[Kevin Horton]

The RV seems to stall at the same stick position no matter what speed. Stall the airplane in level flight at the slowest speed possible and make note of the stick position. Now speed up 15 MPH, put it in a turn and stall it. The stick will be in the same aft position. You could almost put a micro switch on the stick as a stall warning system.

The stick position required to stall will also be affected by CG location, flap angle and probably by engine power. Try it sometime.

 

[Sid Lambert]

The stick position required to stall will also be affected by CG location, flap angle and probably by engine power. Try it sometime.

I agree and have, although having some power didn't make much difference. I've never had the nerve to go full power in a turn and then yank on the stick. Even doing that with 1/4 power is an interesting ride.

 

[David-aviator]

...as long as you know how to use it...

But let’s keep the discussion in proper context, because it’s not about the merits of AoA as a useful tool in the cockpit.

The OP had a stall buffet in the pattern, and it was a noteworthy enough event in his life to merit a post on the forum. Several others apparently felt this buffet was a “problem” and offered the AoA as a “solution”. Fair enough. Now, since I encounter a slight stall buffet in the pattern quite often, I don’t consider this a “problem” at all… It’s an easily managed, normal fact of life when flying at CLmax, and generations of military pilots know this. Therefore, I have deduced (right or wrong) that the OP and other members are not comfortable flying at CLmax because (again, right or wrong) they lack a basic understanding of what is happening. With that premise, the question of the day becomes: What represents better value – installing an AoA instrument, or learning more about flying at CLmax? Some have opined that the instrument will save the day; I offer that learning the airplane is better.

Best of all: learn the airplane AND install AoA (then learn how to use it to full advantage)!

Michael,

When you use the term CLmax, is that the same as L/Dmax? If the maneuver is at L/Dmax and results in stall buffet, it probably isn't L/Dmax but something less.

I am just trying to understand what you are talking about. I know about the coffin corner at altitude but I don't know anything about flying at or just above stall buffet in the traffic pattern.

My basic reference is 120% of stall for initial climb and 130% of stall on final, both these speeds are considerably above stall buffet. I suppose if one were shooting a very shot field approach or a carrier landing, the reference speed could safely be less but would require power to sustain flight. In any event, is there really a need to be at that speed and induce a stall buffet (and be behind the power curve) when maneuvering somewhere other than on final for landing?

My experience with the RV is there is little stall warning - a slight buffet and bang you are stalled - there is no mushing. This is not good at traffic pattern altitude whether the machine drops off into a spin or just drops, the flight is in serious trouble.

 

[Toobuilder]

Michael,

When you use the term CLmax, is that the same as L/Dmax?..

L/Dmax is to stretch glide or extend range... It's the most efficient flight condition. CLmax is the maximum coefficient of lift... The wing is giving its all- High drag, high lift. You need to be in this area of the envelope to get into (or out of) a very short strip, you need to maneuver to avoid hitting another airplane in the pattern, or, like I do, simply fly a very close in approach to your home airport. All of us were taught this area of the envelope in flight training - remember doing 360 degree turns left and right with the stall warning horn blaring away? Also, military guys were taught to fly their T-38's and T-37's with a slight tickle on the stick on the base to final turn (at least all the military instructors I know, which is a bunch).

I'm not advocating that this is a normal technique, because let's face it, today's "normal" FAA approved pattern could serve a Learjet. But if you need to get the most out of your airplane for some reason (bird, traffic, wind gust, tower request, etc), then you should be able to recognize the very edge of the envelope. After all, if you don't know where the edge is, then how do you keep from stepping over it?

 

[Bill Wightman]

CAT-III based on AOA??

Now you're talking like an airline pilot, Jordan.

The lowest minimum approach we made (10 years ago) was a CAT3 with auto land. It was predicated on AOA, not IAS..

Really??? What were you flying? All the approaches I've seen, no matter the category, were flown based on IAS. It isn't even possible to directly display AOA in any of the big jets I've flown. The fighters, the T-38 and other very low aspect ratio wing'ed jets commonly use AOA. GA airplanes - not so much.

However, I do think AOA would be an asset to the RV pilot, due to the very small pre-stall buffet window - just as you pointed out in the post above.

 

[bryan12]

best hour of flight

I recently took about an hour and a half flight with eusebio valdez at miami- Kendall airport. We spend the whole time in his acrobatic trainer doing spin recovery. Without a doubt the most beneficial hour I have ever spent in a plane. he stripped the stall horn out and other unnecessary instruments so you are forced to get the feel. It went a long way i think in improving my automatic skills of reacting properly to stalls and took a lot of the intimidation away from recovering from a spin.

That said, I encourage every pilot to go through the experience.

 

[Chunky]

My experience with the RV is there is little stall warning - a slight buffet and bang you are stalled - there is no mushing. This is not good at traffic pattern altitude whether the machine drops off into a spin or just drops, the flight is in serious trouble.

Hi David

I have only had my 6A since November last year but I have done a reasonable amount of hours since then, just over 200.

My experience is different. Since I have been flying the RV I have come to appreciate the warning the aircraft gives you before anything out of the ordinary happens.

I have always felt the the RV is one of the best aircraft in the sense that you can just feel when something is wrong. If I approach slower than usual, its easy to feel the sink that overcomes the stick position. Not sure if its just me putting to much faith in the aircraft but I feel there is ample warning. When flying in a friends 7 its even more pronounced.

My Instructor spent many hours with his students making them feel what the aircraft does when the numbers are wrong rather than just watching the panel.

Shawn

 

[Brantel]

My 7 bumps twice and it is done..yeh there is a buffet...it occurs about .125 seconds before it falls. Power on or accelerated stalls happen faster and much more violently....

There is plenty of cues that you are about to stall though. The airplane does get funny fealing on the stick and kind of starts to wallow a little.

Hi David

I have only had my 6A since November last year but I have done a reasonable amount of hours since then, just over 200.

My experience is different. Since I have been flying the RV I have come to appreciate the warning the aircraft gives you before anything out of the ordinary happens.

I have always felt the the RV is one of the best aircraft in the sense that you can just feel when something is wrong. If I approach slower than usual, its easy to feel the sink that overcomes the stick position. Not sure if its just me putting to much faith in the aircraft but I feel there is ample warning. When flying in a friends 7 its even more pronounced.

My Instructor spent many hours with his students making them feel what the aircraft does when the numbers are wrong rather than just watching the panel.

Shawn

 

[L.Adamson]

My Instructor spent many hours with his students making them feel what the aircraft does when the numbers are wrong rather than just watching the panel.

In my opinion, if I'm getting quick, but continuous glances of the IAS as I come downhill on final approach, then I'm at least in tune with what's going on. That way, I most likely won't get bit at the last second. If I elect to do a power off landing, the approach can be quite steep, with the Hartzell acting as an airbrake. And sometimes it's steeper than you'd think, to prevent the airspeed from decaying too quickly. Therefor, I am going to keep track of the IAS no matter what. But I can play it safe, and just make shallower approaches with no IAS.............if that's what I really wanted to do.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[SteinAir]

So I have a question....does nobody ever practice flying these things with no ASI or am I the only idiot that's managed to fly my rv with the pitot blocked? Let's say that hypothetically a pitot tube cover is left on the plane....would you run for a 10k' runway or be able to turn around and land on the grass strip you just took off of? Kind of like hypothetically sticking your hand into a running propeller-not something that will normally happen, but it could, right?!?!

Cheers,
Stein

 

[Ron Lee]

Last year on approach to an airport back east I noticed that the airspeed read zero. Knowing the ground winds and GPS ground speed plus inherent superior piloting skills, I landed a bit fast with no problems.

The pitot tube had failed (fatigued) and was bent back almost 90 degrees. Field repaired with appropriate certified materials which allowed me to get home and make a final repair.

 

[sjjonesnz]

So I have a question....does nobody ever practice flying these things with no ASI or am I the only idiot that's managed to fly my rv with the pitot blocked? Let's say that hypothetically a pitot tube cover is left on the plane....would you run for a 10k' runway or be able to turn around and land on the grass strip you just took off of? Kind of like hypothetically sticking your hand into a running propeller-not something that will normally happen, but it could, right?!?!

Come on Stein, I can understand someone rushing preflight and being silly enough to leave a pitot cover on, but surely noone's stupid enough to stick their hand in a running prop?!....what were you thinking, sorry I should say what would one be thinking...."Oooh, I wonder if I can stop it with my bare hand like the little fan at home"

Seriously tho', we have a semi-social competition (there's no such thing as a truly social competition for us A-type red-blooded pilots, right ) at our aero club where we do two circuits and only the instructor/safety pilot can see the instruments - it really gets the heart pumping and is nearly as much fun as the fastest circuit and carrier landing comps! Great practice for when one is stupid enough to rush the preflight or we're really not having a good day...

 

[Bill Wightman]

If IAS becomes unreliable or inoperative, airspeed can still be controlled using known pitch and power settings.

Its easy to get a database going: Fly a few points of interest such as * your typical climb speed; * a comfortable level flight traffic pattern speed; * final approach speeds with flaps and without. Make a note of these pitch/power correlations in your on-board plastic brain and you've got it whipped.

 

[John Clark]

Practice!

I was talking with the wife on this very problem, stall on final that is. I just read about an RV8 that crashed on short final and I told the wife that in an RV the long finals are the culprit. You see when I fly a long final in I always end up with a high nose and scarbling at the last little bit in with airspeed and too much angle of attack. Now remember from training, you can stall at any speed. Why is that, because it's the angle of attack that will bite you. I know right when it happens because I fly seat of the pants. If I didn't have an ASI than I would know when things are going wrong by the angle looking out front. Usually the runway is covered with nose. Also you drop like a rock if you want to call it that. I just hate a long final in to land. Things happen and you don't know it. Why, you get complacit. Before you know it your dropping and the nose is high, OH ya the speed if watching the asi is not to bad, but things are setting up for a fall. I love short approaches because this does not happen, things are quick and I'm right on things. That long drawn out final, forget it. I always end up powering up and than I have to fix the overspeed(asi) and too high, slip time, or shallow s turns. Nope hate those long finals straight ins.

With all due respect, you need to at least do some practice, or better yet, get some instruction. There is no reason that a "long straight in" cannot be done easily. It is all about energy management. Those of us that fly IFR are always flying "long straight in approaches" without any problem. You just need to know the numbers required, power descent rate and airspeed.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Brantel]

vasi lights

What are those????

 

[luddite42]

with due respect, I never said "I" had a problem...

Always the other guy... I think you did, though:

You see when I fly a long final in I always end up with a high nose and scarbling at the last little bit in with airspeed and too much angle of attack.

I don't understand why you feel the longer the final, the more likely you'll have airspeed control issues. I'm against long finals for other reasons, but I'm a little baffled by this one.

 

[Ron Lee]

slyfox, I do not understand your concern with long finals. First..please define the distance at which a final becomes long because I probably have done long finals and had ZERO problem.

No complacency. No nose high, low airspeed condition. No stalls. No incipient stalls.

 

[szicree]

...one of these times you come in for a landing and your raping with a passenger...

Never a good idea.

 

[N8RV]

With less than 100 hours on Smokey, I'm still getting used to flying an RV. I will opine that flying a Grumman Yankee for a few hundred hours was good training on what to expect in an RV. One learns to recognize a high sink rate before it becomes a problem.

During Phase I, I set up the Dynon AOA through the setup sequence -- and never looked at it again.

Two nights ago, I actually looked down at it for the first time as I turned base. I decided to try to fly the approach with the AOA rather than depending solely on the numbers to which I had grown accustomed.

I've been flying base at 70kts, slowing to about 65kts over the fence. Looking at the AOA, I had to pull up and maintain about 62kts to keep the AOA happy. Sure felt slow to me.

What surprised me most was how little change I needed to make to see a BIG difference in the AOA indication. Touchy little bugger. I think it will take much more attention to detail to keep the indication solid.

I'll need to experiment with it some more, but at least now I know that it's there. Paid for it ... might as well use it.

 

[luddite42]

Don't be bagering me on the quarks of an RV.

Ah, the Quark...so it involves atomic particle physics? Apparently Quarks are the only elementary particles in the Standard Model of particle physics to experience all four fundamental forces...including electromagnetism and gravitation. Maybe the quarks of an RV get excited during long final approaches and thus increase the airplane's gravitational mass. Stands to reason this may cause the mysterious stall phenomenon on long finals.

 

[Danny7]

good reminder to watch my spelling, this thread is.

 

[Walt]

Rough Crowd here today...

Ah, the Quark...so it involves atomic particle physics? Apparently Quarks are the only elementary particles in the Standard Model of particle physics to experience all four fundamental forces...including electromagnetism and gravitation. Maybe the quarks of an RV get excited during long final approaches and thus increase the airplane's gravitational mass. Stands to reason this may cause the mysterious stall phenomenon on long finals.

I understand what slyfox was saying, if you're used to a tight close in pattern flaps out/power-off and then end up dragging it wayyyyy out for whatever reason, with the flaps hanging out it takes a pretty good dose of power to keep the speed up. If you're not used to this it's easy let it get slow and behind the power curve.... nothing a small dose of throttle won't quickly remedy.

Sounds like a good practice manuever for OshKosh

 

[Toobuilder]

Interesting flight today...

I have a young friend (who happens to be an active CFI and a former airline pilot) fly with me today. The purpose of the flight was to try get him up to speed in my Hiperbipe. We did some stall awareness (the buffet), stalls and spins, and ultimately pattern work. As a student, this "kid" (he's only 24) was doing pretty well getting it around the pattern and on the ground. On his last approach however, he was way behind the airplane and despite being on speed, pulled right through the critical AoA on the base to final turn. I saw this coming a mile away and even though I pointed out the obvious shudder as it was happening, I still had to take the action to push the stick to break the stall. Had I not been there, it is likely that he would have killed himself. Later, on the ground, he told me he never even felt the shudder. This was a real eye opener for me because in my mind, I saw the problem unfolding long before the first tickle on the stick, and the event itself (the buffet) was absolutely obvious, and the correction (relax back pressure) completely intuitive.

So here is a guy used to flying turbine aircraft with flight directors, AoA, autothrottles, and all the other magic available today; and left on his own, would have killed himself in my simple little bugsmasher. The experience has only reinforced my conviction that technology is good, but intimate knowledge with your aircraft is absolutely priceless.

 

[hevansrv7a]

Same facts, different read

Emphasis added:

Interesting flight today...

I have a young friend (who happens to be an active CFI and a former airline pilot) fly with me today... his last approach however, he was way behind the airplane and despite being on speed, pulled right through the critical AoA on the base to final turn....

Please be assured this is not a flame, but a serious, respectful discussion of a very important aspect of flight.

Earlier, you said: "... I don't consider a stall buffet in the pattern a big event..." and I suggested that was not a safe way to fly and not how we were taught.

I'm not a CFI nor do I lay claim to having flown special stuff nor am I an exceptional pilot. That said, If I'm flying the pattern in a GA aircraft at 1.3x stall there is NO WAY I will pull through the critical AOA. Therefore I suggest with all respect to your piloting skills that your numbers are too low for safety. Either your friend is not a good pilot (CFI notwithstanding) or you had him using dangerous numbers. You say he was "on speed". Does a good pilot yank on the aircraft while turning base to final? Not likely. If he did not yank it then why did it stall? Of course, I don't know the HB at all and I don't know what numbers you used.

I also respectfully disagree about the AOA meter or device. If your friend had been looking at it during that approach I suspect he would not have come close to a stall.

Of course, all of this assumes he did not pull up to compensate for being too low when the right move would be to add power. No CFI would do that, right?

 

[Toobuilder]

Emphasis added:


...Please be assured this is not a flame, but a serious, respectful discussion of a very important aspect of flight...


[/FONT] [/FONT]

No fire suit needed here

I will tell you that an aircraft can be stalled at any speed or attitude - you are not immune at 1.3 or even 2.0Vso if you pull hard enough.
A snap roll is a stall/spin often done much closer to cruise speed than pattern speed. That said, he pulled too hard for conditions "despite" being above 1.3Vso.
The point being made here is that I knew it was coming without the use of airspeed or AoA indicators - he did not recognize it even "in the moment"... It's a commentary on aircraft familiarity and the SA that it breeds, not the merits of more or less hardware on the panel. So, while the AoA (and airspeed) is a proven, useful device, it's a poor "replacement" for knowing your aircraft. Such devices should IMPROVE your SA; not be used as a crutch.

 

[pierre smith]

Becoming a good "stick"...

...should start from lesson 1. I've been flying with a friend of mine who bought a Cirrus 20 and recently soloed it. I'm his second instructor and I was surprised that after takeoff, he slid his feet back, flat on the floor, with the ball fully out of the box and climbing with a low right wing!!

I just couldn't let this slide and told him so. Here he is with 25 hours and his instructor hasn't had him break this dangerous habit. He was surprised when I told him that he has to hold enough right rudder until he reaches cruise altitude...and "Yes, your leg will get tired."

When we got back on the ground, we had a little P-factor discussion, using my balsa model airplane as a visual.

Best,

 

[apkp777]

Been watching this post. Here's my take on this. First, I am thankful there are folks that are willing to share their bad experiences so that others can get the benefit. I am sure the fellow knows how to fly and has had great instructors. His lesson is one we can ALL relate to.

There are instructors who tend to focus on certain "numbers" in the pattern. (2000 RPM downwind, 90kts, 1500 a-beam, 80 kts, 70kts base, 65kts final, etc, etc). Personally I think that's not a good idea.

Here's how I teach my students. First I take them out and demonstrate basic attitude flying. I will put us into a climb with a low power setting. The I ask them "how do you feel"? The response should be "uncomfortable". Then I add full power, same pitch attitude. How do you feel? "better". Then I pitch down, same power (full), How do you feel? "uh, not good", then power down, How do you feel? "better". Now they have an understanding of the Pitch/Power relationship.

When it comes to Power settings I never focus on a specific number.
Here are the power settings I use:
Climb power - Full Throttle
Cruise Power - Low speed 2000-2200, Med speed 2200-2400, High Speed 2400 - Full
Descent power (for landing) <2000
Glide Power - Idle

Each of the power settings have an appropriate pitch attitude. If we are in "climb power" we have a nose high attitude, descent, we have a nose low, cruise, level. Period. Never do I allow a nose high attitude with a Descent power setting.

IMO stall/spin accidents are the result of an improper pitch attitude and not airspeed as most of them are accelerated stalls not the worthless kind that we do out at 3000 ft in a wing level attitude.

I really don't want my students looking at ANY instruments while landing. If you maintain the proper descent profile for a given power setting, you will not stall (unless accelerated).

Accelerated stalls in the pattern usually occur on an overshoot of the final approach path. In an attempt not overshoot, there is an over bank and resulting increase of load factor and stall. This is why I teach "over-shoot, don't over-bank". There is NOTHING wrong with overshooting final. If a correction can be made then continue the approach, if not, go-around. There is something deadly wrong with over-banking.

On my first flight in my RV two weeks ago, I had a failure of my airspeed indicator. It was indicating ZERO. However, it really didn't matter to me as that's not how I fly anyway. As long as I can see out the window and hear the sound of my engine what else is necessary?

As far as AOA. I have it, I calibrated it, I haven't used it. It looks pretty, I am sure I will use it at some point. But I am not going to be staring at it.

I do like the 1.3 vso number. As it works for transitioning from airplane to airplane. As a CFI I may be in several types of planes all in the same day. I can not remember approach speeds in all of them. 1.3 vso (or for us math deficient ones 1/3 the stall speed added to the the stall speed) is the only number I don't go below in the pattern (okay, I guess field elevation I don't go under either)

I am a really big advocate of the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. I think it is, by far, the best text on flying available. If you haven't read it for a while, do so.

 

[L.Adamson]

snipped

I really don't want my students looking at ANY instruments while landing. If you maintain the proper descent profile for a given power setting, you will not stall (unless accelerated).

snipped

On my first flight in my RV two weeks ago, I had a failure of my airspeed indicator. It was indicating ZERO. However, it really didn't matter to me as that's not how I fly anyway. As long as I can see out the window and hear the sound of my engine what else is necessary?

As far as AOA. I have it, I calibrated it, I haven't used it. It looks pretty, I am sure I will use it at some point. But I am not going to be staring at it.

snipped

Just put me down as not agreeing. I see that you have a Catto fixed pitch prop. There is a big difference between that prop, & my Hartzell C/S during the last few seconds of the landing phase. You'll float, and I'll fall through the flare to the asphalt if we maintain the same speeds.

And since my C/S equipped RV is essentially equipped with a "speed brake", I have a tendency not to fly Cessna pattern speeds unless I have too. Therefor I do like the airspeed indicator to check flap speeds.

On the otherhand, there are instuctors who tend to cover up GPS's too. I don't agree with them either. First one that ever does that to me, get's thrown out the door!

In the meantime, I'll continue to think highly of pretty AOAs, GPS's, and even my indicated airspeed gauge. I know you didn't call the GPS pretty or a toy, but some have. I have extensive accident databases, which easily prove that some of these new fangled instruments could have been of use.

Just don't cover up my "airspeed indicator"......
I can't imagine a commercial jet pilot landing with out airspeed.......either.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

 

[Toobuilder]

... I was surprised that after takeoff, he slid his feet back, flat on the floor, with the ball fully out of the box and climbing with a low right wing..

I have a friend who also lives on my airpark - he's lived here most of his life and learned how to fly from this challenging airport. Until recently, he'd never flown a nosewheel airplane. He is one of the best "natural" pilots I have ever met and as a result of flying from a short, narrow, and always windy airport has an extensive "tool kit" of skills. He started dating a woman who was at the time a student pilot in her newly aquired straight tail Cessna 172. We were all shocked and amazed that her instructor told her that the rudder pedals were NOT to be used in flight - they were for ground use only! Can you imagine how her world of flying opened up as my friend showed her the forward slip? Would you also believe that her instructor almost jumped out of the airplane on her next lesson when she used that newly aquired "tool" (the slip) to correct a high approach? After that he was no longer her instructor.

A forward slip is a tool that is not often needed, but very nice to know. It's largely done by feel, eyes outside, and requires practice and familiarity with the airplane. Recognizing and correcting an incipient stall in the pattern (or anywhere else) by feel alone is also a nice thing to know.

I think newer pilots are trained to be managers of the flight - that is, to monitor performance and make corrections based upon variation to the "book" values. I wonder if we are losing the ability to fly an airplane by doing this?

 

[RV8R999]

Terri - I get what you are saying but as I've posted previously it is not the "overbank" which causes the problem it is the g-load. Angle of Bank has nothing to do at all with a stall unless the pilot is pulling through the turn.

When I teach students in the pattern I emphasize one of the best stall avoidance instruments we have which is the inherent positive maneuver stability or stick force per 'g' of the plane. If we teach our students to trim the plane for the correct approach speed (or AOA) and to allow the stick to seek its trim position throughout the approach turn (base to final) then no matter what AOB used the airplane will not stall. High AOB will most certainly generate a high ROD requiring prompt power application but as long as the pilot allows the stick to maintain its trim position the plane will maintain a healthy margin to the stall - with trim corrections as needed to maintain A/S of course. The beauty of this is what you alluded to as well and that is not focusing on specific power settings. I use the Power, Attitude, Trim method in which I have the student set power for an appropriate ROD to maintain a safe descent profile (which is dependent upon distance, altitude, wind, GW, blah, blah, blah), set an attitude correlating to the desired A/S and AOB and trim out the control forces. If the student overshoots final - add power, increase AOB attitude, maintain neutral trim forces (power, attitude, trim) and keep the ball centered always (ok except on final in a x-wind). If the overshoot is so great the AOB needed to correct is too much (for me this is somewhere below the 30 deg range) then it is time to wave-off and try again.

Starting from the very first flight I teach my students how to recognize an out of trim condition and to teach themselves to feel the force gradient and to correct for it. Throughout every flight (mostly in the first 10 hours or so) I'll make the student let go of the stick. If the plane changes pitch attitude then we both know they are not trimming correctly. I usually make them buy me 1 beer (or soda) for every out-of-trim condition I catch and I buy them 1 for every time they are on target. I'll also introduce an out-of-trim condition when they are not looking to teach them to feel the control forces and zero them out. The best part is my bar tab is really low for awhile


I have lots of bells and whistles in my airplane too including AOA and I'll use it as cross reference to the above technique in that I'll trim to my best approach AOA and all corrections will be about this trim point. Once this is done the job is to use power and AOB to maintain profile and correct track over the ground. AOA is also great for Vy, Vx and best glide not just stall.

For the life of me I cannot ever see the need for anyone to "pull through" the approach turn to final.

And as a helicopter pilot as well..the thought of leaving my feet on the floor makes me cringe! YIKES!!!!!

 

[Toobuilder]

...Accelerated stalls in the pattern usually occur on an overshoot of the final approach path. In an attempt not overshoot, there is an over bank and resulting increase of load factor and stall. This is why I teach "over-shoot, don't over-bank". There is NOTHING wrong with overshooting final. If a correction can be made then continue the approach, if not, go-around. There is something deadly wrong with over-banking...

"Edit" - I wrote this and posted without knowing Ken beat me to it...

Anyway -

Agree with your post except with this part, which I think needs clarification.

Good advice to not salvage an overshoot at all costs - I agree 100%. But, the angle of bank is not THE culprit in accelerated stalls - the critical AoA is. You can be at 90 degrees of bank and a zero AoA, and vice versa. I can understand that teaching a primary student about sight picture and angle of bank will give them most of the tools they need to fly safely, but recognizing the critical AoA is done by feel and an infinitely variable sight picture which requires practice and a more comprehensive understanding of the forces of flight. I can imagine that some students will never seek this level of understanding.

I'm not an instructor, but I would think that drilling "bank angle" into the student's head reinforces but one "out" (reduce bank angle) if things go bad. There is another, and far quicker "out" - slightly unload the elevator. Obviously, the closer to the ground you are, the smaller this "out" becomes, but the turn rate is a function of lift, not bank angle.

 

[Toobuilder]

...For the life of me I cannot ever see the need for anyone to "pull through" the approach turn to final...

If this is in reference to my post; my airplane is very light in pitch (much more so than the RV-8) AND, my "student" was task saturated. So yes, no "need" to pull that hard, just too aggressive on a tight, close approach with a crosswind blowing him to an overshoot.

The balance of your post was spot on, btw! Much more effective than my inane ramblings.

 

[jjconstant]

aircraft familiarization

Picking up on the discussion regarding the HyperBipe familiarization gone awry:

I'm a very low-time pilot with prior experience only in the Cessna fleet up through the 182, the Cherokee/Warrior and my trusty old Aircoupe. I'm sure that those who've flown more types would probably transition quicker, but when I was first getting rides in RV's and friends would graciously allow me to fly, it was frustrating and embarrassing whenever I would do turns just looking out the window, that they would say "you're sinking" or "you're climbing" without me being able to perceive it. The sight picture from an RV always looking like I was diving. Add flaps and I couldn't believe that I wasn't accelerating like a lawn dart.

It took a LONG time for me to get the old sight picture out of my head and to stop automatically pulling in a turn to maintain altitude. I hadn't realized how hard-wired the pull-while-banked to maintain altitude was in my muscle-memory. I had to RELY ON THE INSTRUMENTS to retrain my eyes and my muscle memory. Once retrained, it's much easier but it took a while and I REALY NEEDED THE INSTRUMENTS to recalibrate my perceptions. Now, when I give rides, I'm relieved that when someone is climbing or descending I can easily see it out the window.

I'm sure when I go to high Density Altitude situation airports I will be all over the instruments again...

So just saying that "pulling through the critical AOA" at the end of a familiarization flight when fatigue would definitely be a factor is only shocking because to me it suggests that he was trying to rely on seat-of-the -pants WAY TOO SOON at a very critical phase of flight.

Jeremy Constant
RV7A flying!

 

[Toobuilder]

Jeremy, I can't disagree with a thing you wrote. My "student" and I both recognize that the sight picture, pattern techniques, and general flying characteristics of my airplane are a LONG way removed from the airliners he's used to. It will take a while to adjust to the new situation, but he will get it.

The shocking thing about that last flight was not that he got too aggressive in the first place, but that he failed to recognize the stall as it was happening, and therefore did nothing on his own to correct it. The shudder that this airplane gives off is NOT subtle...

Inexplicably, people continue to kill themselves even in benign aircraft such as 172's and Cherokees due to stall/spin accidents, despite the fact that these airplanes are difficult to stall by accident and almost impossible to spin even if you work at it. I can't help but think more familiarity/understanding of all corners of the envelope rather than rote process would prevent some of these accidents.

 

[apkp777]

"Edit" - I wrote this and posted without knowing Ken beat me to it...

Anyway -

Agree with your post except with this part, which I think needs clarification.

Good advice to not salvage an overshoot at all costs - I agree 100%. But, the angle of bank is not THE culprit in accelerated stalls - the critical AoA is. You can be at 90 degrees of bank and a zero AoA, and vice versa. I can understand that teaching a primary student about sight picture and angle of bank will give them most of the tools they need to fly safely, but recognizing the critical AoA is done by feel and an infinitely variable sight picture which requires practice and a more comprehensive understanding of the forces of flight. I can imagine that some students will never seek this level of understanding.

I'm not an instructor, but I would think that drilling "bank angle" into the student's head reinforces but one "out" (reduce bank angle) if things go bad. There is another, and far quicker "out" - slightly unload the elevator. Obviously, the closer to the ground you are, the smaller this "out" becomes, but the turn rate is a function of lift, not bank angle.

Yes, I can clarify. The base to final stall often results when the pilot overshoots the final approach path, and steepens their bank angle and rate of turn to get back on final, then while rolling out with aileron while still holding the opposite rudder from the turn, they end up cross controlled, while low, slow and in a bank.

I should also clarify that I am not opposed by any means to AOA indicators. I spent the money to get it for my plane. Maybe I just am not totally "in" to it as this the first plane that I have flown that has it. However, I still find it hard to look at it while I am maneuvering for landing. I may change my mind as I get more experience with it.

I will tell you that student pilots have love affairs with certain instruments, the airspeed being the most common. They'll chase that to the point of totally ignoring what's happening out side the plane.

It's clear that the critical AOA is the REASON the wing stalls. But HOW it gets to the critical angle is what I try to prevent.

 

[apkp777]

Just put me down as not agreeing. I see that you have a Catto fixed pitch prop. There is a big difference between that prop, & my Hartzell C/S during the last few seconds of the landing phase. You'll float, and I'll fall through the flare to the asphalt if we maintain the same speeds.

And since my C/S equipped RV is essentially equipped with a "speed brake", I have a tendency not to fly Cessna pattern speeds unless I have too. Therefor I do like the airspeed indicator to check flap speeds.

On the otherhand, there are instuctors who tend to cover up GPS's too. I don't agree with them either. First one that ever does that to me, get's thrown out the door!

In the meantime, I'll continue to think highly of pretty AOAs, GPS's, and even my indicated airspeed gauge. I know you didn't call the GPS pretty or a toy, but some have. I have extensive accident databases, which easily prove that some of these new fangled instruments could have been of use.

Just don't cover up my "airspeed indicator"......
I can't imagine a commercial jet pilot landing with out airspeed.......either.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

I agree that the C/S is awesome for landing an RV. Believe me the difference is VERY significant. I found it much easier to land the RV-7 I did transition training in with it's C/S prop vs my RV-9 with the Catto.

I wouldn't ignore my A/S indicator either nor cover it up, but whether or not you have a C/S prop doesn't change the fact the you can fly the airplane with an intentional pitch attitude that will produce an accurate descent profile without ever looking at it. I happen to love GPS's, Been using one for 12 years. Not sure what that was about.

Not sure what the commercial jet comment meant. They have two pilots, one is calling out air speeds (or the flight computer is) and the other is at the controls. (typically) They also have hydraulic controls without the "feel" of what we are flying. I'd say they're much too different to compare.

 

[Toobuilder]

...I will tell you that student pilots have love affairs with certain instruments, the airspeed being the most common. They'll chase that to the point of totally ignoring what's happening out side the plane...

...And I suspect that I was the same as a student.

Like you, I'm not opposed to the AoA instrument, unless, like your example above, it provides a level of fascination that overshadows learning to fly your airplane.

General question: Of those in this thread that have promoted the AoA the most, do you think following the AoA instrument provides a higher level of safety to the RV community than learning to fly your airplane by "feel"? What I mean is, we know that in instrument conditions, you fly the panel - "feel" will kill you. Do some of you believe that the same is true in visual conditions as well? I think this is the main question for the thread.

 

[apkp777]

In the Airplane Flying Handbook the FAA makes this statement : "The flight instructor should be aware that during traffic pattern operations, any conditions that result in overshooting the turn from base leg to final approach, dramatically increases the possibility of an unintentional accelerated stall while the airplane is in a cross-control condition."

They point out that the Student pilot (or other pilot) attempting to correct an "overshoot" may attempt to increase the rate of turn with the rudder rather than with bank angle. Thus resulting in the Up wing accelerating and "over banking" while cross controlled. I believe while rolling out of this the adverse yaw only exaggerates the condition. I agree that AOA is important, equally is the adverse yaw and cross controls that ofter occurs in uncoordinated flight in the base to final scenario.

Below is the link to the AFH. The section on Attitude Flying is awesome. They say that 90% of the attention should be focused outside with 10% in. I see some student pilots doing just the opposite.


http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-2of7.pdf

 

[apkp777]

Sorry to rapid fire these responses but this scenario represents about 9 or 10% of all the GA fatalities.

AOPA has lots to say about this as well. Below is a the speculation on a Comanche fatality. (http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=4768)

"How did this pilot get himself into this situation? No one knows for sure, but it's a good bet that the sequence of events leading up to the accident went something like this: When the pilot realized he had overshot the runway's extended centerline when turning final, he went into a steep bank to the left and added a lot of left rudder to get the aircraft back to the runway centerline. When he applied excessive left rudder the left wing dropped further, to about a 45-degree angle. At this angle of bank the stall speed increased by at least 10 knots and probably was very near the approach-to-landing speed. He then applied right aileron to arrest the bank, placing the aircraft in an uncoordinated condition. The nose dropped so he pulled back on the yoke to correct the pitch. The airspeed deteriorated further; the airplane stalled and rotated to the left at about 250 feet above the ground. In less than two seconds it was all over and three people were dead."

 

[Toobuilder]

...When the pilot realized he had overshot the runway's extended centerline when turning final, he went into a steep bank to the left and added a lot of left rudder to get the aircraft back to the runway centerline. When he applied excessive left rudder the left wing dropped further, to about a 45-degree angle. At this angle of bank the stall speed increased by at least 10 knots and probably was very near the approach-to-landing speed...

Thanks for the link! I have two observations (from the article):

1. Keep the ball centered. Coordinated flight = no spin... One should be able to do this entirely by feel.

2. It bears repeating: A steeper bank/increased rate of turn does not increase stall speed by itself. An aircraft has a certain amount of lift to hold it up. This is the vertical component of lift. As we all know, a turn "STEALS" a horizontal component of lift from the vertical. Therefore, one "CAN" steepen the bank angle and increase the rate of turn without increasing AoA or stall speed, but this action will have a significant negative effect on the rate of descent. Doesn't make for a pretty approach, but neither does a smoking hole

If one looks at lift as money, there's only so much available in the bank to spend - it can be "all" on rate of turn, or "all" on maintaining altitude or any combination of the two - but you are not going to increase one without taking away from the other. Pilots who try to increase turn rate AND try to maintain altitude are "writing bad checks".

 

[Sam Buchanan]

General question: Of those in this thread that have promoted the AoA the most, do you think following the AoA instrument provides a higher level of safety to the RV community than learning to fly your airplane by "feel"? What I mean is, we know that in instrument conditions, you fly the panel - "feel" will kill you. Do some of you believe that the same is true in visual conditions as well? I think this is the main question for the thread.

The highest level of safety in the RV community will be achieved when all RV pilots display a high degree of airmanship at all times combined with superb judgment and an ample dose of common sense.

But...we will never reach that level of safety...

I haven't promoted the AOA systems in this thread but I have flown with an LRI for many years and the Dynon AOA for the past year. I most definitely believe it is of more value to the "average" RV pilot that whatever is being defined in this thread as "feel". By the time "feel" has been felt by the 50 hr/yr RV pilot who gets behind the lift/drag curve on a hot day on short final with a heavy plane, he may well on his way to becoming a statistic. Flying with AOA is far more consistent and safe than depending on a highly refined "feel" that most likely isn't possessed by most pilots. Using an AOA is not a detraction from the normal traffic or runway scan (in addition to the LRI I have the audio alarm on the Dynon AOA.....that will wake you up!).

AOA isn't needed if an RVer flies short final at 1.5 stall speed and limits all maneuvering to shallow banks in the pattern. But for extracting max landing performance in tight patterns at short fields, I have found it invaluable.

 

[Brantel]

Amen Sam....Well said!!!

I used my AOA beeper from my Dynon today twice!!! Have never looked at the display on base to final and after crossing the fence but the progressive beeper is great!!

It is allowing me to fine tune my landing techniques so I can start going to some shorter grass strips without fear of running off the end.

The highest level of safety in the RV community will be achieved when all RV pilots display a high degree of airmanship at all times combined with superb judgment and an ample dose of common sense.

But...we will never reach that level of safety...

I haven't promoted the AOA systems in this thread but I have flown with an LRI for many years and the Dynon AOA for the past year. I most definitely believe it is of more value to the "average" RV pilot that whatever is being defined in this thread as "feel". By the time "feel" has been felt by the 50 hr/yr RV pilot who gets behind the lift/drag curve on a hot day on short final with a heavy plane, he may well on his way to becoming a statistic. Flying with AOA is far more consistent and safe than depending on a highly refined "feel" that most likely isn't possessed by most pilots. Using an AOA is not a detraction from the normal traffic or runway scan (in addition to the LRI I have the audio alarm on the Dynon AOA.....that will wake you up!).

AOA isn't needed if an RVer flies short final at 1.5 stall speed and limits all maneuvering to shallow banks in the pattern. But for extracting max landing performance in tight patterns at short fields, I have found it invaluable.

 

[apkp777]

I don't have my audio hooked up yet for my SkyView. I can see that that would be really good to have an audible AOA.

 

[Walt]

My name is Walt and I'm an AOA advocate...

I'm an AOA advocate because I believe it can save lives, plain an simple.

I can see the AOA "xmas tree" mounted on my glareshield in my Peripheral vision most of the time without "looking" at it per se.

But the most useful fuction is when my girlfriend (as my wife likes to call her) blares "angle-angle-push-push" in the headset, at that point I know I'm about 5kts above stall.

And like Brantel said it has "allowed" me to slow down on final a bit more than I probably would without it. My ideal landing is when "she" talks to me in the flair as we softly settle on the runway without so much as a Goodyear chirp

 

[DeltaRomeo]

Everything Walt said....me too.

Love my AOA, and am in the process with panel v4.0 of relocating it a little
over to the left (instead of the center of the glareshield) so I can better see
it on that 180° base to final turn.

Like on jets that land on carriers (below) . In the field of view when it counts....

Guess I can't use it in right traffic <g>.

I'm an AOA advocate because I believe it can save lives, plain an simple.

I can see the AOA "xmas tree" mounted on my glareshield in my Peripheral vision most of the time without "looking" at it per se.

But the most useful fuction is when my girlfriend (as my wife likes to call her) blares "angle-angle-push-push" in the headset, at that point I know I'm about 5kts above stall.

And like Brantel said it has "allowed" me to slow down on final a bit more than I probably would without it. My ideal landing is when "she" talks to me in the flair as we softly settle on the runway without so much as a Goodyear chirp

 

[Toobuilder]

...I haven't promoted the AOA systems in this thread but I have flown with an LRI for many years and the Dynon AOA for the past year. I most definitely believe it is of more value to the "average" RV pilot that whatever is being defined in this thread as "feel"...

...So what I hear you saying (and please correct me if I've missed this), is that given two options to improve the stall/spin problem:

1. Go fly with an instructor, practice, or just do whatever it takes to learn your airplane

or

2. Install and follow an AoA instrument:

You are saying the flying community will be better served with the AoA instrument because learning the "feel" of an airplane is unreliable and/or too hard.

If so, this is indeed a sad commentary about our collective skills

 

[L.Adamson]

...So what I hear you saying (and please correct me if I've missed this), is that given two options to improve the stall/spin problem:

1. Go fly with an instructor, practice, or just do whatever it takes to learn your airplane

or

2. Install and follow an AoA instrument:

You are saying the flying community will be better served with the AoA instrument because learning the "feel" of an airplane is unreliable and/or too hard.

If so, this is indeed a sad commentary about our collective skills

No................you're making it an either/or........to make a point

Why not both?

L.Adamson

 

[SMO]

...You are saying the flying community will be better served with the AoA instrument because learning the "feel" of an airplane is unreliable and/or too hard.

Can I butt in here? A more correct statement from my perspective would be:

The flying community will be well served by using an AoA instrument WHILE they learn the "feel" of their particular airplane. If you can correlate "feel" to AoA then after some time the AoA will lose its usefulness.

 

[Toobuilder]

Both is great!

I posed it as an either/or because the "solutions" offered to the OP 10 pages ago was "AoA indicator" ... not "training". That was the start of the either/or

This is a common thread in these kinds of discussions where a "solution" is technology or avoidance... Not basic airmanship.

 

[L.Adamson]

\This is a common thread in these kinds of discussions where a "solution" is technology or avoidance... Not basic airmanship.

Well, there is the flight instructor I've been arguing with for months, who believes that I'm lacking in basic airmanship & flying skills because I refuse to set an OBS before every cross country flight. I say no thanks, and will go with newer GPS technology. I don't even have a NAV eadio.

And he does use the excact terms......."basic airmanship & flying skills"..

IMO, the technology solution of GPS & synthetic vision is a much better route than what we've had with the VOR/radio nav system. I do believe that AOA as well as other systems, can only be beneficial for the future. Afterall, many airman using basic airmanship haven't always done well, when left to their own devices. Accidents happen for many reasons. Warnings can help when attention is diverted for other reasons.

In fact, sadly, I just learned that our local banner towing pilot........didn't make it. His plane crashed about an hour ago. It's just down the road from my house. I live next to the airport.

L.Adamson --- RV6A