THANKS, RICK!!!

I knew that there was an article by Van that addressed his thoughts on high speed taxi testing, but I could not find it!!

BTW...Anyone read the WOMAB section of the July Sport Aviation?? Pull it out and read the lead article about the Murphy Super Rebel. Actually, just go to the second to last paragraph. You guessed it!.....High speed taxi test that ended up in an unintentional first flight! But, I guess it was not an issue as he was prepared for flight, just in case a flight, which is of course unpredictable, should unexpectedly and without warning occur!
 
...Depends on the context, don't you think?
I'm a systems engineer by profession, with lots of flight test and aircraft maintenance experience. Perhaps this experience has led me to more definitive view of “flight test” than this forum is used to. Please keep that in mind.

BTW, "You are wrong" is a very a strong statement that requires some support for the reader. Let’s hear it.

funny thing is i wonder how much experience you have in aircraft maintenance when claims of "hoping this is not van approved" for a standard part attach crop up http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=58000
 
Could'nt resist jumping in here

First off, even in deference to your extensive professional background Ken (and my respect for you as a fellow Navy helo driver), I would say that there is in fact a hugh difference between testing and training. A test pilot, conducting a real test, in an aircraft requiring testing, is 100% testing, is he not?? The training was done, complete, checked off, signed - a long time before that test flight (isn't that why we have SIMs and training programs and instructors and two place versions of single place aircraft??).

Secondly, I don't see very many folks out there with flying RV's that routinely go to gather a whole bunch of useful info (or training) in that scary flight/taxi regime that is high speed taxiing. I have never seen a flight sylabus that says "Lesson Six - Go high speed taxi to learn about this or that". Just not a good idea and of dubious pratical value.

If you define high speed taxi as 20 - 25 mph with very controlled speed and conditions and careful throttle control as hi speed taxi - OK maybe (I did it prior to first Take off) and you will learn some things with reasonably low risk. If you define it as 5 knots below stall, I say really bad idea - and god bless the low time RV pilot who can maintain and control that taxi speed difference!!
 
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Just to chime in as well (even though I still have about two years to go on my RV).

In the sixth issue from the year 2008 of the "The RVator" newsletter, there is an excellent article about the dangers of high-speed taxi tests in RVs called Fast Taxi Tests and it sure has dissuaded me from ever trying a high speed taxi test in an RV until both my plane and I are actually ready for flying.
 
funny thing is i wonder how much experience you have in aircraft maintenance when claims of "hoping this is not van approved" for a standard part attach crop up http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=58000


You do? Really? So your definition of an "experienced" mechanic begins and ends with total familiarity of the RV-8? Wow! That?s quite a standard.

...I guess I'll have to somehow live with the knowledge that I have let you down. :D

BTW, My resume does not add any ?weight? to the discussion ? it was simply offered as an explanation for my ?myopic? view. With that said, If anybody wants to debate based on the merit of the argument, great, we all win. But as most of us learned in grade school, if anyone resorts to personal attack?
 
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Keep it polite please

Guys, a lot of good info has been presented here, on both points of view.

Dont let this become "personal", please.
 
To Taxi or not to Taxi

I don't imagine any amount discussion pro or con regarding any particular test will disuade a determined pilot. If you are determined to do a taxi test lo, med or high speed I would suggest a basic testing approach to minimize (not eliminate...minimize) your risk level. That is to perform the taxi test with the exact same build up procedure that you'll use on first flight. In other words make this your first flight but if you possess the skill to keep the aircraft on the ground good for you if not you will defacto skip the taxi test and do first flight. This isn't my idea rather the flight test community uses this technique where ever feasible.
Every single RV owner does a high speed taxi test its just that it is integrated into another flight segment: takeoff or landing.
 
Gary - Nah I disagree. Training is ALWAYS going on during test. We observe a control response and then make evaluations as to the compensation needed to correct or enhance the response to achieve the desired result. For example...in an Apache I would evaluate the the short period mode by introducing pitch doublets and notice that it is slightly overdamped. When I apply this data to a pitch pointing task for say a rocket attack I compensate for the slightly over damped response by adding just a smidge more input than I would normally think necessary. I've just trained myself to be better at pitch pointing than I was before the flight. With each follow-on test I become better at compensating to the point my evaluation may even suffer. For this reason it is always good to share the project with several pilots to prevent too much training from masking the deficiency. The training you are referring to is the type found in a course of instruction. I'm talking about the training going on when we learn something new, sometimes unexpectedly, and adjust our behavior because of it. Plus I never had any simulators for the tests I conducted at PAX. When I flew the expanded gross weight test project for the 60R by strapping on weights to increase GW to nearly 24,000lbs and then hovering at 500FT AGL and introducing a 1" down collective step input I can promise you a whole lot of training was going on in trying to figure out how to get out of the unpredicted Vortex Ring State with minimal control response! Then a whole lot more training commenced when the young engineer in the telemetry room said,"hey that was very interesting, can we see that again?" So yes, all kinds of training occurs during test - some physical, some verbal :)

If you read my post closely...I clearly define my limits of what I feel is a good practice for faster-than-normal taxi. I did it on my first homebuilt, did it on the six other first flights I've performed for others in their homebuilts and everyone of them was valuable to me and to them. In two cases we aborted the rest of the tests to fix a shimmy problem (nose gear).

formation aerobatics are dangerous too if the pilots can't handle flying formation. Flying an ILS to mins on a dark stormy night is pretty dangerous if the pilot doesn't have an instrument rating or if he/she isn't current. The point is...all of those events are perfectly manageable provided the pilot is skilled, disciplined and prepared. Fast Taxi is no exception. My post in no way is suggesting that everyone should just go out and do it. I'm saying if you do go out and do it, do it right (read my post) and more importantly I'm saying I AM skilled, disciplined and prepared enough to do it and will very soon (I hope) and could care less if anyone disagrees with this assertion. For those who fear risk, I say stay home and knit a sweater...wait those needles can hurt! :)

Let me restate it - if you go max throttle with an expectation to only fast taxi you are going flying or worse. So don't be an idiot, advance slightly, stabilize, advance again if needed, stabilize. If the nay sayers would just stop talking to themselves for 5 seconds and try it to 25mph they'll feel stupid for the suggestion it shouldn't be done. BTW The only camp I'm in on this issue is my camp cause I know I can do it right.

Now...what squadron are you in?

Spank
 
I can tell you from first hand experience,,,1400 rpms is enough to get a RV9 flying,,,I never advanced the throttle past that and it was airborne in a very short distance. I was pretty sure it would not fly at 1400 rpms,,,I was pretty wrong too.
 
Don't feel like you need to

This thread has about run its course. I just have three things to say:

1. When my plane is finally finished, I won't be doing a high speed taxi test.
2. I don't begrudge anyone their right to do one, if they feel they can do so safely and are fully prepared.
3. I wouldn't want anyone to think that this is something they need to do, or that this is something that is part of normal protocol because it's not. If you have something specific to accomplish, fine. Do it if you are fully prepared. But, don't do it if you think it makes you some sort of test pilot, or if you think that it's somehow something you are supposed to do.

There are lots of thoughtful statements on both sides of this issue. The people that have advocated this testing are probably not the ones to worry about. The ones I worry about are like myself. I want to fly my finished plane, but I don't have an engineering or military or test pilot background, so I'm just going to do what I feel like I need to do, and I'm not going to mess around trying to do something I don't really know how to do. I hope that the average guy who has no experience beyond simple proficiency as a pilot doesn't feel compelled to do something beyond his abilities.
 
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I hope that the average guy who has no experience beyond simple proficiency as a pilot doesn't feel compelled to do something beyond his abilities.

Well said Mike.

I've read the entire thread. Good civil discussion from both sides of the issue. Each builder must make up their own mind as to weather the info gained is worth the risk.
 
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Mike Gray, you summed it up perfectly - my fear with this topic is that folks who shouldn't be doing this kind of thing might think they they should. I always worry about the folks who DON'T post (some because they are afraid of getting beat up, which is what this forum is supposed to be set up to prevent), but go away with a false feeling of what they should be doing.

Great summation Mike!
 
Mike Gray, you summed it up perfectly - my fear with this topic is that folks who shouldn't be doing this kind of thing might think they they should. I always worry about the folks who DON'T post (some because they are afraid of getting beat up, which is what this forum is supposed to be set up to prevent), but go away with a false feeling of what they should be doing.

Great summation Mike!

I could not agree more.

There have been enough incidents (including loss of life - there was one taking a pilot and with his young daughter in the back seat, I believe she survived) to put the kibosh on high speed taxi testing for most guys.
 
Ken

I would love to have the opportunity to sit down with you and discuss the semantics of testing, training and learning, because I think that is where we differ - in the semantics of those definitions. I don't disagree that you learn alot while testing, but I would'nt call that learning process "training". Again semantics. I fully agree with everything in your post. It's abour risk and reward, and for the general low time RV guys, I suspect the risk of actual high speed taxiing is high, and the reward relatively low.

Actually a more interesting discussion would be on deeper questions. Like - do the wings on an F-8 go up, or does the fueselage go down??

I am an old bubba that flew H-3's (HC-1, HS-75) and H-2's (HSL-94). I did get about 10 minutes in an H-60 once courtesy of the Sikorsky test/demo pilot. Also a stop in P-cola (T-34C). Now there is a combination - just when you think you're training, the student starts testing, and then all of a sudden you are really learning!!

Hopefully we can meet sometime at an east coast fly-in. How's the RV going??

Fair winds and following seas... and Keep the big blades turning.
 
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