Anyone coming from the South-East I wouldn't even think of transitioning Chicago up the lake shore VFR. It's been IFR or LIFR here all day.
 
RNB said:
How is the breathing on the ground? AQI >300 according to grok, at some point that is a bigger issue
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Rummaged around the camper and found some a partial box of N-95 masks from COVID days, and decided to wear one. Don't like it one bit, just like I didn't like it 5 years ago, but this time -- it is possible to actually see and smell what is trying to get deep into the lungs. News media warnings here are cautioning about the smaller particles and potential adverse health effects. I had some fresh masks in a box, stashed deep in the camper. Have been giving to camp Scholler acquaintances, if they want one. Hopefully, it will clear up soon.
 
Any concerns about airplane air filter or injector issues? Wildlife smoke particles are typically in the 0.4-0.7 micron range (according to Google). That is pretty small.
 
I live about 60 miles north and it's been 2 miles or less viz for the last day and a half. Pretty miserable. Supposed to rain tomorrow or saturday and knock it down.

Last year we had similar smoke but a little over 3 miles viz. I had to fly for some reason and it was not fun. Even though it was technically vfr I ended up shooting the approach back into my own airport. As soon as I got more than 1000' agl the ground went away and it was for all intents and purposes IFR.
 
I’ve heard these conditions referred to as: V VFR. Virtual VFR. Reporting says VFR, but once airborne, it’s questionable, or perhaps Virtual. It’s VFR, but it’s not VFR. Head on a swivel…
 
coffeeguy said:
Bob, Is that tailwagger amber ok for the nosewheel flyers to drink? Maybe I should look for a bottle on Sunday at the HBP beer bash.
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It'll be there & available for nourishment (especially if my buddy who's flying my "out of state" six pack contribution can't get in past the smoke - he's AOG KRYV awaiting VFR).
Note to all... gate "guards" are on steroids this year.
They almost didn't let me thru to HBC to deliver aforementioned buddys electric scooter (ADA) - he needs it when he arrives.
 
I launched out of western Nevada at 0600 this morning - clear smooth sailing at 191 KTAS with no appreciable wind and clear skies at 15.5K all the way to southern Minnesota (one fuel stop in eastern Wyoming)….watching Oshkosh weather all the way. I called it before Sioux Falls, turned left, and went to Wadena (MN) where I had a very surprised sister who thought I’d be stopping by AFTER Oshkosh! Forecast for tomorrow makes later in the afternoon look like a possible option, but we’ll see. Sister number 2 in the Twin Cities better get the spare bedroom ready just in case! (Even though Myst is IFR equipped/capable, she is not yet checked out for cloud flying…..)

Paul
 
Ive been using the windy.com air quality forecast. Looks like friday afternoon into before lunch saturday is going to be the best weekend window. Sunday looks terrible but Monday looks good.
 
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be carefull if coming through Chicago today. Currently 3/4 mi. Wind shift will blow it out this afternoon, but comes with TS as well.
 
We are on the ground at dodge county because Osh arrival is ifr. Visibility coming up from Atlanta this morning wasn’t bad -probably 3 miles worst actual. We were at4500’ from Danville Il to here. Lots of ATIS were calling it lower, but it wasn’t bad at all, IMO.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
We are on the ground at dodge county because Osh arrival is ifr. Visibility coming up from Atlanta this morning wasn’t bad -probably 3 miles worst actual. We were at4500’ from Danville Il to here. Lots of ATIS were calling it lower, but it wasn’t bad at all, IMO.
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In Chicago they were calling it under a mile, but if you look up, it is clear blue sky. Something must be holding the smoke down at the surface.
 
Looks like Paul RON’d at Wadena, Mn (ADC) and made a 1.5 hr flight to Viroqua, Wi (Y51) this morning. I’m guessing he’s waiting on the viz to improve, or the traffic on the FISKE arrival to lessen, or perhaps to make sure the cameras at OSH are ready for his arrival! 🤓
P.S. Just checked the KOSH METAR…Viz 2-1/2 sm with Haze! But clearing skies expected in the pm.
 
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This is also a good source of information.

fire.airnow.gov

AirNow Fire and Smoke Map

This map shows fine particle pollution (PM2.5) from wildfires and other sources. It provides a public resource of information to best prepare and manage wildfire season. Developed in a joint partnership between the EPA and USFS.
fire.airnow.gov fire.airnow.gov
 
KOSH is open. Conga line formed.
 

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We did the Portage bridge to Fisk thing twice, got turned around twice because of people passing and cutting in front of us when we were a mile or so in trail (Fisk was asking for 2 miles in trail l). Got cut off/passed by 3 rv’s, two navions, a Cessna and an Aa1 tail dragger.

Landed at WisconsinDells for fuel and rest.
 
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wsquare said:
I’ve heard these conditions referred to as: V VFR. Virtual VFR. Reporting says VFR, but once airborne, it’s questionable, or perhaps Virtual. It’s VFR, but it’s not VFR. Head on a swivel…
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In 2024 flew back to Colorado in the smoke. 8500msl technically vfr. No horizon and 95degrees. 4 out of 6 hours holding heading and altitude ( no auto pilot) that was going to be my last time flying to OSH but guess what..launching early Sunday! 🫣
 
Kyle Boatright said:
We did the Portage bridge to Fisk thing twice, got turned around twice because of people passing and cutting in front of us when we were a mile or so in trail (Fisk was asking for 2 miles in trail l). Got cut off/passed by 3 rv’s, two navions, a Cessna and an Aa1 tail dragger.

Landed at WisconsinDells for fuel and rest.
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What the heck is with the 2 mile in trail, that's insane!
Recipe for disaster.
Pretty sure notam says 1/2 mile.
Someone needs to wake up the guys in the tower.
 
Walt said:
What the heck is with the 2 mile in trail, that's insane!
Recipe for disaster.
Pretty sure notam says 1/2 mile.
Someone needs to wake up the guys in the tower.
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They had pushed it to 2 miles because of visibility from the tower. Probably created more risk than leaving it at a half mile.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
We did the Portage bridge to Fisk thing twice, got turned around twice because of people passing and cutting in front of us when we were a mile or so in trail (Fisk was asking for 2 miles in trail l). Got cut off/passed by 3 rv’s, two navions, a Cessna and an Aa1 tail dragger.

Landed at WisconsinDells for fuel and rest.
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Its really sad that there are so many disrespectful people n our community. Always like to think we are a bit different and a cut above the average trash driving on the highway. Sadly not the case.

The whole osh conga line thing is based upon folks following the guidelines. One of these days one of these jerks is going to create a serious accident. Then we will say, remember the good old days when we didn’t need a reservation and everyone was able to come to osh? Continually abusing this system will someday create a change and that will mean a whole bunch less people being able to fly there. I can here it now: you let 400 planes line up single file for 100 miles with no controls? Were you crazy?
 
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lr172 said:
Its really sad that there are so many disrespectful people n our community. Always like to think we are a bit different and a cut above the average trash driving on the highway. Sadly not the case.

The whole osh conga line thing is based upon folks following the guidelines. One of these days one of these jerks is going to create a serious accident. Then we will say, remember the good old days when we didn’t need a reservation and everyone was able to come to osh? Continually abusing this system will someday create a change and that will mean a whole bunch less people being able to fly there. I can here it now: you let 400 planes line up single file for 100 miles with no controls? Were you crazy?
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Yawn.

No idea what the posters plane was. However, one of the EAA seminars on safely arriving had the presenter talk about passing slow planes when there was a gap ahead. I was surprised but had filed it as pseudo legit aka not in the letter of the law but what was really done.
 
Giving this some added thought. If on average, aircraft are split evenly at Fisk - half to 9/27 and half to 18/36R, this would result in an average of 4 miles between them as they approach the runway. At an average speed of 100 mph (for ease of calculation), this would be an average of about 2.5 minutes between aircraft. Unclear if this is what the controllers wanted, but on the surface it seems like a fairly long time between landing aircraft, and not sure if this is the optimal spacing for the conditions.
 
Miles in trail on the 1800' 90 knot FISK has to take into account the actual arrival rate of the other flows:
2300' 135 knot FISK
IFR arrivals
Warbird arrivals
Go arounds
Departures
Runway crossings



In general for the 27/36 configuration
RWY 27 has
FISK arrivals
IFR arrivals
Departures
Runway crossings
27 Go arounds

RWY 36L
FISK arrivals

RWY 36R
FISK arrivals
36L/R Go arounds
Warbirds
 
Anyone glance at the flight trackers about 19Z Friday and notice the stacks in 1/2 mile trail starting from UNU and RYV and otber near fields and the large return to the west lineup from north of the lakes?

Yick/yikes. Zero chance hearing 2 miles gave room to drift back- was that on ATIS? How far out could one pick that up this year? Glad I skipped out the day enjoying a S. WI fly in..
 

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lr172 said:
Its really sad that there are so many disrespectful people n our community. Always like to think we are a bit different and a cut above the average trash driving on the highway. Sadly not the case.

The whole osh conga line thing is based upon folks following the guidelines. One of these days one of these jerks is going to create a serious accident. Then we will say, remember the good old days when we didn’t need a reservation and everyone was able to come to osh? Continually abusing this system will someday create a change and that will mean a whole bunch less people being able to fly there. I can here it now: you let 400 planes line up single file for 100 miles with no controls? Were you crazy?
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I’m with you Larry!

It was true and utter chaos yesterday when the balloon went up and everyone dove for Endeavor Bridge form all over western Wisconsin. It was not pur pilot community’s finest hour. The latest “scam” is calling you and your buddies a “flight of ten” or a “flight of five” when you’re actually just a bunch of airplanes in quarter mile trail. That’s not a formation arricval with a wingman (or two) - its an attempt to game the system - one that simply didn’t work because it would be unworkable at or beyond Fiske. There were unrelated airplanes three abreast, racing to the next waypoint. There was poor speed control, altitdue control, and track control. I was up on tehj high road becasue the ROcket at 90 has the nose so high in the air I’d run over anyone ahead of me if they weren’t goign 90, and it was sort of terrifying to look at the carnage below.

Worst of all were the guys using the Approach frequency like a CTAF, blockign the controller’s rapid-fire talk to the airplane arriving over FISKE.

Read the Notice, follow the Notice, GIVE WAY to RECEIVE WAY……

And one nice thing about smoke are beautiful sunrises….

IMG_9552.jpegIMG_9552.jpeg
 
We got in yesterday afternoon around 13:45 CDT IFR. A couple of hours out the field went VFR but we stayed IFR. I hate the VFR arrival with a passion for all of the issues mentioned above and as a result we’ve flown in IFR the past 8 years as it’s simpler and safer. This was our 12th year flying in altogether and it maybe our last as the allure of flying in has lost a lot of its luster.

Anyway, the west wind has really done a good job blowing the smoke out. On the ground it’s not noticeable at all, except for maybe a slight haze.
 
Christ, we already have a contender for the dumbest pilot award. Yesterday Luscombe N1373B landed 09 without talking to anyone against traffic landing 27. How does this happen? I thought Cessna N4301R from last year was bad, but I think somehow this worst. The incident was captured on LiveATC on the 9/27 tower feed starting at about the 1919:30Z mark.
 
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KMMUflyer said:
Miles in trail on the 1800' 90 knot FISK has to take into account the actual arrival rate of the other flows:
2300' 135 knot FISK
IFR arrivals
Warbird arrivals
Go arounds
Departures
Runway crossings
Click to expand...

Keep in mind the generalized estimate of average arrival at 2.5 minutes between aircraft, was made without even considering the additional Rwy 36R. Using the 3rd runway would have resulted in even greater time spacing between aircraft. In other words, 2.5 minutes between aircraft is a conservative estimate.

How much for the other flows?
2300' -- not sure on this - don't have an estimate of the number
IFR -- listening to 9/27 tower yesterday - not many
Warbird -- While sitting on 18/36 most of the day, not many, and those that did arrive were directed to 36R, leaving 36L available.
Go arounds -- Saw about 3 go arounds.
Departures -- Saw one Breezy depart and make a few laps on 36L - that as a fun one.
Runway crossings -- Held to absolute minimum for safety, with only 2 aircraft turning west off of 36R at mid-point, crossing 36L in order to get to show center.

Sure don't want to get into the weeds on this, especially since it's AirVenture time -- a time to enjoy the aviation aura. But these back of the envelope estimates tend to convey a planning for 2.5 minutes between aircraft. And simply lead to the question, is this the right amount of time?

Keep in mind if the landing pace is too slow, this will result in an even larger conga line, problems at Endeavor, and increased potential for mayhem. However, efficient landing and movement of aircraft helps to minimize the congestion and problems during approach to KOSH. From my perspective, 2.5 minutes between landing aircraft seems like eternity, but if through reasoned and calculated thought, along with considered risk assessment, that's the safest pace, considering all factors, including the mayhem of Endeavor, Ripon, Fisk, as well as visibility then OK. But has a strong considered risk assessment be conducted, or was 2 miles pulled from the hat?
 
wsquare said:
Keep in mind the generalized estimate of average arrival at 2.5 minutes between aircraft, was made without even considering the additional Rwy 36R. Using the 3rd runway would have resulted in even greater time spacing between aircraft. In other words, 2.5 minutes between aircraft is a conservative estimate.

How much for the other flows?
2300' -- not sure on this - don't have an estimate of the number
IFR -- listening to 9/27 tower yesterday - not many
Warbird -- While sitting on 18/36 most of the day, not many, and those that did arrive were directed to 36R, leaving 36L available.
Go arounds -- Saw about 3 go arounds.
Departures -- Saw one Breezy depart and make a few laps on 36L - that as a fun one.
Runway crossings -- Held to absolute minimum for safety, with only 2 aircraft turning west off of 36R at mid-point, crossing 36L in order to get to show center.

Sure don't want to get into the weeds on this, especially since it's AirVenture time -- a time to enjoy the aviation aura. But these back of the envelope estimates tend to convey a planning for 2.5 minutes between aircraft. And simply lead to the question, is this the right amount of time?

Keep in mind if the landing pace is too slow, this will result in an even larger conga line, problems at Endeavor, and increased potential for mayhem. However, efficient landing and movement of aircraft helps to minimize the congestion and problems during approach to KOSH. From my perspective, 2.5 minutes between landing aircraft seems like eternity, but if through reasoned and calculated thought, along with considered risk assessment, that's the safest pace, considering all factors, including the mayhem of Endeavor, Ripon, Fisk, as well as visibility then OK. But has a strong considered risk assessment be conducted, or was 2 miles pulled from the hat?
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I usually come on Sunday and seem to get 27 most. Have landed a few times on a dot directly behind a guy in front of me landing on the further dot and watching yet a third guy in the middle of the runway still completing his turn off, as I am touching down.. That is 2 landing at the same time with the third so close he is still on the runway; nowhere in the ball park of 2.5 min spacing. This, of course, is when they are not turning away all sorts of folks looking for 2 mi in trail.
 
Ironflight said:
I was up on tehj high road becasue the ROcket at 90 has the nose so high in the air I’d run over anyone ahead of me if they weren’t goign 90, and it was sort of terrifying to look at the carnage below.
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Paul or anyone.... I'm unfortunately not coming to OSH this year (plane is still in the paint shop). But am definitely planning to fly in next year. I assume a normal RV like an RV-8 can still choose to do the HIGH Fisk 135 kt arrival, right? I fly up initial at 135 everyday back home. I'd rather stay out of the carnage at 90.....
 
Notso said:
Paul or anyone.... I'm unfortunately not coming to OSH this year (plane is still in the paint shop). But am definitely planning to fly in next year. I assume a normal RV like an RV-8 can still choose to do the HIGH Fisk 135 kt arrival, right? I fly up initial at 135 everyday back home. I'd rather stay out of the carnage at 90.....
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This is a topic that has been hotly debated for years but the intent of the NOTAM is aircraft that can safely fly the approach at 90kts use the low route. Any of our RVs can meet this requirement.
 
A couple of observations. A lot of pilots cannot maintain 90 knots and 1800’. The higher speeds lead to planes bunching up and people getting sent back to start the procedure again. You should practice your speed and altitude control before getting to Oshkosh. Also there is too much chatter on the approach frequency. I heard one pilot call Fiske approach today to let them know he had entered the conga line several miles from Fiske. I always thought you supposed to listen and only talk when necessary.
 
moosepileit said:
Well Said.

avbrief.com

Our Own Worst Enemy - AvBrief.com

The Fisk arrival into AirVenture can become a dangerous free-for-all when pilots ignore procedures. Paul shares a wild Friday arrival story.
avbrief.com avbrief.com
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Excellent article @Ironflight!

[Rant=ON]
Unfortunately, I don't see it getting any better in general. While I agree that pilots "Should" be a cut above the rest and different.... the reality is we're not. We still pretty much mirror a rough cross section of society. And that society is getting more and more narcissistic, self-centered, self-absorbed, and all about "me". And I don't think its deliberate malice towards others.... I think that they are so deep in their own self-absorbed bubble that considering how their actions impact others never even occurs to them. I see it everywhere, everyday. On the road, in restaurants, in stores, in businesses, etc. I wonder how many of them who were off-speed, off altitude, off course, etc were on their phones flying and texting or taking selfies so they can post to their instagram feeds about how cool it is to fly into OSH?
[Rant=OFF]

Sorry, don't want to hijack the thread.....
 
Notso said:
Paul or anyone.... I'm unfortunately not coming to OSH this year (plane is still in the paint shop). But am definitely planning to fly in next year. I assume a normal RV like an RV-8 can still choose to do the HIGH Fisk 135 kt arrival, right? I fly up initial at 135 everyday back home. I'd rather stay out of the carnage at 90.....
Click to expand...

I was in that carnage yesterday, and the RVs who tried the high arrival were turned away at FISK and told to do the approach at 1800' and 90 knots.

In 30 years of flying I've never seen anything like what I was in the middle of yesterday. Even by OSH standards it was completely out of control. There were times when I was a half mile behind someone and wanted to turn out and go back to Endeavor and couldn't because there were people on both sides of me and above me. And being 1000' AGL meant I certainly wasn't going down. Not with the towers and obstacles that are around here.

One of the returns to Endeavor required me to go more than five miles west of the bridge in order to even get back in line. By the time I reached Endeavor again I had already been cut off 3 or 4 times and my two mile spacing was back down to 1/2 or less.

What I should have done was throw in the towel and just land somewhere else -- that was my main takeaway in debriefing after landing. it was a bad call on my part to even stay in that melee.

I was unprepared for the chaos because the ATIS did not report the transition in use. I listened to it multiple times and there was no mention of it whatsoever.

--Ron
 
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