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N674P

Well Known Member
This will be my first foray into plane building, even though I said to myself "Someday I"m gonna build a plane" when I first discovered a person could build and fly thier own. That discovery came when the BD-5 first splashed on the scene - what - 30 years ago?!
I told my wife when we first got together, someday I'm gonna build a plane and if you can't stand behind that, we better not even get engaged.
She's behind it enough she bought me a -6 tailkit for my 40th birthday! I found Dans website (y'all know him...) about 7 months into his project, and followed it daily for the next year and a half or so. We bought a house a few years back with a 30x40 hanger and (so far) access to an airstrip. And I have neighbors that 1) has completed and flys an -8A, and 2) is building an -8A. I'm a tool junkie anyhow, and I've accumulated most of the tools I need - certainly enough to get started. And the kits have developed to where consistency and safe, good flying planes can be built by average people. And now I've stumbled across these forums, and have reserved an N number.
So with this steady long time dream, and far fewer obstacles than most builders face (well, outside of a significant shortage of cash), Why have I still not put drill to metal?
Many many moons ago, I took a long hard look at myself. I saw I tended to get sidetracked, or too perfectionist and frustrated, or whatever, and not complete projects. I believed that once I got started I needed to roll right through the years without stoping, or it could be all over. The statistics on starts to completions (especially in those days) was pretty grim, and this was too important to me to start and then abandon it. Over the years as I've been getting ready to get ready, I've come to embrace Done is better than Perfect, and that time takes time. So here it is, 30 years and counting.
Now I'm ready - well, after Thanksgiving...
Oh yeah - the whole point of the post - Is anybody or has anybody been on the fence? How long, and once started, have there been pauses in construction, and how did you get back to building?
Sorry this was so long for a short question - but now you have the background on the really wannabe that's not off the dime yet...
 
well, i had been wanting to build for about three years. i finally bought a -7 tail this summer, and i've got the order form for the wings sitting right next to me, but haven't had a chance yet today to fill it out (guess i could do that, instead of typing this!!). even though i'm still in the beginning stages on the airplane as a whole, i've found it motivational to at least go out to the shop and fiddle with something EVERY DAY that i'm home. if i can't actually work on something due to time, i review what i'm doing next, or organize tools, something...worked so far. haven't had any major pauses, and i think it's because i get out there everyday at least once...

now, get started! :)
 
Screwups are part of the process. Paul Rosales told me "You don't build 1 plane...you build 1 1/2 planes". Don't be afraid to screwup. Most of them can be fixed, and the ones that can't can be replaced with a simple call to Vans (his prices are very reasonable). If you haven't already assembled his practice kit, go ahead and do that. You'll see that there's nothing to it.

Here's what happened to us: We were going nuts trying to find a reasonable plane to purchase. The more we looked, the more depressed we got at how poorly the certified aircraft performed, not to mention how expensive they were to buy and maintain. There was simply nothing out there that we could buy that would do what I wanted it to do.

We made the decision to build a Bearhawk. Neat plane, actually. It took me WEEKS to send a check to Barrows for the plans. I don't know why we hesitated so much, but we did.

Then we decided that what we REALLY wanted was an RV (we liked the speed and the aerobatics). This time around, we ordered the kit and the tools basically the next day. I knew if I didn't do SOMETHING, we'd never do it (strike while the iron's hot).

We had just moved into our house so we weren't ready to start building at all. Then the kit showed up, and we stared at it for a while. We didn't even inventory it for some reason. It was just really really tough to take that first step even though we had boxes full of parts and a garage full of tools and workbenches.

When I finally got my act together and started building, I just blazed right through the vertical and horizontal stabs. Piece of cake. Then I got to the rudder, and things got busy at work, and I procrastinated on cutting out the stiffeners because I thought it was a much bigger deal than it actually turned out being. I made one excuse after another. In the meantime, the wing kit showed up (I haven't even opened the boxes yet, hence no inventory. Hopefully, nothing big is screwed up....my fault if it is and I'll pay for it, I guess).

Now I had a garage full of half assembled empennage parts, an unopened wing kit and what I thought was very little spare time. I made excuse after excuse why today was a bad day to start building again. This went on all summer. I was absolutely destined to be just another builder that never finished.

The love of my life (God bless her soul) finally snapped me out of it and kicked me back into the workshop. That's all it took and now I'm back to building full steam. I think the trick is to DO SOMETHING EVERYDAY (something else Paul told me when I first got started...I should have listened). It doesn't matter what you do. Finish an edge. Drill a hole. Debur something. Sweep the floor. Drain the compressor. Cleco something together. Organize your dimple dies. Clean your files. If all you have it 5 minutes, that's fine. Do something for 5 minutes. If you're so busy you don't have 5 minutes (as I was), set your alarm clock for 5 minutes ealier.

If you're waiting for a tech counselor to come check something out before you seal up a major subassembly, that's okay....move on to something else. Whenever I'm waiting on something (or maybe it's too late to be making a racket, or maybe I'm just plain ole' tired from a long day at work), pick a part at random, see where it fits on the plans, and edge finish it as appropriate. It only take 5 minutes, and it's one less pain in the butt job to do when you get to it. I have a whole collection of parts now that are edge finished and ready to go. It's a good feeling.

Hope this helps.
 
The most time-consuming, head-scratching, pensive hole that I have drilled in my 6A kit was that very first one in the horizontal stabilizer skin. Once you get past that first hole, you are hooked for life my friend!

Dive in and have at it, and by all means, enjoy the journey.

Regards,
 
N674P said:
...And I have neighbors that 1) has completed and flys an -8A, and 2) is building an -8A.
Click to expand...
I believe all builders need 3 things to complete their plane; time, money and want (desire). Without any one of those, you will not finish, YOU WILL NOT FINISH. I've known many builders who had the time and money but not enough want... you have to want this plane (and I wanted our something fierce!)

Has your flying neighbor given you a ride? Have you had a ride in any RV? Bill Benedict gave me my first ride 3 months after starting the kit and the next ride was 3 years later given by Gary Sobek. After 5 years of building, I was sitting in the left seat of our flying RV, and 'Oh what a feeling!'

Those few rides given by Bill, Gary and others during my 5 year building process were tremendously motivational. After each ride, I came home a building-fool. The RV rides went straight to the want 'bucket' and kept me building all the way to first flight.

I encourage you to find out what's missing there then fix it! ;)

Good luck, Rosie
 
23 years on the fence

I first found out you could build your own airplane in 1981 or so. I procrastinated for many of the same reasons you did, principally my tendency to abandon projects without finishing them. I fell in love with the Bushby Midget Mustang 1, and started bashing aluminum from plans, but something always made me stop.

Two things pushed me off the fence:

1) From 2000 to 2002, I went to grad school part time while working full time. I finished a Master's degree in Applied Physics with decent grades, taking two courses per semester, continuously, with only two summers off. I still managed to spend time with my family, do my job, sleep, etc. The time I spent on school was about 1800 hrs...about the time I figured it takes to build an airplane. Building an airplane -- like grad school -- requires time management: spend a little time on it every day, don't waste time channel surfing, have the discipline to treat each little job like an accomplishment in itself, not just as part of a bigger job. For instance, the other night I installed my rudder stops. Not a big job, but I went down there intending to finish just that, and I did.

2) Although I'd been aware of the RV-3 and -4 for a long time, I didn't pay attention to anything earlier than the RV-8. The more I learned about Van's modern kits the more I realized that the RV-7 was an airplane that I could finish, and that would be useful once I had it flying.

So the credit goes half to Van's and half to John's Hopkins University (and half to my wife and kids, to be honest...if you don't have your family's support, it's all over)

The QB kit is in my basement, and I'm about 300 hours into this...and about $25K if you count my tools. I'm going in debt to pay for it.

Good luck!
 
A long long long long time

34 years.......... 34 friggin' years since OSH '71! And up until about 2 years ago, I had filed this away as something I would never do in my life. DO NOT GIVE UP!

My life has made a 180 since then and I am living the dream. I love proseal.... and I kick myself for not trying harder to make the dream happen sooner because I could have if I WANTED it more than I obviously did at the time.

I find the task easy. It is hard for me to NOT be in the shop mentally ALL the time. I have to focus at work to give the company it's due rather than thinking about the next construction task or cool trick I'm going to build into the plane. Going out to eat or visit friends is out of the question! :D
 
Growing up my bedroom ceiling was full of airplane models hanging from fishing line. Mid 80's, my heart-throb was a Long-Ez. I took the 2 1/2 hour drive up to RAF in Mojave to drool probably half a dozen times. I wanted it bad at the time, but being just out of high school and still living with the parents I had no place to build it. Fiberglass didnt and doesnt bother me - I was building fishing boats at the time, so the thought of a glass plane was natural to me. Here I am 20 some years later, with a good paying job, married and with my own house (no rug rats), I let the wife know that my life long dream was to get a pilots license (I spent that money on dive equipment, so I never got that either) and build a plane of my own. The wife thinks I should finally realize these dreams and go for it - but first our finances need to be in order (pay off student loan & credit card). Looks like my flight lessons will begin this March and sometime just after Oshkosh I can start my RV-8. The other day my wife asked "You are going back to Oshkosh next year arent you?" - god I love that woman!
 
Thank you all - I've found these posts to be (as are the majority in these forums) enlightening and informative. And entertaining.
Of the three things I need to finish: 1) I have the same 24 hours in a day that everyone else has, and if I manage it better, I'm sure I'll have enough. 2) I've never given up on the Dream of building - I've always taken it as a given that I would. The failure to actually do it does indicate a lack of really wanting it... 3)I've never been able to afford a plane. We're currently on track to retire in 10 years at the "comfort" level we currently enjoy, plus supporting a plane. Where the money to acquire a plane in the first place is coming from we haven't really worked out yet. Which probably adds to my hesitance, though I think once I start rolling priorities will adjust and we will "find" the money in the budget somewhere.
I got a demo in the factory -6A about 10 years ago. Unbelievably awesome! My brother went up that day too, and he could hardly contain himself! For a guy that nothing ever fazes, it was startling to see him excited.
I used to think building would be a very solitary undertaking, but I have found, especially by way of these forums, that it can be overwhelmingly social - what a huge community! Now if only I were a sociable person...
 
I have been dreaming for about 8 years. I thought about just buying a Mooney or an Arrow or something. That would mean that I would have limited resources to do the -7 project, so I declined and jumped in with bboth feet!

Right about when Dan started his project I committed to the -7. That meant building a garage first, though!

DSCN0455.jpg


This took 2 years right off the top, as I did it all myself!

DSCN0499.jpg


I had a collegue who started an emp kit and just kept saying RV, RV, RV to me and I didn't initially want an RV because there were too many of them around! I wanted something unique!

Then I thought about it. This is my first plane. Do I want to be the only one around? HELL NO! A good decision on my part.

By the time I was done, I think Dan was flying!

I just completed the left tank and have the fuse parts on premises. No turning back now!

I am 39 years old now and plan on flying this plane for a good, long time!

Damn the torpedoes!

:D CJ
 
For me it's been about a year, 6-months since I made arrangements to actually have it happen. And today my -7 Emp & wings should be showing up at the airport :).
 
getting started

I couldn't wait to order the tail kit as soon as A&P school was over. Now its four years later and she's almost complete. Here's what I learned:

1. Going to the garage is like writing a paper in college - getting started is the hardest part.

2. Do SOMETHING everyday

3. Like an addiction, you will find the money for the next "fix"

I'm telling myself right now - get off the internet, go directly to the garage and continue with those baffles!

Bruce
 
Never too soon

I?ve had the typical distractions?kids, school, job, lack of money, and the most regretful was waiting until I could afford it.

Well I?m 42 and realize the years are slipping by and that I would never get to the point where I could ?afford? to buy the components outright.

I now have purchased the empennage for my RV-8 as well as all of the tools. I?ve put back half of the money for the quick build kit but can?t stand it any longer. I?m working to secure a loan and I want all of the parts here as soon as possible.

You?ll quickly learn that once you start there is nothing else like it. I can?t wait until the day I can post my ?first flight? story.

Donald Prater
RV-8 Empennage..QB kit on order shortly.
N284DP (Reserved)
 
Well you could just buy and fly

This might sound like heresy in a thread like this but I have really enjoyed fixing up an ALREADY FLYING RV6A. I get the best of both worlds, a fun flying experience, and the chance to do some challenging hands on projects to improve the creature comfort qualities of my airplane.

I'm always doing something to my plane. From covering an unpainted plane with a successful paint job, to adding a G-meter,to putting in a GPS, to installing a new intercom, the list is long and enjoyable. I have messed with avionics, fixed cracked skins, put on new tires, done multiple oil changes, and assisted in anual inspections. I'm now getting ready to put in electric flaps and there's always something more. I bought my 6A for a little over $40,000 which is less then you can build any RV7,8,or 9 for in parts alone.

Anyway a builder has to like building for building sake. I know several old guys that just stare at projects that are 90% done and 90% to go, and they don't really care if the plane flys at all! Thats not for me. I do respect the knowlage that the builder owners have about every nut,bolt,cable, and rivet in their planes because they slugged through the whole process. But with the advent of the internet bringing about fantastic web sights like "RVproject.com", I can learn tons about the guts of an RV, without having to do every long layered intricate process of RV assembly.The modern quickbuild kits are big step forward but of course the costs jump up by $10,000 for that option.I went to the RV Sportair workshop in Corona, ca and that was very useful for my overall understanding of how aluminum aircraft are put together. Someday I would consider building big badass fully aerobatic RV8A but not in the near future.

The CHOICE is, to build and not fly for several years letting all your flying skills get rusty, or for to fly a moderately priced RV now and keep those skills up while still indulging in intersting upgrade projects in the home buliders spirit. I could see people liking the former, but kicking the tires and lighting the fires stirs my blood, I need to fly.

Good Luck at what ever path you take.
 
I can't help noting that for the most part whenever I read about some-one's unbridled enthusiasm for building an RV ("I can't waaaaait to get out to the workshop at 6am every morning") it invariably comes from people still working on the empennage. Those guys are still on the honeymoon...and they're in luuurv. And as everyone knows, love is free...or at least no more expensive than an empennage kit.

Meanwhile the guys who are well into the slow build fuse and beyond know that the honeymoon is over and what's keeping the marriage together (you and the plane) is plenty of patience, perserverance and as George Harrison said, "lots of folding money".

It's a long long haul building a slow build. A bit like a marathon actually. The sprinters tend to fall to the wayside. The net has scores of of badly built empennage kits for sale.

Some people say:"Anybody can learn to fly". It's a generous sentiment but it's simply not true. Likewise, it takes certain innate qualities to complete a major long term project such as constructing a well-built aircraft. It's been my observation that not everyone has those qualities.

To quote AC/DC: "It's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll".
 
Everybody is different. Follow your instinct, think it through, and get started. Do it your own way and modify procedure as necessary to fit your individual situation.

As with everything else in life, do the best you can, and don't worry about what the other guy is doing...or saying.

We're not curing cancer here, we're only building airplanes. Choices can always be changed. But do it your way, don't adopt someone else's schedule, and don't fall into the trap of needing to have something or do something because that's the way someone else did it or is doing it.

People will tell you there's only one way to do this because most folks have built only one plane and one way is the only way they know. But that doesn't mean there isn't another way.

Follow your instinct. Listen to your brain. Begin. Or not.
 
Bob Barrow said:
I can't help noting that for the most part whenever I read about some-one's unbridled enthusiasm for building an RV ("I can't waaaaait to get out to the workshop at 6am every morning") it invariably comes from people still working on the empennage...............
Meanwhile the guys who are well into the slow build fuse and beyond know that the honeymoon is over................................It's a long long haul building a slow build..............The sprinters tend to fall to the wayside.......................it takes certain innate qualities to complete a major long term project.........................
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Bob,

You seem to be an extremely perceptive individual. As you have likely guessed, there are many, many people out there who are very good at talking the talk. However, the sheer number of aborted or stillborn projects that will never fly speak volumes of the value of conversation as opposed to getting in there and building. The insufferable vocalist will always be among us and you can be sure as his interest dissipates, will move on to yet another diversion and surely crave the hapless ear of other enthusiasts once again. I wholeheartedly believe in the familiar words "Know thyself." As you have probably discerned from some of the more opinionated builders among us, it DOES takes a certain amount of tunnel vision, tenacity, even bullheadedness to see a project through to the end. Brilliance of mind is NOT among those personal qualities that will see an airplane completed. I should know. I know I'm not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree! I can live with it. My low point in the process came when the major sheet metal work was essentially complete and the daunting realization set in that I was only 50% done and the truly major work and expenses still loomed. I believe what helped me through was I have always been willing to do repetitive, even boring tasks for hours on end. Example: I have completed a fair amount of stained glass projects from Victorian window panels to large wildlife mosiacs by cutting and fashioning tiny individual pieces of art glass. Anybody who has done such work well understands how tedius that can be! I need to work with my hands. I like to build things, even put together 1000 piece jigsaw puzzles. I think Ken Scott put it best when he said in "The RV Story," and I'm paraphrasing here.....you either "get" to build it or you feel you "have" to build it. In the end Bob, "Know thyself."

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
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Different strokes

There will always be those who speak of the gloomy times or how those that are at the empennage stage are naive because of their excitement. I believe that if you truly have a life long desire to build that that will remain throughout the project, even during the times when you are questioning why you were crazy enough to begin a project of this magnitude. Surely there will be times when your frustrations will tempt you to stop building for a while and do other things. Others have worked right through these temptations; this is the reason for some planes being completed within 9 months to a year and others taking up to 9 years or longer.

All I know is that you won?t ever finish if you don?t ever start. Even though I am very early on in the process, my motivation and drive comes from reading first flight stories, or being at the airport and watching a group of RV?s depart for another of their frequent adventures. I know in my mind I?m init until the finish.

The old saying is some have to build it to fly it, others get to build it to fly it. Fortunately I?m one of the ones that feels I get to build it to fly it.

Which one are you?


Donald Prater
RV-8 Empennage
N284DP (Reserved)
 
You sort of hit on the secret, Rick. And that is, for me anyway, it always helps to attack it one little step at a time until all the steps add up to a finished project.

If you wake up every morning fixating on how much you have left, it can be a bit overwhelming.
But if you wake up each morning planning on just doing those 1 or 2 or 3 steps you wanted to get done before heading for bed, it becomes a lot easier.
 
Rick6a said:
Bob,
it DOES takes a certain amount of tunnel vision, tenacity, even bullheadedness to see a project through to completion.
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Sure, and I think everyone goes through. But that's true with almost everything. But everyone CAN build an RV, but not everyone will always WANT to at every stage. And that's where the stick-to-itiveness comes in.

However, I don't think that can be pre-determined. For one, thing, the challenge is different. Folks give up bulding for a number of reasons. Maybe the family dynamic has changed and there isn't time. Some people might stick to it by accepting divorce, or letting the kids grow up without them. Some might spend less time on the project. In any case, you're setting priorities and then living with them.

The only thing we can say for certain, is those times WILL come and the priority one establishes can only be made at that time in consideration of that situation, and only by that person.

I saw a beautiful RV at Oshkosh a few years ago and the builder proudly noted that it took 16 years to build. And there were two of them. I KNOW that they didn't work on it every day, and I doubt they worked out it consistenlty and I'm sure it was abandoned for a time. And yet, they built it and flew it to Oshkosh.

So about all we can say, is there WILL be challenges to be made, and one will have to sacrifice something. So one can start building and then give up, and then start again 14 years from now, and that's fine.

Know thyself is the key. When do you want to have it done and what sacrifices will have to be made to finish by that date.

I have a firm date for when my plane will be finished: the day it's done.
My goal is to end up with a plane, have a marriage (23 years , so far so good), see my kid's little league games, birthdays etc (mission accomplished)) and never give any indication that this project is more important than the people I love.

Some people have the same expectations. Some people have different ones.
 
Oh, one other thing, no matter what people tell you... you'll learn things about yourself and building even if you don't finish the RV. That's part of life's journey.

Even if you start, and never finish, you may get something out of the process that will last a lifetime. You may meet a friend at an RV Forum, you may understand why planes fly better...Lord knows the possibilities.

"I might not finish" isn't necessarily a good answer to the question "why shouldn't I start building."
 
i agree with the honeymoon/in love stage of the empennage, as i'm there. but, i just ordered my wings yesterday, and i have the same feelings as a lot of us do. that is, i "get to" build this airplane. there is no "have to" for me, 'cuz i've owned two airplanes in the past, and now have access to several airplanes when i need one (may not be like this forever, but it's great right now!). i'm building 'cuz it's something i've always wanted to do (since i started building model airplanes around 8 years of age). i'm in no rush, and i fully expect to have my marriage and family in tact at the end of this project. if it takes me 10 years, so be it. but, i do feel that doing something with it daily, even if it's one minute going over plans, keeps me motivated (hope it stays that way!).

i like to think of it that same way as highflight, focus on the 1 or 2 smaller projects, not as a whole airplane to finish. :)
 
My five minutes

After reading all the posts in this thread I thought, what the heck, I can at least put in five minutes.

I got hung up on what a lot of people would call a very minor issue. I just plain could not figure out how I was going to dimple the last two holes next to the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. Every process that I came up with would either not fit the tools, or put too much stress on the curve of the leading edge.

This one little problem kept me from working on my plane since hurricane Rita's interuption. The fear of messing up a part that you have invested considerable time into building, can be a show-stopper. I don't mind buying new parts, but having to order a new skin that I've fitted, clecoed, drilled, deburred, reclecoed, fitted again, dimpled and then primed is not something I want to do.

For the last few weeks I've walked by my project several times a day, every day. And each time that I passed it, I thought about those two little holes. As I thought about the problems those holes were causing, I would just keep on walking.

Until today.

After reading so many comments about the stumbling blocks that others have had to deal with, it sorta put my problem into perspective. I wanted to take a minute and thank everyone for their comments. Especially John for his 5 minute mantra =)

It turned out that my over-engineered dimpling table was so thick, that I simply could not fit the tools into the space I had left. I modified my table and finished my dimpling.

Woot !

Lee Jordan
RV-8 empennage
 
Good for you, Lee. And at some point in the building process, it'll occur to you that you have more confidence than you did when you started. You can put that thing away tomorrow and never look at it again, and yet...there you are! You and your confidence.

So folks who want to start building, should just build. They'll get something out of it and if things fall into place, there might even be a plane among them.
 
Hi All.

I first considered the idea of building my own airplane about 7 years ago when a coworker mentioned the desire to build a Velocity. Until then, I had no idea that it was even possible to build your own airplane.

I did some research and decided a Lancair might be more what I wanted. It wasn't long until I flashed back to the days of endless hours of sanding bondo on my '67 Camaro and how much I hated it. Guess a 'glass plane wouldn't work for me. I don't remember how I found Van's website but I've been drooling on the RV-8 since.

I finally got my first ride in an RV-7 with Mike Seager at OSH this year, and a follow-up ride in a -9A later this summer. I was more committed than ever and have finally finished electrifying, insulating and drywalling my airplane factory (garage.)

My wonderful wife gave the thumbs up last week and my -8 emp kit should be on my doorstep by the end of the week! Hopefully now I can be more of a contributor to this site rather than a lurker.

--Ken
 
Bob Collins said:
So folks who want to start building, should just build. They'll get something out of it and if things fall into place, there might even be a plane among them.
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Bob, I can sense your personal exuberance...and with 4 postings on this topic in 24 hours I can see that you have something to say....it's just that I can't quite work out what it is.

Building an RV is a very serious financial undertaking for the average guy. After buying a home it may in some instances turn out to be the second most expensive capital purchase in his life. And a poorly built and incomplete project is guaranteed to crystallize large losses. I'm not sure of the wisdom of encouraging day dreamers to "just start building".

It might be more prudent for them to sit down and seriously calculate the cost of the committment (and not fairyland figures from the Vans website calculator). After putting a realistic number on the project they should then be in a position to assess whether that sum of money is reasonable to spend on a boy's toy given their current position. As to whether they have the self discipline to see the project through....well everyone needs to take a good loooong look into the mirror on that one.

We live in a world of growing impatience and the tendency is for people in first world countries to seek virtually instant gratification of their desires. There's no instant gratification in an RV project...unless you buy one already completed.
 
Bob Barrow said:
Bob, I can sense your personal exuberance...and with 4 postings on this topic in 24 hours I can see that you have something to say....it's just that I can't quite work out what it is.
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I can't help you there, my friend. And, sure, I would certainly recommend that people sit down and figure out what an airplane costs but undertaking , atually beginning, an airplane project is NOT expensive at all, actually. A tail kit goes from about $1600 as I recall. Not a small amount of money, but not a house either; shoot that's someone's cellphone bill for a month.

Then you have wings. OK, another 5-grand. Serious stuff to be sure.

Now, I'd be interested in at what stage of construction, people tend to abandon projects. I'm willing to bet it's in the empennage and/or wings stage.

The folks who are going to quit, I'm willing to bet have done so by the time the fuselage arrives. That's another 5-grand. And around the time that's completed, now you're talking about big bucks.

that's pretty far down the building chaiin and if you decide you don't want to build...you can always sell your project and get back some money, maybe all your money. but if there's a completed wing,c ompleted fuselage, completed empennage, avionics laden, new engine project lying around in someone's garage somewhere while the owner struggles to make payment son the house, boy, I'd sure like to know about it.

What you don't get back is the price for the enjoyment you got or the skills your learned or the time you spent. Some people spend more at strip clubs.

Nobody's suggesting anybody jump in uneducated. Certainly planning is a big part of it. But the building community -- or maybe the "built" community -- is starting to pick up a nasty superhero complex.

And beginning to build an airplane isn't a big gamble. It's actually a very little gamble in the big scheme of things. But gambles come in all shapes and colors. Some people have watched their flying skills decline, and their marriages fail while building. They've spent holidays out in the shop while the famikly was inside, and the kids have grown up while they've bucked rivets. That was a gamble, to be sure, but that's their gamble and their decision to make. Like I said, I know other people who took 16 years to build a plane, kept their marriage alive, saw all the kids' school plays, and paid for their airplanes in cash, having ignored the people who told them to "hurry up."

That's the way they approached it.

There's only one correct way to build an airplane. The way you want to.

It doesn't take a special person to build an airplane. It just takes average people doing special things.

You can't possibly know whether you're that person, until you try. We should always encourage people to try. They might be the next friend we make.
 
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I wish I had read Bob's posts years ago

I waited longer than I should have to start building thinking I needed to have more money saved. Reading more about how just getting started is the most important step, and reading how the empennage is a reletively inexpensive way to get started would have been very helpful 5 or 6 years ago.

If someone is passionate about building an airplane they should get enough free cash to start an empennage, and get going.

As for my story for the original question in the thread: I decided that I was going to build an airplane in 1990 as I walked onto the grounds at Oshkosh the first time and realized that all these airplanes in front of me were homebuilt (at that time you walked into a filed of Vari-ez's just a little way inside the gate). Ok, so I was a 15 year old sailplane pilot with no money at the time. So the plan became finish high school and college, get a good job, save some money, build an airplane. I'm about a third of the way through that last step, but I realize now that I could have been closer to the end if I had just started building earlier.

One last point, if money is tight it is very easy to slow the building process while you save some more money. There is nothing bad about taking 5, 10, 15+ years to finish.
 
keen9a said:
I waited longer than I should have to start building thinking I needed to have more money saved.
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Remember that old saying, "if you waited to have kids until you could afford to have kids, you'll never have kids"? That's so true. Same thing with building airplanes, I think. The one thing I keep thinking as I build this thing and have a blast and figure out ways to bring in the money to keep going is, "I wish I'd done this when I was younger."
 
Time, Money and ability???

Great thread...like to keep it going.

Can "anyone" build a RV? Time and $$$ are one thing...but how about the ability? I can turn a wrench but am no A and P. I didn't build model airplanes or rebuild lawn mower engines as a kid. When itcomesto building things...give me the pictures and not the instructions written by an engineer. I've owned my own a/c before and did much of the "prep" work when it came to annuals.

So how much "ability" does it take? How much "head scratching" time is spent during the different phases? Airframe...FWF..avionics? Are the instructions provided by VAns' straight forward enough for the none engineer type? How is the learning curve after bangin' rivets?

SW
-8 preconstruction forms in the mail!
2-car garage measured.
waiting to pull trigger
 
f16weav said:
Can "anyone" build a RV? Time and $$$ are one thing...but how about the ability?
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SW--I suspect anyone would have the ability. In my opinion, a much more important issue is whether or not one has the temperament, a different issue altogether. Resisting the urge to just build on when you know something needs to be fixed or waiting until we have the right tool for the job, is sometimes tough for all of us, but oh so important when building airplanes. If you have that self-discipline, you'll be fine. Drilling, deburring, riveting, etc. are the easy parts.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth. Building sure is fun, though! Good luck.
 
f16weav said:
Can "anyone" build a RV? Time and $$$ are one thing...but how about the ability?
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The only ability you need is the ability to learn. There are plenty of places to learn. SportAir workshops, online tutorials, these forums, various publications, Orndorff videos, a trip to Oshkosh, a visit with another builder etc.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
SW--I suspect anyone would have the ability. In my opinion, a much more important issue is whether or not one has the temperament, a different issue altogether.
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I agree, although -- and I might be restating this -- one should not underestimate the ability of an RV project to change you, possibly for the better. If you didn't have a certain temperament or patience at the beginning, you may well have it at the end.

Keep in mind the point of the experimental category is EDUCATION. Personal growth qualifies.
 
Can "anyone" build?

f16weav said:
...Can "anyone" build a RV? Time and $$$ are one thing...but how about the ability? I can turn a wrench but am no A and P. I didn't build model airplanes or rebuild lawn mower engines as a kid. When itcomesto building things...give me the pictures and not the instructions written by an engineer. I've owned my own a/c before and did much of the "prep" work when it came to annuals.

So how much "ability" does it take? How much "head scratching" time is spent during the different phases? Airframe...FWF..avionics? Are the instructions provided by VAns' straight forward enough for the none engineer type? How is the learning curve after bangin' rivets?
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Look at it this way - there have been over 4400 RVs completed. Taking into account "repeat offenders", there are probably about 4000 people that have managed to build one. I'm sure you can turn a wrench better than at least one of those guys!

Seriously, the instructions are good, but they start great, and taper off as the project progresses. I'm not sure if this was by design, or if the guys that needed to document how to build one just kind of got tired of writing. In any case, it's *very* rare that you can't figure out what needs to be done from the instructions and the plans. On top of that, you've got other builders that can help, be they local or on the net.

As we age past our 20s, taking on new intellectual challenges helps keep us sharp. This is one of those for me. As they say, use it or lose it!
 
f16weav said:
...............Can "anyone" build a RV? Time and $$$ are one thing...
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In the interests of broadening any potential market, we know it is little more than self-serving and shrewd marketing savvy to boldly suggest that "anyone" can do "it." In my view, such a sentiment is nonsense. It is questionable reasoning to suppose either naively or even disingenuously that "anyone" can build something as complex as an airplane. I came from a aircraft production environment where mature adults were routinely weeded out because they could not drill a simple straight hole or even set a small rivet without causing undo peripheral damage. We all know an "Uncle Phil" who can't hang a picture on the wall, replace a door knob, change the battery in his smoke detector or even change the tire on his car. And I'm supposed to believe that good ol' Uncle Phil, even if he put his heart and soul into it can build an airplane?
I do, however, believe that temperment and attitude are far greater predictors of eventual success in many endeavors, and that includes airplane construction than a vast personal reservoir of intellectual talent. Theoretically, all that is required to build an airplane is a fair amount of physical dexterity, yet unfortunately, some people (like my Uncle Phil) do not even possess that quality. Beyond that, in the real world it is a complex stew of personal qualities that render success and like people themselves, no two recipes are exactly alike. But common ingredients can be discerned...and those include no small measure of things like desire and perseverance.
Rick Galati
 
temperament or patience

Temperament and patience?? is this something that comes with age?? :D I hope so!

I can see there are many great sources of information. I fly with a couple of RV builders at my "day VFR" flying job, have met Jay Pratt at Hicks, have combed the dozen of outstanding RV forums (are you guys web designers or kit builders?), been to Osh 2004, visited the Van's factory in OR. two weeks and know a couple of local A & P's and builders....all that is left is to "pull the trigger"!..oh and get the wife on board..and budget $50-70K over the next 2-5 years. Sending the kids to a good, solid in-state school is OK right? Maybe a CC or JC? :D

Thanks to the positive inputs. Keep em coming.

SW
-8 preconstruction forms in the mail.
diagram(back of a napkin) of workshop in 2-car garage complete.
 
Rick6a said:
... We all know an "Uncle Phil" who can't hang a picture on the wall, replace a door knob, change the battery in his smoke detector or even change the tire on his car. And I'm supposed to believe that good ol' Uncle Phil, even if he put his heart and soul into it can build an airplane?
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Isn't this what Quickbuild's are for? :eek: :D ;)

I think I will run for cover now! :D
 
f16weav said:
Thanks to the positive inputs. Keep em coming.
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Also, continuing with the theme of being different when you finish from when you start, do not understimate the transformative value of a ride in an RV. Run out of patience, go for a ride in an RV. Getting frustrated by how long it's taking? Go for a ride in an RV. Think you can't do it? Go for a ride in an RV.

I keep remembering the article in one of the mags a few years ago about the guy who paid for his project by collecting aluminum cans by the side of the road.

That you will need the desire to build is obvious. I doubt anyone has ever built an RV who didn't want to. But I can almost guarantee you that there are a lot of RV pilots right now who are constantly amazed that they did it. Even if they had every intention of doing so when they started, they still recognized the value of the project for its positive attributes that go beyond the plane itself.
 
Rick6a said:
In the interests of broadening any potential market, we know it is little more than self-serving and shrewd marketing savvy to boldly suggest that "anyone" can do "it." In my view, such a sentiment is nonsense. It is questionable reasoning to suppose either naively or even disingenuously that "anyone" can build something as complex as an airplane.
Rick Galati
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These are the words of a wise man. Some people assume that just by completing the construction of an RV you somehow win by default. Not so. Many of the RVs I see at fly-ins are substandard and I personally would not go up in them. Building a safe plane is a very meticulous task and many people do not have it in their nature to be meticulous. Building a safe plane also requires that you must formally educate yourself in a number of diverse technical areas. Some people are loathe to study anything in a systematic way. Building a safe plane also requires patience...and there's a dearth of that around as well.

Put it this way. If Vans can build an RV and have a wing fall off..then certainly so can you.

When people build a plane badly they usually reach an emotional catharsis about the time of completion of the fuselage. That's when they realise that they have to start spending the really big money...and the plane's just not up to scratch. It's a depressing realisation.

There's a lot of would-be pied pipers in the RV fraternity. They talk in feel-good terms about jumping in and getting going. They're usually old codgers who encourage day dreamers to waste a lot of time and money. Best to stick with your intuition. If it tells you that you probably haven't got the attributes to tackle a major building project with a very steep learning curve ...then you probaby haven't.
 
Show quality vs Safe flying RV

Bob Barrow said:
Put it this way. If Vans can build an RV and have a wing fall off..then certainly so can you.
QUOTE]

I have not heard this story! :eek: Does anyone have a NTSB link or more details of this story? ........ back to the issue of quality vs. safety.

I'm sure there are many levels of quality workmanship, but out of the 4400 RV's flying how many are safe to fly? I assume near 99.9% or they won't be certified. Out of all the kits sold, how many builders stopped building due to "quality" or saftey issues? How many were turned down at DAR inspection or sooner? I'm sure there are a few, but are there layers of "quality control" to insure safe flying aircraft thoughout out the building porcess or is it self imposed? A second time builder will naturally have a higher standard vs a newbie.

Out of 4400 RV's flying how many are "show" quality? 1 footers? 6'? Do we judge the quality of workmanship by the outside metal work? Do other RV builders and now self proclaimed RV judges, go around at fly-ins and mark a poor rivet or two or a scratched with a red marker and say...aha! "found one!" or "I won't fly this piece of crap"? But is this RV prefectly safe to fly for the next 20+ years? Is the 6' just as safe as the 1'...just not as pretty?

If some of these "red marker" RV builders saw the outside of the 737, 757 or MD 80's flying around the country today, they'd never fly the airlines again!

SW
-8 Preconstruction forms in the mail.
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building motivation

f16weav said:
Sending the kids to a good, solid in-state school is OK right? Maybe a CC or JC?
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Just do like my dad did - he brought home some brochures of the three universities he would pay for, as long as I got in. USMA, USAFA, and USNA. :)

Bob Barrow said:
Put it this way. If Vans can build an RV and have a wing fall off..then certainly so can you.
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It doesn't matter who builds the RV, or just about any other aircraft, if you fly it outside the design limitations, you can break it. I've never heard of an RV suffering an in-flight structural failure due to bad workmanship, but I'm willing to be educated.
 
rv8ch said:
.......................I've never heard of an RV suffering an in-flight structural failure due to bad workmanship, but I'm willing to be educated.
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Someone please jump in here if your recollection is more accurate than mine....... I seem to recall a few years ago, an RV-4 suffered an in-flight structural failure. The cause was clearly bad workmanship. As I remember it, the builder failed to properly install key components that tied the empennage assembly to the fuselage. If anyone recollects the precise details of this particular event, it might serve the RV community well as a reminder on the perils of deviating from the designers' intent.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
I vaguely remember something about an RV's tail flying off because a bunch of bolts were missing, or something like that. I don't remember the details, but it went way beyond bad workmanship. The plane just missing a couple of very important odds and ends nescessary for flight :)
 
Rick6a said:
Someone please jump in here if your recollection is more accurate than mine....... I seem to recall a few years ago, an RV-4 suffered an in-flight structural failure. The cause was clearly bad workmanship. As I remember it, the builder failed to properly install key components that tied the empennage assembly to the fuselage. If anyone recollects the precise details of this particular event, it might serve the RV community well as a reminder on the perils of deviating from the designers' intent.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
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I think there are two flights at issue here, but again, the memory fails. I know there is one that's documented in the 2X years of RVAtor that appears to have been a case of overstressing in flight. And there was another one -- in fact I was just reading Van's article on this the other day and can't remember where -- in which there was significant ommissions of steps in the build process.

I can't recall any accident caused by the design, built to specs.

I'll say it again. You don't have to be a special person to build an RV. But you have to be willing to do some special work.
 
Bob Barrow said:
They're usually old codgers who encourage day dreamers to waste a lot of time and money. Best to stick with your intuition. If it tells you that you probably haven't got the attributes to tackle a major building project with a very steep learning curve ...then you probaby haven't.
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Good advice. Lousy quoting.:D
 
f16weav said:
I have not heard this story! :eek: Does anyone have a NTSB link or more details of this story? ........ back to the issue of quality vs. safety.

I'm sure there are many levels of quality workmanship, but out of the 4400 RV's flying how many are safe to fly? I assume near 99.9% or they won't be certified. .
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Here's a link to the NTSB report on the Vans demo plane wing failure. Blamed overstressing. Of course even a very small ding with a bucking bar on the wing spar could ultimately cause this sort of failure due to work of fracture.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X10121&key=1

But don't get bogged down too much on the hull. There's a fair bit of redundancy there in an RV. However shoddy workmanship on the hull is always a good indicator of shoddy workmanship in other areas with little or no redundancy (such as the fuel supply system). Look at the number of RVs that have experienced fuel starvation problems.

It always amuses me that many potential builders seem to think that because everyone builds the same RV kit the finished planes must end up being pretty much all the same (except for the intruments and paint job). Nothing could be further from the truth. I find the difference in quality between RVs to be massive. Some planes are absolute works of art and a joy to behold. Many others are less crafted but are hopefully good safe planes non-the-less. But some RVs are absolute dogs...literally thrown together by builders with neither skills, nor patience.

I'm sorry if I've shattered any illusions, but that's the way it is. You simply can't expect a slowbuild RV that's had 1000 impatient hours put into it to be the same as one that's had 6000 hours lovingly lavished on it.

As for safety inspections. Well, only you and God are going to know if the AN fuel fittings have been torqued correctly.

There are people out there who like to imagine that safety and quality in plane building are different things...that somehow you can have a safe build without a quality build. For the life of me I can't imagine why they would think this to be true.
 
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