[Captain Avgas]

When I apply takeoff power to my -9A the stick is full back. When in 50 ft the nose leaves the ground and I ease pressure to just keep it off the ground. The plane does the rest by itself.
Kent

Kent, It's an interesting point. When I did my transition training with Mike Seagar (RV6A) he recommended elevator neutral at application of power for take-off and then gradual back stick to get the nose off the ground as soon as elevator authority became available.

I always presumed he taught this because it is easier (more controllable) to INCREASE elevator to get the nose just off the runway in the take-off roll than it is to DECREASE elevator to achieve the same thing.

I presumed he had seen many students with full back stick suddenly find the nose gear way too high...and then over compensate in the opposite direction causing the nose gear to bounce.

At any rate I just follow his advice and apply back stick gradually just after the start of roll and I can feel elevator authority emerging. That way I don't have the nose rearing off the runway suddenly and I feel in better control.

Just another perspective.

 

[L.Adamson]

Kent, It's an interesting point. When I did my transition training with Mike Seagar (RV6A) he recommended elevator neutral at application of power for take-off and then gradual back stick to get the nose off the ground as soon as elevator authority became available.

I always presumed he taught this because it is easier (more controllable) to INCREASE elevator to get the nose just off the runway in the take-off roll than it is to DECREASE elevator to achieve the same thing.

I presumed he had seen many students with full back stick suddenly find the nose gear way too high...and then over compensate in the opposite direction causing the nose gear to bounce.

At any rate I just follow his advice and apply back stick gradually just after the start of roll and I can feel elevator authority emerging. That way I don't have the nose rearing off the runway suddenly and I feel in better control.

Just another perspective.

I use the same technique as Kent, for my RV6A. I could see it being a problem with students.... though.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Kent, It's an interesting point. When I did my transition training with Mike Seagar (RV6A) he recommended elevator neutral at application of power for take-off and then gradual back stick to get the nose off the ground as soon as elevator authority became available.

I always presumed he taught this because it is easier (more controllable) to INCREASE elevator to get the nose just off the runway in the take-off roll than it is to DECREASE elevator to achieve the same thing.

I presumed he had seen many students with full back stick suddenly find the nose gear way too high...and then over compensate in the opposite direction causing the nose gear to bounce.

At any rate I just follow his advice and apply back stick gradually just after the start of roll and I can feel elevator authority emerging. That way I don't have the nose rearing off the runway suddenly and I feel in better control.

Just another perspective.

I do it the same way Kent does.
The earliest elevator authority that you will have is when full up elevator is able to raise the nose.
It does require a bit different technique but I don't think it is any more difficult, just different. With a little practice it is very easy to feel the nose wheel starting to get light.
I use the same tech. in the RV-12 and it is a bit different...the stabilator is quite powerful so the nose wheel begins to lift about the time you get to full throttle (as long as you don't ram it in). Even then it is not at all difficult, just requires some practice.

 

[Camillo]

I read the entire thread and at last I had an idea.
It could be possible that the problem is not not keeping the nose wheel high as long as possible. In fact, an airplane is balanced, unless you don't push on the stick or apply brakes.
Maybe the problem is mainly braking when speed is still high, thus adding weight on the front wheel.

 

[Danny7]

you can apply brakes pretty early, and still counteract nose wheel weight with back pressure

 

[kentb]

True.

you can apply brakes pretty early, and still counteract nose wheel weight with back pressure

When I want to shorten my ground roll, I apply brakes after touching down and then easy off just before the nose wheel needs to touch down. After the plane has slowed a bit more I might apply the brakes again. If the ground was rough, I would avoid using brakes.

Kent

 

[flyboy1963]

landing, take-off & braking

......these are all good operational points.
My view is that we are AGAIN talking about having to perform unusual procedures, with test-pilot skill, to compensate for a nosegear situation that is waiting to bite us.
I fly a -9a because I thought it was a docile, forgiving aircraft that would complement my 'average' flying skill and knowledge.
As it is now, my cheeks pucker everytime I cross an uneven asphalt taxiway intersection seam.
It sounds more like everyone needs a type rating to avoid becoming a statistic.

 

[MrNomad]

Understandable.... but....

As it is now, my cheeks pucker everytime I cross an uneven asphalt taxiway intersection seam. It sounds more like everyone needs a type rating to avoid becoming a statistic.

Having bent a 9A nose gear almost 180 flight hours ago, I share your concern but the airplane is so extraordinary in so many other ways, I decided to redouble my efforts and learned to compensate for less-than-ideal front gear. I also installed a spacer to permit the front wheel to spin freely, tire pressure is ALWAYS at 40lbs, breakout is ALWAYS set properly, and I will NEVER fly w/o a reinforced front wheel pant.

Bottom line? We simply cannot confuse our "A"'s with a Cessna 150 which you can do almost anything to and not break it. But then again, I don't want to fly a Cessna 150. Likewise, I won't drive my 57 Nomad off road either.

Therefore, I suggest that folks read Kent's posts and other posts that define the proper handling of the front gear. Until more robust gear is available, I live within its limitations, I accept the fact that it's not the ideal choice for rough terrain, but I enjoy all of the other excellent aspects of these extraordinary airplanes.

I'm OK with that.

However, my 6A build partner and I (along with several other "A" owners) are working on a test jig we will build to test the front gear. As soon as our jig is completed, we will post the results.

 

[FresnoR]

However, my 6A build partner and I (along with several other "A" owners) are working on a test jig we will build to test the front gear. As soon as our jig is completed, we will post the results.

That is great to hear, have you thought about putting up a blog or something to track this project? You might find that you can get donors (parts and monetarily) from a variety of concerned VAF members to help the cause.

 

[jtrusso]

NASA Technical Papers

However, my 6A build partner and I (along with several other "A" owners) are working on a test jig we will build to test the front gear. As soon as our jig is completed, we will post the results.

Mr. Nomad, have you researched any of the studies done by NACA and later NASA on landing gear design? There are a lot of papers dealing with castering nose and tailwheels, looking at differnt mounting configurations, tire pressures, shimmy, caster angles, etc. There is a lot of data in here with actual emperical data. I higlhly recommned taking a look at what they've done in the past as it may help guide your testing.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp


I used "shimmy" and "caster" as keyword searchers.

Here is a good one which discusses the effect of caster angle and nose wheel weight on shimmy:
NACA Technical Note No. 760, "A Full-Scale Investigation of the Effect of Several Factors on the Shimmy of Castering Wheels" by Walter B Howard Jr.

 

[dhall_polo]

Resonant Frequency Analysis?

Has there been any resonant frequency analysis on the nose gear leg? Maybe the bumpiness of a typical grass runway at moderate speeds is contributing to a resonance induced failure.

The one inescapable truth of this thread is that there is a problem. When pilots are bragging about the great technique they use to avoid flipping over, that's a sign. This is a great thread. Hopefully Van's is reading this and recognizing that they can't avoid addressing an obvious design failure in their best selling products.