[Toobuilder]

Go get some time in a -9 and then we'll chat.

 

[apkp777]

Anyhow, back to landing a .9.... One thing that messes folks up is that in cruise there is the distinct nose down flight attitude, but when you slow, it is noticeably nose high. I find that if I roll in some flaps as soon as I can the sight picture is more uniform. Also at 55kts (1.3Vso) It actually comes down pretty quick. At 65 not at all.

 

[Sig600]

Go get some time in a -9 and then we'll chat.

Really? Get past a private pilots licence, spend a few years in aviation safety, maybe get a CFI and instruct for a few thousand hours, have a few dozen emergencies, lose a dozen friends to entirely preventable accidents to poor piloting technique (the basis of this dialogue), put about a million miles in your logbook.... Maybe then you'll realize this should have never warranted a discussion. After all, it's your safety that Pierre, myself, and several others here have been talking about.

 

[rvmills]

So Sig and TB, wanna call a knock-it-off to this 1v1 dogfight yet? At some point you'll be outta missles, chaff and flares, and then what'll we talk about...maybe a Rocket guy trying to land a 9?

I'm a "sort-of-Rocket guy" with the clipped-wing Super Six, and have flown both a 9 and a 9A, both with FP props...fully checked out in the 9A and have even given a little pinch-hitter "dual" in it.

With regards to your ride-the-buffet down technique, respectfully, I'm in the don't try this at home camp Mike (more on that later), but I understand what you're saying about the docile approach and stall characteristics of a 9/9A. Here's a comparison...

At idle, my S6 will come down like a turd off a tall moose when the prop goes flat...do it at slow speed, and it's really impressive. Do it on final with a big headwind, and its eye-watering how fast the runway gets big.

On the other side is the 9. When guccidude1 checked me out, he just laughed when I got high, as I tried to pull the throttle out of the panel ("this can't be idle!"). Those were tears of laughter, right Dan!?!?

I'd agree with the statement that to fly a well-planned and executed normal approach in a 9, speed is important, timing the flap configuration is important, and the difference between 55 and 65 knots is significant in the float factor. I'd also say it slips quite nicely too. Landings are really nice in a 9/9A, and the nose can be held off nicely in the 9A. Still trying to fly nice, consistent wheelies and three pointers in the 9 though...especially 3 pointers...it just wants to fly...more practice needed (ahem, Greg! )

I had a huge runway to work with during my checkout, so I had it easier than Bill's Rocket buddy. But we challenged each other with spot work...and I probably could use some more work there...its all in the approach set up, IMHO.

Hopefully that set up work will preclude the need for the ride-the-buffet style approach. Could it be done in a 9/9A?...probably. Is there risk?...yep...beware your coordination...feet are critical here. I think some pretty good points about the possible dangers have been made, and you've made it clear its not a normal approach. Years ago I was also shown how to ride buffet and keep her straight in a J3 Cub at altitude, though its not a technique I'd use in the pattern. Miss with the rudder close to the ground doing this in any airplane, and its potentially life-altering.

Maybe we can all agree that we should be really cautious about what techniques we use near the ground, whether it be something with a more critical wing or a nice, docile RV-9.

One thing I did come away with (back to Bill's OP) is that the 9 really is a great cruiser, is fun in the pattern, and is just a joy to fly. Kinda makes ya want to put the ol' XM Radio on and chill all the way to where you're going, and then smile when you put so little gas in when you get there (said that last part for Dan! ) Those of you with 9's know it and love it...those of you building one will!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[Sig600]

At this point its beyond TB (like trying to get someone with cancer to stop smoking), but making sure any low timers out there reading this, dont try it. Nasty you know I've had nothing but free time at the Q the last few weeks... This is a good break from AFN and those stupid commercials, sadly... I lose wifi for the forseeable future here in 42 minutes. See you guys when I get back!

Oh, and don't die with bombs on your jet... Winchester is for quitters... Never hit the ramp on speed.... And any other cliches I missed.

 

[MC2]

I'm a 9 guy. I got my PPL in Oct 09. I bought my 9 in July of last year. It's a fixed pitch 9A with an O-320. I took delivery of the plane in Louisville Ga. and this old crop-duster taught me how to fly it. At that time I had almost 50 hours in the logbook. 6 of those hours were from 1971 in a 150, the rest were in a 172. I had flown about 10 hours in the past 9 months since getting my license. I had never flown in ANY RV before. It took that old boy near bout 3 hours to learn me how to fly that 9. So that's me...

My first impression of the 9 was how well it flew. It flew well fast, it flew well slow. Stalls were benign and straight ahead. Stall onset was preceded by a slight buffeting and recovery was simply a matter of easing off the backpressure and gassing it. Slips, with or without flaps were nice too. A slip at slower airspeeds was pretty darn effective at dumping altitude. It took me a little time to learn to slow her down in the pattern, but really it was all about energy management.

Since then I have flown my 9 about 120 hours and a lot of that has been spent in the pattern or practicing maneuvers, including stalls. An ole boy was kidding me the other day that all I ever do is takeoff and land. I have wore out a set of new tires in the past year.

My landing technique is to be doing about 100 mph in downwind. Elevator trim is neutral. Abeam the numbers I pull the power all the way out and let her start to slow down. At this point I have already decided how I am going to execute the approach. I never re-trim, I just vary back pressure to manage the airspeed until touchdown. I use flaps or slips as required to increase drag and control the angle. Be it a shallow no flap approach, or a steep approach with flaps and a slip or two, I don't touch the power again until touchdown. If I have to add power, that means I screwed up. Usually it's 80 on base, 70 on final, and touchdown on or just beyond the numbers at something between 50 and 60 mph. So that's the way I land a FP 9A.

Could I shoot an approach at just above stall speed? Yep, probably. Would I? Nope. You see, about 99.9% of the time, TJ (my wife) is in the right seat. And I really like her a lot. Flying, like a lot of things in life, carrys with it a certain about of risk. I have spent my life doing things most people would classify as high risk. I'm still here, so I guess that means I'm fairly good at mitigating risk. I'm going to continue to try to stay at least 2 to 3 consecutive screw-up's away from killing myself, y'all can do what you want...

 

[Toobuilder]

So Sig and TB, wanna call a knock-it-off to this 1v1 dogfight yet?...

Absolutely!

If I've been an advocate of anything in this thread it's keeping the -9 the focus.

Unfortunately, this thread reminds me how often this board goes from an exchange of ideas to a popularity contest/social event. Like many here, I?m one who is looking to exchange actual information so that I can learn or help others learn. Also, like others, I take a very skeptical view of internet experts and their online resume when they cannot or will not back up their opinion with a reasonable explanation and instead resort to a personal attack. In short, the number of people who can wield the ?because I said so? card over me is pretty small. I don?t care if you?re Chuck Yeager; if you ?call me out? by professing an opinion that conflicts with my actual experience, then you should at least have the courtesy to engage in a pointed, rational discussion about it.

Is flying slower than 1.3 in the pattern higher risk? Yes it is, but so is landing in a crosswind, on a "1 way" strip in Idaho, or a sandbar in Alaska. Higher risk does not automatically mean "death sentence" or "poor judgment". People can wave the "protect the innocent newbie" flag all they want, but if we can't discuss anything even slightly outside the norm without it turning into a dogpile, then this forum really is limited in its usefulness as an information exchange.

Back to the -9...

 

[clarkefarm]

Vertical speed fully stalled

Anybody held a 9 fully stalled, keeping it straight with rudder, to see what sort of vertical speed develops ?
Would something like this be a possibility for an engine fire which would not extinguish with speed ?
I am reminded of a story told to me by an older ex-ag then ex-heavy driver.
A long time ago there was a very proficient ag pilot in SE Australia who had a small drinking problem. Drank a bottle of whiskey during the course of the day between loads and slept in the cockpit while others were eating lunch etc.
Used to borrow a Tiger Moth at weekends and fly down to Melbourne whatever the weather. Didn't concern him if it was IMC. Just used to fly on top until he was over the bay (dead reckoning) then spin it down through the cloud, recovering when he saw the water and making his way to the local GAAP airfield. Probably not taught in flying school.
I have a 9A and agree if you get below 55 kt with power off you are setting up for a carrier landing. I do have the luxury of a cockpit adjustable prop with 22 degrees of reverse pitch which can be used at round out. Makes a nose down, power off approach at 60+ Kts easy and you get a really good look at the trees and fence at the approach end of the paddock. Oh! and keeps the weight off the nosewheel if its a bit rough as I don't need to brake.

Rupert
9A with NSI based Subaru EJ25
NW of Melbourne, Australia

 

[Toobuilder]

Anybody held a 9 fully stalled, keeping it straight with rudder, to see what sort of vertical speed develops ?

Yes, many, many times. I often perform this demonstration to pilots new to the -9. I get up nice and high (for safety, AND so that we can spend a good bit of time evaluating the condition), pull into a stall and hold the stick in my gut. With the -9 I fly, it will not fully stabilize with the flaps up no matter how long it is held in the condition. Flaps down on the other hand stabilizes rapidly. I've never comitted the actual decent rate to memory, but it is not nearly as fast as other airplanes I've done this with.

...Would something like this be a possibility for an engine fire which would not extinguish with speed ?
Rupert

The -9 is the easiest airplane I've ever flown in this unusual condition, but it still takes a fair amount of concentration to keep the airplane from falling off on a wing. As much as I've done this thing, I would not want to try it while on fire.

 

[Greg Arehart]

With the -9 I fly, it will not fully stabilize with the flaps up no matter how long it is held in the condition.

I've been following this thread and this morning (glorious, calm day) I thought I would try the "hold the stall" just to increase my awareness of the airplane (at 4000 agl, of course). Scared the pejeesus out of my wife after about 2 seconds (she is also a pilot, so aware of how airplanes work). Absolutely would not stabilize with no flaps. She wouldn't let me try it again.

I'm not weighing in on the heated debate regarding safety and using it in landing, but just pointing out that if anyone is going to try this, ABSOLUTELY start with plenty of altitude and be comfortable with a bucking airplane!

Will I try it again? Probably, as I think it certainly is a good exercise in understanding the limits of the airplane and making me a better pilot, but it will be by myself, with plenty of altitude.

cheers,
greg

 

[Toobuilder]

Good point Greg,

While it is pretty benign once it settles down, this may be an uncomfortable ride if you are not used to aerobatics or even stalls. Do it alone (first), or at least fully brief the copilot that it's going to be a little bit of a roller coaster ride at first.

As you probably found out, it porpoises with flaps up - Stall, recover; stall recover... Flaps down however, the airplane simply shudders in the stall. ANY relaxing of the back pressure will allow the same stall, recover; stall, recover behavior as with the flaps up. The only way to make it settle down is to bring the stick to the stop and hold it there. Keep the ailerons centered and pick up a low wing with rudder. In my demonstration of this, I get high enough so that I can hold it in this condition for at least 30 seconds. Pretty soon you will find that you can not only keep wings level with rudder alone, but do significant heading changes with a fair amount of precision.

Also, once you have it all figured out, simply relax the stick (no power), and take note how little effort is required to get the wing fully flying again. I find it is a dramatic learning tool to illustrate not only where the stall is (by feel), but to also train your body to recover. Eventually, you will be able to feel when you are getting slow without even looking at the airspeed indicator. It may save your bacon when "eyes out" in the pattern someday. It has for me.

 

[Andrew M]

C.G.?

Mike,
My understanding of FWD C.G. limits is determined by elevator effectiveness for either stall characteristics, and or nose gear strength and pitch authority for landings. Aft limits determined by the relationship between center of lift and C.G.(stability) The airplanes that I have got to know behave differently when approaching the stall "gently" at different C.G. loadings. Is this true with the -9?

 

[Toobuilder]

Andrew, my expertise is not aerodynamics, but my reading on the matter is in basic agreement with yours. The FWD CG limit is imposed by the power of the stab in the most unfavorable flight condition. In this case its flaps down, prop windmilling, and low airspeed. The stab has to have enough power to round out and flare the airplane.


That said, I have stalled the -9 with two big guys in front and solo; full of fuel and light, and have not noticed a significant difference in how the airplane behaves in the stall. I also have not been looking to identify and quantify the differences either. Rate of climb and approach speed are quite different with the weights, of course

 

[Vlad]

Great thread Bill created thank you. I am a low timer and enjoy reading it a lot of food for thought. Keep talking gentlemen.

 

[N941WR]

Great thread Bill created thank you. I am a low timer and enjoy reading it a lot of food for thought. Keep talking gentlemen.

Happy to help Vlad!

 

[N941WR]

Now for another landing technique

When coming in high, a pilot has a few options. 1. Go around, 2. Slip, and 3. Raise the nose.

By taking option 3, you can slow the plane without stalling it and it will develop a high sink rate. Once back on the proper glide slope, lower the nose and resume your normal approach speed.

This is just another arrow in your approach quiver.

 

[MC2]

When coming in high, a pilot has a few options. 1. Go around, 2. Slip, and 3. Raise the nose.

By taking option 3, you can slow the plane without stalling it and it will develop a high sink rate. Once back on the proper glide slope, lower the nose and resume your normal approach speed.

This is just another arrow in your approach quiver.

And there is nothing wrong with option 1 either. It's something you should practice anyway and it can be fun, depending on how you execute it. But you boys already know that don't ya?

 

[N941WR]

And there is nothing wrong with option 1 either. It's something you should practice anyway and it can be fun, depending on how you execute it. But you boys already know that don't ya?

Nothing at all with going around! Thanks for the reminder; I wanted to post the following on that topic.

The other day, while working on my -9, a chapter member came by to see what I was doing. During our conversation he started bragging that he "NEVER" does a go around in his 172.

My reply was along the lines that I do them without shame. (Heck, I did one this evening because of a very gusty crosswind. On the second bounce I applied full power and went around. The second attempt wasn't great but I did get it on the ground without bending anything.)

I?m not sure I want to fly with someone who brags they never do go arounds.

 

[Toobuilder]

I certainly don't think there's any shame in a go around. I'm amazed at how many people push a landing even when it's obvious it just aint gonna work.

I think we've all seen the tendency to push the nose over and dive toward the runway to try make it land. This always results in lots of extra energy that needs to be bled off over the surface. Maybe you have enough pavement, maybe not. The opposite (slowing down) results in burning the "extra" energy right up front in the form of a zoom climb, or a delay in descent. While this does get you steeper glide, you also have nothing left if you take it all the way down to the ground. Your energy bank account is empty. In this case, you need to take out a loan (add throttle), or make sure you start to accelerate back to normal approach speed while you still have some altitude.

My example of taking it all the way to the ground was just me having a little fun - not advocating a new or better way to fly an approach. It's a balancing act that is fairly easy in the -9, but certainly higher risk.

 

[Finley Atherton]

When coming in high, a pilot has a few options. 1. Go around, 2. Slip, and 3. Raise the nose.

By taking option 3, you can slow the plane without stalling it and it will develop a high sink rate. Once back on the proper glide slope, lower the nose and resume your normal approach speed.

This is just another arrow in your approach quiver.

Here is part of an article where Ken Scott from Vans demonstrated the factory 9A.

Fin 9A

"Before we left McMinnville, Ken demonstrated a couple of different landing techniques. He flew downwind at seventy knots, holding altitude, and turned base at the runway threshold, still at pattern altitude of 1,200 feet. From here, with full flaps and an approach speed of about 52 knots, he was able to land the airplane just past the numbers. When it looked like we were still a bit high on short final, he simply raised the nose and slowed the airplane to about 50 knots. The descent rate increased, but as we neared the ground a small application of power arrested the sink and we touched gently".

 

[rvmills]

Will I try it again? Probably, as I think it certainly is a good exercise in understanding the limits of the airplane and making me a better pilot, but it will be by myself, with plenty of altitude.

cheers,
greg

Greg, are you up for trying it again with company? The no flap ride sounds like the behavior of the J3, which of course has no flaps. It would be interesting to see it both flaps up and down.

Guccidude and I were talking about this today, and his experience (and what he taught me in the checkout) is similar to what has been said quite a bit. Fast can be a bit hard to work off, but can be done (slips, slow and then get back on your desired glidepath/flightpath). Better to do that early, of course. Slowing further does generate a higher sink rate (as with many aircraft).

Practicing the "in-buffet-glide" at altitude is a meaningful exercise. I would think it'd be a good way to get familiar with the regime, and my personal technique would be to stay at tad on the fast side of that, and avoid the regime if I were landing. Kinda sounds like what Fin was describing as well.

Just thinking out loud here too, and it would seem prudent to practice at forward and aft cg loadings, so you can also determine minimum speeds that will allow you enough elevator authority to keep the nosewheel off (9A) or keep you from getting the big bounce (9).

On goin' around..."those that have, and those that will"...no stigma attached. Better to come back to fight another day, eh! At work it's really expensive...thankfully I got my first out of the way as a proby FO, and have done it from both seats...just part of the job. I work hard not to do it (work or RV), but its certainly better to have executed a well-flown go-around, than a crapola landing. And you get to buy your buddies cold ones...what's so bad about that!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[ArVeeNiner]

Ailerons effective in a stall?

I took transition training in a 6A with Mike Seager earlier this year. We did some stalls and as I was trained years ago, I used rudder to raise any wing drops. Decades ago, I inadvertently used ailerons during a stall in a Cessna 150 with my instructor at my side. I was amazed at how fast I went from looking at the sky to looking at the ground!

Anyway, my recover in the 6 was sloppy but it worked. Mike showed me how to do it with minimal feet...he just did a quick wiggle of the stick and we were flying again. I did the same and it worked. He said that on a 6, the ailerons remain effective in a stall. Is that the same on a 9?

I worry that if I "unlearn" using my feet I might one day get into a stall with a plane that will bite if ailerons are used which would be bad. Any thoughts?

 

[gasman]

I took transition training in a 6A with Mike Seager earlier this year. We did some stalls and as I was trained years ago, I used rudder to raise any wing drops. Decades ago, I inadvertently used ailerons during a stall in a Cessna 150 with my instructor at my side. I was amazed at how fast I went from looking at the sky to looking at the ground!

Anyway, my recover in the 6 was sloppy but it worked. Mike showed me how to do it with minimal feet...he just did a quick wiggle of the stick and we were flying again. I did the same and it worked. He said that on a 6, the ailerons remain effective in a stall. Is that the same on a 9?

I worry that if I "unlearn" using my feet I might one day get into a stall with a plane that will bite if ailerons are used which would be bad. Any thoughts?

Why would you not use the proven way to stop the stall of any fixed wing aircraft??.......
and that would be....... release the back pressure or move the stick forward.

I guess Mike was showing you how to stay in the stall and avoid a spin entry.

 

[rvmills]

Like Warren, I'd recommend not losing your skill at basic, tried and true techniques. Keep the ball in the middle, and a stall is no big deal. Know how to stop the stall and recover (decrease angle of attack).

As you saw in the 150, as in many aircraft, putting in an aileron input in an incipient or fully developed stall invites adverse yaw, and stall + yaw (often) = spin.

I'm sure Mike's demonstration of the effectiveness of the RV ailerons in a stall was a good demo, and perhaps adds a tool to your chest when practicing stalls or the aforementioned near-buffet glide...at altitude. Sounds like it worked for what you were doing, and I'll bet Mike had the ball in the middle too! So IMHO, coordinated flight is your friend in this regime, and that requires rudder...even if its subtle. I'm definitely not questioning Mike's training...it's all about getting to know your plane.

After leaving active duty I did some instructing for a bit (as I had done in college), and during the checkout, the very "seasoned" instructor had me do some stalls. He just watched quietly as on the first one I started to drop the left wing (ball not in the middle), but caught it with rudder in the recovery, and the others went OK. He commented that he wanted to see if my "young, whipper-snapper, jet-jock feet had gone to sleep"! Then he smiled and said, "you actually still know how to fly!" I considered it a compliment from an aviation elder statesman...and a good lesson!

Doing these exercises are great confidence builders. They also build muscle memory. What I believe you hope to do is develop habit patterns that will serve you well in places like that bumpy, distracted approach turn, when you're overshooting and overbanking, and maybe have a bit of a skid input in, then some opposite aileron to stop the overbank, then getting a little low so the nose is higher than you want and speed is slower than you planned, and...

...you get the ball back in the middle while decreasing AOA, break the stall, level the wings and go around...then land uneventfully and change your flight suit.

Hope it doesn't sound preachy...good discussion!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[ArVeeNiner]

Gasman, where did all that red come from?

Let me rephrase, if ailerons are used to correct a slight wing drop on an RV9, will things get worse like in a 150?

I honestly don't think I can retrain my feet to not do anything in a stall. I do have to unlearn the heavy feet that I've developed while flying my old plane, an Aeronca Sedan. That plane had quite a bit of adverse yaw so you had to lead a bit with rudder in turns. Not so with he RVs I've flown.

 

[terrykohler]

Use Your Feet

Kelly:
You don't need as much rudder input while turning with a 9 because it has Frise ailerons. However, I would rather you continue to use your feet in a stall. While you may continue to have some limited aileron authority, you should be using the rudder to keep the nose pointed ahead.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

 

[Toobuilder]

...Let me rephrase, if ailerons are used to correct a slight wing drop on an RV9, will things get worse like in a 150?...

On more than a few flight test reports you read, the author will comment that "the ailerons remain effective in a stall..." or something along those lines. While this may be more true with some airplanes than others, it has been drilled into my head by that the rudder remains the primary means to keep the wings level in a stall. You might be able to pick up a wing with the stick, maybe not, but the rudder should be your first (and instinctive) reaction to a low wing.

I don't know the answer to your question because as many times as I've stalled the -9, the stick stays centered. I suppose I should go try it and see what happens. However, even if the ailerons are effective in a stall, I have to wonder if a pilot would be setting himself up for a nasty experience in another airplane. After all, some airplanes will bite you when abused like that.

 

[Flyfalcons]

Once you break the stall you can use ailerons, before that keep them centered and use the rudder to keep the wings level.

 

[Sig600]

Flaps down however, the airplane simply shudders in the stall. ANY relaxing of the back pressure will allow the same stall, recover; stall, recover behavior as with the flaps up. The only way to make it settle down is to bring the stick to the stop and hold it there. Keep the ailerons centered and pick up a low wing with rudder. In my demonstration of this, I get high enough so that I can hold it in this condition for at least 30 seconds. Pretty soon you will find that you can not only keep wings level with rudder alone, but do significant heading changes with a fair amount of precision.

Andrew, my expertise is not aerodynamics

"a spin is an aggravated stall resulting in autorotation about the spin axis wherein the aircraft follows a corkscrew path. Spins can be entered unintentionally or intentionally, from any flight attitude and from practically any airspeed—all that is required is sufficient yaw rate while an aircraft is stalled. In either case, however, a specific and often counterintuitive set of actions may be needed for an effective recovery to be made. If the aircraft exceeds published limitations regarding spins, or is loaded improperly, or if the pilot uses incorrect technique to recover, the spin can lead to a crash.

In a spin, one or both wings are in a stalled condition, if both are stalled one wing will be in a deeper stall condition than the other.[1] This causes the aircraft to autorotate (yaw) towards the deeper-stalled wing due to its higher drag. Spins are also characterized by high angle of attack, low airspeed, and high rate of descent."

Not that rudder isn't the right answer for keeping the wings level, but holding backstick and adding rudder is the textbook method to enter a spin. Rudder is a tool to keep the wings level during recovery.

 

[Toobuilder]

...Not that rudder isn't the right answer for keeping the wings level, but holding backstick and adding rudder is the textbook method to enter a spin. Rudder is a tool to keep the wings level during recovery.

That's a little misleading in that there is no set deflection used... Just like trying to explain how much control input is required to maintain runway centerline - the correct answer is "whatever it takes". The theme here is that the rudder has a great deal of authority, especially with an airplane as benign as the -9. A fully developed stall in my Hiperbipe for example, requires a well timed quick stab (and release) of the rudder to full deflection to pick up the low wing. Further, with this airplane, it is not a matter of if it will depart, but when. I can usually hold it off for a couple of wing drop cycles, but eventually I get slightly out of phase with the wing drop and it will then spin. The -9, in contrast, behaves very nicely as long as some attempt at the proper inputs are made.

 

[Subwaybob]

Acrobatics - Arobatics one uses wings and engines, the other ropes, people, and running. Good catch!

Thanks Bill. I know this is off the subject but I cringe everytime someone uses Acro. You would think that the word Aero would be a dead give away. Anyway, thanks for posting it even though everyone will ignore it and keep making me cringe with all their Chinese ACRObats out there!

 

[David-aviator]

5,743 views and 80 posts on landing a 9, it can't be all that complicated.

PS The Cardinals won last night in Philly......

 

[MauiLvrs]

5,743 views and 80 posts on landing a 9, it can't be all that complicated.

It's in the RVator... "Like any other airplane..."
But you have to land it, not let it arrive ...

 

[clarkefarm]

Inverted ?

I am pretty sure that a 9 might still bite if provoked.
I have not tried it but recall reading a post here some years ago where the plane went inverted very quickly when stalled in a simulation of the classic skidding approach turn. In fact the pilot rolled right through to recover.
I guess also that spins in a 9 are probably not sanctioned (not aerobatic ?) but I gather spin recovery can also bring on a debate. I was taught power off, let go the stick and use rudder for however long it takes to stop the spin. The instructor was teaching in a Pitts S2A of which he had several and recounted how another owner had used the standard "push the stick forward" routine and the a/c had failed to recover until the pilot let go the stick to shield his face from the impending crash. Unfortunately it was by then too low to avoid hitting trees but both occupants survived.
Apparently the down elevator is capable of shielding the rudder from airflow whereas a floating elevator maximises it.
This technique was recommended for all spins including inverted. If in doubt about which rudder pedal to use it will be the one raised towards you.
I guess if you fly a 9 you never intend to be in this situation (especially if you have 20 gallons in wing tip tanks).
Rupert

 

[flyboy1963]

I've been following this thread and this morning (glorious, calm day) I thought I would try the "hold the stall" just to increase my awareness of the airplane (at 4000 agl, of course). Scared the pejeesus out of my wife after about 2 seconds (she is also a pilot, so aware of how airplanes work). Absolutely would not stabilize with no flaps. She wouldn't let me try it again.

I'm not weighing in on the heated debate regarding safety and using it in landing, but just pointing out that if anyone is going to try this, ABSOLUTELY start with plenty of altitude and be comfortable with a bucking airplane!

Greg,
funny how this thread just 'ended'. ...I just wanted to add that I experienced similar disconcerting action when my instructor ( also new to RV's) was checking me out in my new -9a.
He was flying, trying to hold it in a full-power, full-flap stall, as far as I can recall.
we were descending when it suddenly 'snapped' forward past vertical, pulling about -1.5g. He recovered, but took up about 500', and we didn't explore that regime further! His recommendation?...' don't stall it just for fun'.

So, is the -9 a pussycat? ....yes, when stroked gently.
Will it come down like a rock? ...yes, the sink rate becomes very high when slowed to near stall numbers. I personally find no need to 'ride the buffet' when it sinks plenty for my needs at 62 kts. IAS. ( ymmv)
My point in commenting is that it may not be a docile as some expect in extreme aerodynamic situations.
You have now become a test pilot.

 

[Toobuilder]

...I experienced similar disconcerting action when my instructor ( also new to RV's) was checking me out in my new -9a.
He was flying, trying to hold it in a full-power, full-flap stall, as far as I can recall...

...My point in commenting is that it may not be a docile as some expect in extreme aerodynamic situations...

I'd like to point out that the stall behavior that you and your inexperienced instructor observed was the result of a pretty extreme and unlikely flight condition. Stalled with full flaps AND full power is way more radical than a simple 1g power off stall.

I generally ease into the stall behavior of a new airplane a bit slower than you guys did, but good for you to go out and explore the envelope. However, I really can't agree that future stalls "for fun" should be avoided based on your single (and fairly radical) data point.

 

[N941WR]

C-152 Radical Stall Behavior

...He was flying, trying to hold it in a full-power, full-flap stall, as far as I can recall.
we were descending when it suddenly 'snapped' forward past vertical, pulling about -1.5g. He recovered, but took up about 500', and we didn't explore that regime further! His recommendation?...' don't stall it just for fun'...

Back when 152's could still be bought new I was working on my PPL. On my 2nd solo flight my instructor told me to go out and practice stalls. So, practice I did.

Power off stalls with full flaps, partial flaps, and no flaps. Then I moved on to power on stalls with no flaps, not a big deal, just like we had practiced.

Next up was a ?Bulked Landing Stall?, full flaps and full power. Starting from a slow approach speed with all 30* of flaps hanging out there, add full power and start a climb but keep it coming back. Just like we had never practiced before, that little 152 snapped over on its back quicker than you can imagine and I performed an inadvertent Split-S.

So, don?t think the RV-9 is the only plane that can exhibit this same behavior.

 

[luddite42]

He was flying, trying to hold it in a full-power, full-flap stall, as far as I can recall. we were descending when it suddenly 'snapped' forward past vertical, pulling about -1.5g. He recovered, but took up about 500', and we didn't explore that regime further! His recommendation?...' don't stall it just for fun'.

Can you say tailslide? He did not enter the stall properly - he likely had too much speed pulling into the power-on stall, got very steep and let it tailslide. The pendulum down would put you slightly negative. Lucky you didn't bend the flaps. If his conclusion was to not stall the airplane for fun, he needs a debrief, and a review of his experience and technique. A properly entered power-on stall with correct rudder usage will result in the nose dropping straight ahead very gently back to level flight (nose won't even drop below level flight attitude). It will not snap over, and you will lose little, if any altitude if done right.

 

[David-aviator]

Can you say tailslide? He did not enter the stall properly - he likely had too much speed pulling into the power-on stall, got very steep and let it tailslide. The pendulum down would put you slightly negative. Lucky you didn't bend the flaps. If his conclusion was to not stall the airplane for fun, he needs a debrief, and a review of his experience and technique. A properly entered power-on stall with correct rudder usage will result in the nose dropping straight ahead very gently back to level flight (nose won't even drop below level flight attitude). It will not snap over, and you will lose little, if any altitude if done right.

With full power on, the only way to stall an RV is with a high G load or very nose high attitude. It will not stall if anywhere near level flight as air speed remains well above stall speed - with or without flaps.

I tried one full power stall maneuver and broke it off when the attitude got so high, I thought it might snap on its back.

There is no possibility of a gentle stall, let it fall through the horizon and recover with full power on. I don't think we should be attempting it. The airplane as too much power to be doing this safely.

 

[Sig600]

I'd like to point out that the stall behavior that you and your inexperienced instructor observed was the result of a pretty extreme and unlikely flight condition. Stalled with full flaps AND full power is way more radical than a simple 1g power off stall.

I generally ease into the stall behavior of a new airplane a bit slower than you guys did, but good for you to go out and explore the envelope. However, I really can't agree that future stalls "for fun" should be avoided based on your single (and fairly radical) data point.

Watched a Piper Cherokee crash in 1996 on a go around, full flaps, full power. Hit the trees after 1/4 rotation. Killed all a wife, her mother, and her 2 kids.

 

[luddite42]

With full power on, the only way to stall an RV is with a high G load or very nose high attitude. It will not stall if anywhere near level flight as air speed remains well above stall speed - with or without flaps.

I've done it, I know it's nose high, but how you approach the power-on stall affects how nose high you end up, and your liklihood of whip stalling or tailsliding. Don't just slow down to 60, add full power and start pulling. Slow down to just about the buffet, feed in power, keep slowing down BELOW the power-off stall speed. Keep pulling and feeding in power until you've got full power. You should be able to stall the plane with full aft stick without whip stalling or tailsliding. You should not be climbing into the entry. Yes, it's a different approach than doing a power-on stall in a loaded 152.

 

[Toobuilder]

Watched a Piper Cherokee crash in 1996 on a go around, full flaps, full power...

Not saying it can't/doesn't happen... But full power and full flaps in any light airplane (especially an RV) is pretty far outside the bell curve for normal ops, even on a go around.

...And I'm not even saying it's unsafe to practice (never done it myself, but I will next time). My point was that it is a pretty extreme example of a stall for someone new to the airplane to jump right into - and not fair to then use that as the data point describing ALL stalls in the -9.

 

[Sig600]

Not saying it can't/doesn't happen... But full power and full flaps in any light airplane (especially an RV) is pretty far outside the bell curve for normal ops, even on a go around.

So is riding prestall buffet on final.

 

[rv7boy]

The END

Guys, this thread has run its course. I have closed it.