[John C]

John,

What is your sink rate on short final at 65mph and what RPM are you carrying? I've found that in my FP 9A that if I get below 70 IAS on final my sink rate gets pretty high and my flare gets pretty nose high in order to break it. I try to keep it right at 70 all the way down final with no power and bleed it off as I cross the numbers. I tried doing 65mph approaches but had a tendency to 'plop' it on a bit and the nose got too high in the flare to break the sink rate. Probably need to go out and do some more practice at the slower speeds some time.

Matthew, the use of 70 and bleeding off the airspeed over the numbers works well for me also. I don't pay a lot of attention to sink rate and it moves around as I adjust speeds. At 70, I seem to be getting about 400-500 fpm on the legs and 500-600 in the turns. AT 65, I get another 100-150 feet per minute. I will watch more carefully next good day and report back. On final at either 65 or 70, the airplane will tend to pick up sink rate going below 100 feet. I will be bleeding off speed, lessening the sink rate, to be at below 60 over the threshold at 10-20 feet, then hold the nose on the horizon to let it settle. I do that for the practice. With Pax on board, I aim for the numbers instead of a few feet past the threshold and if the airplane settles a little will touch down in the end stripes.

I will plop more when I am using 65 rather than 70 but they are getting fewer and fewer. If the sink rate is picking up, bump the power to help out.

 

[John C]

Excellent report, John. The 9 IS a different machine with fixed pitch prop and its 28 foot wing.

I am very interested in the performance of your airplane with the fixed pitch prop. How does take off roll compare to Van's 250-400' number? Would you feel comfortable flying out of 2200' of grass?

dd

David, I think Vans number for the 160 hp are just fine. My empty weight is 1050 and with me and a load of fuel on a cool day, I line up at the very end, push the power up, cross the stripes in the touchdown zone, get airborne over the numbers and sometimes am 100 feet high at the 1,000 foot stripes. My first flight I was 1,000 feet high at the end of the 5,000 feet runway and thought my altimeter was really screwed up. By the time I had turned downwind, I was at 2,000 feet.

I took off at 1700 pounds and 93 degrees on pavement the other day. The acceleration was noticably slower but I was still climbing well at the 1,000 feet stripes. I don't have any experience about the effects of grass height, ground softness to comment about turf takeoffs. I would use partial flaps, get the stick way back. I would expect to be very comfortable with 2,200 feet of turf, grass not too high, clear departure end, hot day and fully loaded. I would sneak up on that scenario though.

I am sure there are others who do have the proper experience. Perhaps they will comment.

 

[akarmy]

I am very interested in the performance of your airplane with the fixed pitch prop. How does take off roll compare to Van's 250-400' number? Would you feel comfortable flying out of 2200' of grass?

Well, my 9A is setup with 160HP, FP 70cm79 sensenich, 1034lbs empty...

I flew daily off my Dad's 1800ft grass strip in Virginia and we left out of there with 2 people, full baggage, and half fuel (near 1700lbs). No problem clearning the 60ft trees at the end.

I've also flown in and out of 1000ft grass with clear approaches (It was doable, but the pucker factor was a bit high) Had 2 aboard also.

Lastly 2200 ft grass strip locally here that might as well be 10,000ft as it's no problem at all.

The thing I learned about the 9 doing grass and climbs over trees etc. Normally I lift off and accelerate to about 110 for the climb out. On the short strips, lower the flaps to match the down aileron, lift off as soon as possible and hold the nose up to climb between 65-70mph and it will just sail up over those trees.

Have fun out there!

 

[pierre smith]

No

Old concept but much like adding a ballistic recovery parachute to a Skyhawk!
These airplanes are not THAT fast!

 

[vlittle]

Pete: you've been asking about slowing the 9A down. A commercial bush pilot gave me a tip that I tried today with success.

When above Vfe in the 9A, use an aggressive forward slip to bleed off energy. You'll get some minor pitch oscillations, but it's pretty effective if you have strong legs.

Use this technique to lose altitude and reduce speed to below Vfe, then add flaps as required. Once flaps are deployed, you are increasing lift/reducing stall speed more than adding drag (especially in the 9A with 32 degrees max), so think of the slip as drag and the flaps as lift.

It's all about dissipating energy. We need to bleed energy off to slow down and get down at the same time. The best way to do this is add drag. Slipping in a 9A is a lot of work but it seems to work. It's certainly cheaper than adding speed brakes or a CS prop. It also gives you a better view of the runway out the side window

Vern

 

[RV9798]

Success at last..

The ZOOM up seems to work well for me for bleeding off speed. I think, I am getting the hang of it. I tried the side slip and it worked, my wife did not like that approach...so idle and zoom up to bleed off the speed. The approach speed in this machine is so sweet and slow...I love it...I look good greasing most of my landings.

Pete

 

[vlittle]

The ZOOM up seems to work well for me for bleeding off speed. I think, I am getting the hang of it. I tried the side slip and it worked, my wife did not like that approach...so idle and zoom up to bleed off the speed. The approach speed in this machine is so sweet and slow...I love it...I look good greasing most of my landings.

Pete

Pete, I talked to Gus at the homecoming, and he has the same troubles that we have with a fixed pitch RV-9A. He even admitted to some overshoots in the beginning.

He suggested just pulling up to a slow speed and letting it mush down. I've used this technique, but I prefer the slip (better visibility).

One thing I haven't tried (because it scares the willies out of the controllers) is a 360 degree turn on final to adjust the approach. During my PPL training, I was also taught figure-8 turns (always turn towards the field), but this would be even more bizarre.

Gus thought that a belly board speed brake would be exciting. If we could make it scream like a Stuka, then that would make for interesting approaches at fly-ins!

Vern

 

[David-aviator]

Pete, I talked to Gus at the homecoming, and he has the same troubles that we have with a fixed pitch RV-9A. He even admitted to some overshoots in the beginning.

He suggested just pulling up to a slow speed and letting it mush down. I've used this technique, but I prefer the slip (better visibility).

One thing I haven't tried (because it scares the willies out of the controllers) is a 360 degree turn on final to adjust the approach. During my PPL training, I was also taught figure-8 turns (always turn towards the field), but this would be even more bizarre.

Gus thought that a belly board speed brake would be exciting. If we could make it scream like a Stuka, then that would make for interesting approaches at fly-ins!

Vern

Whatever works, Vern. But I don't want to imitate a sitting duck Stuka. The Spits and Hurricanes cremated them in the Battle of Britain.

This is not authorized or recommended at a public airport, but it works well out in the isolated boonies.

After clearing the area at our private grass strip yesterday, came down the runway at 160, pulled up turning 45? right, rolled out straight ahead for a moment as speed dissipated, dropped 20 flaps, turned back left 225? while descending, and landed. A modified tactical approach, so as to avoid enemy fire as much as possible - you never know about these darn terrorists these days.

Speed can be dissipated lots of ways, it's all a matter of technique and what suits the individual pilot. Zoom ups, slips, S turns, add drag - all work - and most of the time, pulling the throttle back in a timely manner works great, too.

dd
RV-7A
Subby H6
(flyin' is fun)

 

[vlittle]

Whatever works, Vern. But I don't want to imitate a sitting duck Stuka. The Spits and Hurricanes cremated them in the Battle of Britain.

This is not authorized or recommended at a public airport, but it works well out in the isolated boonies.

After clearing the area at our private grass strip yesterday, came down the runway at 160, pulled up turning 45? right, rolled out straight ahead for a moment as speed dissipated, dropped 20 flaps, turned back left 225? while descending, and landed. A modified tactical approach, so as to avoid enemy fire as much as possible - you never know about these darn terrorists these days.

Speed can be dissipated lots of ways, it's all a matter of technique and what suits the individual pilot. Zoom ups, slips, S turns, add drag - all work - and most of the time, pulling the throttle back in a timely manner works great, too.

dd
RV-7A
Subby H6
(flyin' is fun)

I'll try that at the local airport.... the controllers will love it!

 

[ddurakovich]

I'm a little green here. Can somebody explain an overhead approach and how to properly fly one? I did not learn this maneuver in my PP training.

That's because, by definition, a steep turn is 45 degrees for a PP!

60 degrees, 2G, is a standard private pilot maneuver..

I'm afraid it's not even a Commercial Pilot manuever! Their's is 50 plus or minus 5 for the checkride

A pet peeve of mine, obviously. We teach manuevers to 14 year old kids to go out and fly solo in gliders that power pilots with thousands of hours consider dangerous and foolish.

Even CFI's aren't required to demonstrate a 60 degree banked turn anymore.

How sad.....

 

[David-aviator]

That's because, by definition, a steep turn is 45 degrees for a PP!


I'm afraid it's not even a Commercial Pilot manuever! Their's is 50 plus or minus 5 for the checkride

A pet peeve of mine, obviously. We teach manuevers to 14 year old kids to go out and fly solo in gliders that power pilots with thousands of hours consider dangerous and foolish.

Even CFI's aren't required to demonstrate a 60 degree banked turn anymore.

But they are required to survive getting into and out of a spin....something no one else has to demonstrate, not even an ATP, except maybe you glider guys, don't know about that.

How sad.....

Could be, Dave, less G's are in vogue 'cause many check airmen are getting up in the years and don't like pulling G's, not even 2. A smooth, minimum G pilot can pass any check ride, just don't get the ol' man sick, scare him or buz the tower.

dd
(flyin' is fun)

 

[ddurakovich]

But they are required to survive getting into and out of a spin....something no one else has to demonstrate, not even an ATP, except maybe you glider guys, don't know about that.

Not specifically required, but when you live on the edge of a stall during most of your flying (usually 45 - 60 degrees at 1.1 x Vs), in close proximitry to other gliders in thermals, it's a good idea the young pups know what to expect

 

[flyboy1963]

how to get these 'suckers' to slow down fast?

I have just a few hours on my -9a, and agree speed in the circuti/descent control is a big challenge.
I plan lots of higher altitude practice slipping until proficient.
We managed to invoke a pretty violent forward pitch from a full flap/ power on straight stall. No wing drop, just everything hit the canopy, nose past vertical (down) and at least 600+ feet to recover, while the speed ran thru 140 kts.
good chance to overstress flaps etc if not managed properly.
I think the -9 is a real pussycat to land etc. in most situations.
Train to be ready for those 'other' situations!

 

[Bob Axsom]

I pull the nose up

As I am approaching the airport I pull the nose up and trimit and allow the speed to bleed off to flap deployment speed. Then I lower the flaps, get in close and slip it all the way down to just short of the runway the roll out to landing attitude and fly it on with the nose wheel held off. Let it roll until it is very slow then I softly let it down. If you are high on final it is important to slip it down to a practical altitude rather than trying to bleed off the speed up high.

If you are very fast as on an expedited approach (keep your speed up a Falcon is following you on the approach) and you are approaching the runway far too fast but you managed to get rid of the altitude before the runway you can slip the plane in level flight sidways down the runway until you feel the excess speed has been disipated then straigten it out and land normally.

Bob Axsom

 

[SteinAir]

As I am approaching the airport I pull the nose up and trimit and allow the speed to bleed off to flap deployment speed. Then I lower the flaps, get in close and slip it all the way down to just short of the runway the roll out to landing attitude and fly it on with the nose wheel held off. Let it roll until it is very slow then I softly let it down. If you are high on final it is important to slip it down to a practical altitude rather than trying to bleed off the speed up high.

If you are very fast as on an expedited approach (keep your speed up a Falcon is following you on the approach) and you are approaching the runway far too fast but you managed to get rid of the altitude before the runway you can slip the plane in level flight sidways down the runway until you feel the excess speed has been disipated then straigten it out and land normally.

Bob Axsom

Bob just explained THE way to land an RV if I ever heard one! All one gracefull motion from the initial slowdown all the way around until tire squeak (or bark)...they can't always be done that way at every airport, but Bob's technique is my preference if available. You come barreling into the pattern at full bore and not have to slow down until midfield and still easily hit the numbers this way. Now for the usual disclaimer - This assumes the pattern is not full of students flying DC9 patterns at 80 kts.... If you're outside the middle marker on base then it's a large pattern for an RV!

Obviously David D must be watching the traffic out our small grass strip as well. Because of possible "wildlife FOD" on the runway, the accepted practice is to clear the runway first. Then, during David's "zoom up", the throttle is yanked to idle, flaps are going down, turning/slip is intiated all the way around and in the end you've manged to both lose speed, make sure the runway is clear of fowl/deer/coyotes/badgers/anything else that could cause an incident and land all in one nice and gracefull maneuver. Naturally these are not approved maneuvers and shouldn't be replicated nor repeated!

My 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

 

[N941WR]

Thinking that you are going to plan ahead and enter the pattern at a reasonable speed, say 135 MPH or less, the landing should be easy enough.

I slow it on downwind and abeam the numbers I get the speed down to 90 MPH (top of the white arc), deploy all the flaps and trim for 65 mph solo, 70 mph with two, and fly the entire pattern at one of those two speeds.

Full deflection slips are safe at 70 MPH but I wouldn't try one slower than that.

Any faster than that and the -9 will float and float and float...

One thing I have noticed is how far the -9 will roll down the runway when doing a wheel landing. When three pointing, the thing will slow stop in short order. Those of you who have -9A's don't have this option but for the few of us with -9's, this is a consideration.

 

[carguy614]

9A Landings

After 25 hours of phase 1 time I am finally getting the hang of properly executing a 9A landing. I have enjoyed the thread, and plan to try some of the suggestions with the possibility of including them in my bag of tricks.
Took my transition training with Pierre Smith (super guy, and great instructor) in his real nice 6A. First, I must warn that the 9A is a very different aircraft to fly than the 6A. But the training in the 6 prepared me well for the speed management and "feel" that I needed to start learning the 9. I will share below some of the technique I have learned so far.
First, make sure you know what your stall speeds REALLY ARE!!! Mine are at higher indicated than spec. Practice power off stalls with varying amounts of flaps, and don't expect much pre stall warning. Understand that the operating envelope during approach is narrower than you may be used to, so pay attention. I started fast and worked my way down in approach speeds to get the feel of the airplane and how it acts and flares at different speeds. This is all good practice, and taught me a lot about my airplanes flying characteristics. I can tell you,at 80 MPH it takes all 4000 feet of my runway for a no brakes rollout with the nosewheel off the tarmac. It's kinda fun though.
My technique has evolved into much like some have described here. I 45 into the pattern at around 140 mph and pull power to 1000, nosing up the plane into a shallow climb. Once established, I reduce power gently to bleed off the speed, and hold the nose up until I get to 90. Half flaps and lower the nose, trim to 85 for the base. You will find that half flaps really do very little to arrest your speed on these slick airplanes. (That's not what they are for anyway, as mentioned by a previous poster.) The base will bleed more speed, so I trim for 75 MPH. Gentile 20 degree bank to final, add full flaps, and that will lower the nose with little effect on speed. Power back a touch, and trim for 70 and carry that over the numbers. Round out with full flaps seems to put me right where I need to be for a "tiny squeeker" almost every time. With full gross ballast I have added 5 MPH to smooth the landing touchdown, and eliminate the bump.
This all sounds like a a lot of work, but it has become very natural, and I have been pleased with my landings, although I will admit it certainly is not short field technique. I raise my flaps on rollout to keep the nosewheel up, and just use a little brake at the end. Folks on the ground comment that it's a real pretty landing to watch, for what it's worth.
Just a note about slips. We could all go on and on about that, as the 9A will slip just fine. I believe that to be a good option to use if you choose to incorporate it into your landing. My advice is to practice some cross control stalls at altitude before you start slipping your plane, and pay close attention to your indicated airspeed. Mine differs with slips left and right by about 5 MPH, as I have 2 pitot tubes installed. Right wing is tied to my Dynon, and left is hooked up to my redundant steam gauge. This gives me some real numbers to consider in terms if indicated speed. Nail your numbers down.
You will find that the cross control break is violent indeed, and may scare the beejeebers out of you. I was able to arrest and recover fairly well when I was expecting it, But could easily visualize an inverted ship if I was not. I would have to say if the 9 has any bad habits, recovery from a CC stall would be it. I think it is safe to say that most 9 pilots are like me, non acro, easy does it types. Recovery from violent maneuvers may not be our strongest skills. Just be sure you understand what happens if you get too slow in a full slip close to the ground before you start doing them.
It is to note that I have still a lot to learn about this wonderful little plane. It's easy to fly, docile and loads of fun. But it is indeed challenging to perfect the speed management and approach. But that's what aviation is all about. Practice and improvement of our skills!
Hope this helps, and thanks to all contributing to this very informative thread!!

Regards...Chris

 

[Bob Axsom]

I neever ever fly slow in a slip

In the slip I am looking to lose altitude quickly or slow the airplane by presenting a lot of drag and shorter wingspan (less lift) to the direction of flight. It is a speed and/or altitude control method and not something you want to do near stall speeds. I always have a comfortable margin of speed above the stall when I slip the RV-6A. With 3 ft of difference in in the wingspan of two configurations of my specific airplane (N710BJ) I notice no difference in the slip function. It is not a hard over control everytime function it is infinitely variable in the range from 0 to full control stops and it is not something to play around with near a stall. Slips come very naturally to me and they always have so it was a surprise when I read the previous writeup I realized that done improperly (timidly?) you could get into trouble.

Bob Axsom

 

[strahler13]

Slips

I slip only to lose altitude, although I fly a -6 with a CS prop so decelleration is usually not a problem. Does Vans have any limits on slips relative to flap deployment?

I would never slip to lose speed if already slow.

Mark

 

[carguy614]

9A slips

Just to clarify... Not to say that the slip is a bad maneuver in any way. We all need to use it, and practice it. It can be a lifesaver in an emergency, as we all know. My point was to make sure your new aircraft was registering speeds properly in the slip. It is clear that my plane is inaccurate indicating airspeed in a slip, and it is difficult to judge when the plane will really stall in that configuration without testing it. All part of phase 1, that's all.

Hope that clears me....Chris