I was almost out of rudder, or should I say I was pushing almost to the firewall during the dance. The second landing I kept the tail a smidgen higher seemed to help.
I understand what was said...that if the tail is high that a gust could send you ditch bound.....still learning.
P.S. I have found the ditch once, scared the bejesus out of me.
When you xperts post landing techniques, I'm all ears then I apply what I read......seems to be many different opinions that all work or that you can walk away from.
Master Lander seems way off in the distance somewhere, but I can't wait until I can relax a bit and quit chocking the life out of the infinity grip on xwind's.
With 350 hours on my 8, I really have no idea why anyone came up with those rudder pedal extensions in the first place. Maybe really small feet?
With 350 hours on my 8, I really have no idea why anyone came up with those rudder pedal extensions in the first place. Maybe really small feet?
FWIW I have rocket steering device and like it. The airplane is easy to taxi and getting tail wheel locked is readily felt.
I subconsciously am on brakes, I hear that chirp, chirp, often. It may have been factor in keeping the thing on runway yesterday.
And, Stan, ex Subby guy, I did not feel all that comfortable at 100 hours either. But it is coming together as I close in on 200, went over 190 yesterday.
The deal with getting hit by cross wind just as airplane is transitioning from tail up, declining rudder authority and no TW steering, to tail down is an envelope we have to watch for. A steady or nearly steady state wind is not too difficult to manage but yesterday the wind sock just off of end of 8L at Spirit showed wind straight down runway. It was not so a 1000' down the runway. Its that unexpected gust that really gets your attention.
Some here may be familiar with the RV-8 that went off into ditch at Spruce Creek 5 or 6 years ago. The guy flying it was friend Jim Corley from TWA and thats what happened to him, just as he was crossing an open taxi area and as tail was coming down, was hit by gust and off the airplane went into a drainage ditch. It was a serious wreck with fuel leak, he said sure glad there was no fire, had trouble getting canopy open. (Jim passed away not long ago, he was careful about health but something got to him anyhow, at least was not an airplane)
All just part of the learning curve mastering the beast.![]()
The brakes on the RV-8 are up to the task. Returning from Sun-N-Fun several years ago, I landed at 52F with a gusting direct crosswind of 30K.
After touchdown, the tires sounded like this: Chirp.....Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp ...Chirp, but the Doll remained on the centerline of a narrow runway.
Flew most all day Sunday, landing...landing...landing until the wind fear subsided. I ended the long day with the RV grin, next hurdle is to get the courage to go out and do a loop![]()
Good show Stan.
Logged 200.1 total in the 8 as of yesterday and am still learning to land the beast but not all tensed up.
The wind has been very squirrelly lately so wheel landings have been necessary. But I do get a very tail low landing now and then and it is better for sure if wind permits it.
A high wing experimental tail dragger got wrecked landing here yesterday due to wind about an hour after I quit. He was on news at 5 pm sitting sideways on runway with one main gear collapsed.
I'm following thie thread with interest because "process" has been the way it's been for me for the last 2.5 years with my Lancair. I started landing very conservatively at 85 Kts...then 8O Kts...then 78 Kts. I would always "fly it down to the ground" with a little power rather than landing on the mains first with the nose up. My goal has been NOT to break the airplane that I worked so long on. The last thing I want to do is drop it in from 24" and see the gear come up through the top of the wing.It is more "process than art"![]()
I'm following thie thread with interest because "process" has been the way it's been for me for the last 2.5 years with my Lancair. I started landing very conservatively at 85 Kts...then 8O Kts...then 78 Kts. I would always "fly it down to the ground" with a little power rather than landing on the mains first with the nose up. My goal has been NOT to break the airplane that I worked so long on. The last thing I want to do is drop it in from 24" and see the gear come up through the top of the wing.
I don't know what I did differently the other day, but somehow I made a Cessna-style landing where I kept pulling the nose up until she finally set down gently on the mains. The wheels didn't kiss the asphalt until 60 KIAS - well below my normal 70 KIAS touchdown speed and also the dirty stall speed in my airplane. My AoA was going off in my headset. I need to see if I can pull that off again reliably because I sure don't have the short field capability that you RV guys have. My shortest landing so far has been 2,500'.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rpsqbo77bqk9nru/Wheel Landing 60 Kts.mp4?dl=0
I tried to get our airport manager to give us a grass strip. They tore up one of our old runways and turned it back into open grass land. All thats needed is to smooth it out and keep it mowed. The airport manager said she wouldn't do it because it had to get FAA approval and it was too much red tape.Every airport should have a grass runway.
I've enjoyed reading this thread and watching the videos.
I now know I am not alone in the initial ability to land my RV-6 without bouncing.
I've been struggling with landing 2' in the air during my transition training. It's frustrating because I feel like I'm just repeating my mistakes. I can't seem to find a good reference to my altitude once I start the round-out, and I'm consistently over-controlling and hunting for the ground on final (this is in Mike Seager's RV7). I'm confident I'll get it figured out, but man it's frustrating right now.
I've been struggling with landing 2' in the air during my transition training. It's frustrating because I feel like I'm just repeating my mistakes. I can't seem to find a good reference to my altitude once I start the round-out, and I'm consistently over-controlling and hunting for the ground on final (this is in Mike Seager's RV7). I'm confident I'll get it figured out, but man it's frustrating right now.
Just curious - where did you by your strakes?Ive have my RV 8 for 2 years...3 points were always challenging...then my buddy told me about Strakes..i installed them....WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!!!! MUCH MUCH easier to land!! HIGHLY RECOMMEND them!!
Ive have my RV 8 for 2 years...3 points were always challenging...then my buddy told me about Strakes..i installed them....WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!!!! MUCH MUCH easier to land!! HIGHLY RECOMMEND them!!