Just wondering

Did I mention that the Avionics shop that did my Pitot/Static check swapped my AOA and Pitot. And yes on my first flight I had NO airspeed indication above 25kts.

My first landing was the best landing I have ever done!

Why does this sort of thing not get checked before first flight. Its an easy thing to do. Not to beat you up, but this wasn't your avionics shops fault. This should have been caught before the airplane rolled on that first takeoff.
 
Questions for the test pilots

For the guys who have done first flights for others, I'm curious.

How much inspection / time do you feel you need to be really comfortable with an airplane that you've never seen before. Not some airplane model you've never seen, but a new RV (presuming that you're already an RV driver). After all, my '8 will have different systems than your's.

I know that I spend a ton of time looking through all the controls, engine installation, etc..., plus get friends to go through it. And its still hard not to miss something. (Hopefully something small !)

I'm just curious the approach that you guys take with someone's new airplane. Might be instructive for the rest of us.
 
Hi David....

...having done this recently, flying a new -7A. I'll say this. The deal was made months ago that he wanted me to be the test pilot, so I made a point of visiting him often, around every month or so and checked the airplane over thoroughly while it was open...all bellcranks, pushrods, wiring, fuel lines and fire-sleeve...just a thorough look over, often. I'd known him for two years or so and kept up with the build and his workmanship was as good as any I've ever seen.

I'd never flown behind a GRT, so he brought me up to speed on its basic operation for the short 15 minute first flight. I also wanted to know how to turn off the fuel with the Andair fuel selector that I hadn't used before, since it was different from my Van's selector and has a knob that you have to lift...very important...just in case.

I also had an A@P/RV builder blow gently into the pitot, since the owner didn't know if the airspeed would work, but it quickly showed 80-100 MPH. BTW, an easier way is with a squeeze bulb and a length of clear plastic tubing where you can watch the airspeed as you squeeze the bulb with the tubing connected to the pitot.

Vic Syracuse inspected it on my recommendation and he was as impressed as I was although there were a few details he wanted corrected, so it was all ready when the day came. The airplane turned out to be very fast and the chase plane (RV-7) had a hard time keeping up during the gentle circling of the airport on my outside wing, since all the fairings and wheelpants were installed and I needed to run the new IO-360 hard, to help seat rings. He had briefed me on Lycomings suggestions and I complied. All that needed changing was a slight aileron squeeze of the light wing to correct a pretty good right roll if you let go of the stick

He had also done fuel flow tests that I'd recommended, by loosening up the fuel line at the engine and with the electric pump tried both tanks and calculated the fuel flow. It was waaay sufficient and both tanks flowed equally.

I'd have to have the airplane opened up where I could satisfy myself before I'd fly an unknown airplane for anyone else as well. Pretty much like the DAR would want it opened up for the airworthiness inspection,

Best,
 
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slightly off topic

With all this talk about the risks of the first flight I can honestly tell you I was more terrified today having my completed fuselage transported to the local airport (KCRG) and into my hangar... now this is something I would have gladly had someone else supervise as I was a pain-in-the-neck to the driver and wouldn't let him get over 45 mph :)
2d1mtl4.jpg
 
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Beautiful -8!

Ken K
Is that a wood prop on your -8? I've got a Sterba on my -7A and love it. And, not to appear to be highjacking the thread, I did my own first flight. Had over 800 hours at the time but minimal RV time. Probably not the smartest thing I've done, but no problems and more importantly, no regrets!
 
So the message I would like to stay in the archives of these forums is that the choice of the first flight pilot IS a CHOICE - not a forgone conclusion.

Well put. Lots of great points and observations in this thread. Also a good bit of using statistics to back up points of view but a recent NYT article reminded me of the conclusions that can be drawn from anecdotal observations and incomplete statistics.

If you go to a mall in Miami and see many young Cuban Americans and many old WASPs does it follow that those of Cuban descent grow up to be old WASPs?

Are there any statistics that show first flights flown by a non owner/builder result in less accidents/deaths? Or just statistics that show increased rates on 1st flight no matter who the pilot?

What are the specific and minimum qualifications of the nonowner/builder test pilot that might mitigate the chance of an accident/injury. Is it hours flown, age, # of first flights, technical knowledge?

How does one become qualified to say "I can better test fly your airplane than you the builder?"

What are the specific attributes of an owner/builder that should disqualify him/her from making the first flight?

From this thread can we derive a checklist that one could use as a guide to determine (as the thread is titled) Are You Ready For First Flight?

How did Wilbur and Orville address this issue?
 
Why does this sort of thing not get checked before first flight. Its an easy thing to do. Not to beat you up, but this wasn't your avionics shops fault. This should have been caught before the airplane rolled on that first takeoff.

I did check. I did the standard check, passed a air blast in front of the Pitot. AS indicator operated apparently normal. Took it to have the Pitot/Static check done to help me rest assured that it was perfect and accurate. It passed and I was told it was very accurate. Saw indication when I did my high speed taxi test.

Started my take off roll, which in an RV -9 takes about 4 seconds MAX, glanced at my AS saw 25 kts, thought to myself "airspeed alive" was airborne, AS flickered and went to ZERO.

Apparently when the AOA and AS lines are crossed AOA can give you an AS Indication. Don't ask me how as I have no idea.

Still, it took such a short time to be airborne I wasn't going to abort a takeoff, which would be worse potentially. Besides and A/S indicator is just that, an INDICATOR. Could be accurate, could be not. Until you flight test you have no idea. I had other A/S indicator's in the cockpit. Two GPS groundspeed indicators plus headwind component, my eyes, my ears and my butt.

The FAA got wind of what happened in my situation and I got a visit from them. I told the inspector exactly what happened and he agreed I did all that I could do. He was PO'd at the AV shop for either not discovering the problem or creating the problem. In either case his comment was that "you spend $350 for a Pitot check, you would think your pitot would work". Of course, I have an A&P and Avionics license, so maybe I should have rechecked their work. I can't say I know anyone that would. Shoot a bumble be or a bird can takeout a pitot probe. Your never assured you'll have it.

To be honest. Other than the FAR requirement I have no problem flying without an A/S indicator in VFR. I do have a lot of flight time in all types of aircraft. Single, Multi, complex. Once I realized that the A/S was TU, I thought "hmmm, now I wonder what caused that, I'll have to figure that out". Not for one second did it cause me any grief. All of my flight students get training from me doing touch and goes without airspeed indication. I probably have a hundred hours in that configuration.

Now, I do NOT recommend that people do their first flight. I do NOT believe in the mantra, "She's my plane, I'll be the first to fly it." As if your plane actually knew who was flying it. In my situation I had a test pilot lined up. However, my insurance would not cover him. Not for the plane and not for his life. I had NO concern that I would crash my plane. I had transition training days prior and I fly regularly. The emotional attachment is what causes some trouble. My flight instructor gave me his blessing.

I had an engine failure on takeoff when the o-320 in my Cherokee swallowed an exhaust valve on takeoff at 300 ft above the deck. You don't realize how you will deal with a real emergency until the real thought passes through your mind "this is the day I die". A good pilot relies on skill and training and most importantly a realist and cautious approach to flight. Calculating the risks and making necessary precautions. Not everyone has the same level of experience and therefore not the same required decisions.

Are there going to be problems on a first flight? Usually there are. I worked the flight line at Boeing and years at United and I can say the I have never seen a plane yet come out of the factory or for heavy maint. and not have issues.

I share my experiences not because I am an idiot and want people think I am a fool, but so that others can get some sort of benefit. Maybe someone will recheck their A/S. If they have an AOA, they need to know that it may pass a blow by check. And when you or someone else does maintenance you need to check their work and make sure it's safe for flight.

We had a 737 come out of maint. and the pilot took off and a roll of tape some how got stuck in the rudder pedals and he struggled with it. At least one flashlight has prevented a landing gear from coming down.

Murphy is alive and out to get us. for those that don't believe it, just take a look at the reports.
 
The emotional attachment is what causes some trouble.

Like a friend said yesterday.......

His insurance covered any emotional attachment, and he'd save himself before the plane. I felt the same way! I think this emotional attachment angle is too over-rated. Someone needs to prove me wrong...

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Like a friend said yesterday.......

His insurance covered any emotional attachment, and he'd save himself before the plane. I felt the same way! I think this emotional attachment angle is too over-rated. Someone needs to prove me wrong...

L.Adamson --- RV6A

Yep, I do agree. You may find a great test pilot, but has he/she ever had to deal with the "blank hitting the fan". A friend of mine, while doing his primary training with an instructor, ran out of fuel over Seattle. His instructor panicked, hyperventilated and at one point starting to freak out. My friend actually had to land the plane as the instructor was unable.

I should add that I am a driving instructor by day, flight instructor by night. You can't imagine how frequently my life is in danger. I am probable the best test pilot! Move over Chuck Yeager!
 
Yep, I do agree. You may find a great test pilot, but has he/she ever had to deal with the "blank hitting the fan". A friend of mine, while doing his primary training with an instructor, ran out of fuel over Seattle. His instructor panicked, hyperventilated and at one point starting to freak out. My friend actually had to land the plane as the instructor was unable.

I should add that I am a driving instructor by day, flight instructor by night. You can't imagine how frequently my life is in danger. I am probable the best test pilot! Move over Chuck Yeager!

I've noticed over the years, since I'm getting old, that some people think flight instuctors are masters of it all. But then I know better. Two different flight instructors that I had in the past, are both airline pilots these days. One was an expert on IFR, and taught instrument ground school. The other was very proficient in aerobatics and taught in his Pitt's S2B. Yet my flight instructor who taught IFR had little training in aerobatics. I suppose a few old time instructors are "masters of it all", but you won't find too many of them..

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
Correct, flight instructors are not "masters of it all". Some are very good at alot of things, some shouldn't be instructing at all. Just because someone seems to have alot of experience, don't assume that they are very good or better (safer) than you - unless you personally know otherwise. I have given instruction to some who appeared to be vastly more experienced than I am only to have them try to kill me.

As for first flights, right now I intended to do my own when I finish my -12. I have no doubt that I can safely fly one even though my experience in one is about zero. Having said that, I fully intend to get a thorough check out and sign off in one before I do my first flight. It never hurts to have someone else evaluate your abilities. I might be surprised at what they find. I would feel a little foolish if I didn't do that then bent it or worse.
 
well stuff happens.

I didn't mean to suggest that you should never make a mistake. Lord knows I've made plenty. I was however; trying to suggest that for a first flight, where you know a lot of stuff "could" be wrong, that the simple things need to be checked for sure, right before flight.

Personally, I'm paranoid about letting others work on the airplane without me hovering over them. I just tell them I want to learn how to do what they're doing.:D I do want to learn what they're doing. I also want to protect my airplane.:eek:
 
How Orville and Wilbur addressed the issue..

From this thread can we derive a checklist that one could use as a guide to determine (as the thread is titled) Are You Ready For First Flight?

How did Wilbur and Orville address this issue?

...is really moot, Milt.

Orville may have demonstrated superior coordination skills because he could ride a bicyle while sitting on it backwards and Wilbur couldn't...you know the routine.

Given your question.."can we derive a checklist.....?" Yes.

If I have 16,000 hours and experience in 25 different types of airplanes and 500 hours in an RV-6A, -7, -7A, -9A, -8, -4 and -10, and two forced landings..one when my 1340 Pratt trashed a cylinder skirt in the Air Tractor and another in a Supercub when the new tank selected had water in it, with both planes re-usable, am I not more qualified than a freshly minted Private pilot, or student pilot with his freshly signed off -7? This is an extreme, obviously.

If I have 250 hours TT and 10 in an RV and the new builder/buyer only has 5 hours transition training, who is more qualified? The new builder might have 150 hours in a T-6, a low altitude aerobatic waiver and 1000 TD hours.

It's a difficult question to answer and no answer always applies. I think that the general consensus is that the more qualified pilot should do the test flight but the builder may adamantly oppose that. So now what?

I now also think that this issue is fast becoming a case of beating a dead horse...:)

Best,
 
Masters of it all

I have been a flight Instructor (asmel) for over 40 years and I just don't believe for a minute that I am a master of it all.
I learn something new just about each flight I make with a "new" student.
I am not timid to admit "I don't know", but lets try this!!
There are bad instructors, good instructors, and people who should not be in an airplane at all.
Personally, If you are a current pilot, fly reguarly, why not do your first flight??
 
Personally, If you are a current pilot, fly reguarly, why not do your first flight??

Of the four RV builders & one F1 builder I talked to yesterday at the airport.....................that's what they all said. All did they're own first test flight. Two of these RV's have over 1200 hrs.

Not one of them went along with the test pilot scenario suggested in this thread.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Personally, If you are a current pilot, fly reguarly, why not do your first flight??

That is a VERY good quesiton Larry, and has been answered numerous times by many qualified EAA Flight Advisors right here in this thread. Give all the posts a read, and you'll get a lot of good ideas. And then, if you are coming up on a first flight, contact an FA to talk about it - it's free, so why wpouldn't you? There is no single checklist that works for everyone - it is based on an individual's experience (and experiences).

And becasue some folsk don't seem to understand, let me state it once agian very clearly - MANY pilots are qualified to do there own first flights. Many are not. If you honestly believe that any pilot can go out and do any first flght, you are probably not paying attention.

Paul
 
Not what I said

[ If you honestly believe that any pilot can go out and do any first flght, you are probably not paying attention.

Paul[/QUOTE]
Who knows their aircraft better than the pilot who builds it?? What I meant is: If you are current in a taildragger, and you are building a taildragger, whats the problem with doing the first flight....In the past I always taxied, high speed, down the the run way, sometimes lifting off shortly, to get the feel...It worked for me...Should work for others.
Same applys with a training wheel A/c.
This only applys to pilots that are current in type and fly reguarly.
 
You're right Larry Stokes - that statement was not really addressing your comment. My thoughts for you were directly in response to your question - if you're current and fly regularly (and you have added "in type"), then why not do the first flight. And my answer is that there are a number of long posts in this thread answering that question directly. The answer, in the shortest possible terms, is that test flying is "specialty" flying, and requires a different skill set than other flying - just as mountain flying requires a skill set that is different than flying in the middle of the continent. Which DOES NOT mean that many people don't have that skill set!!! It merely means that you have to ask the question "what skills are particular to test flying, and do I have them.

The FA's on this thread are not trying to dictate to people, they are trying to get people ask questions. There is no harm in asking questions, especially of yourself. Some folks might be surprised that they learn something from those questions, and will either be better prepared to do their own first flight, or decide that it is not for them. For particulars, go back and read the posts that talk in detail about those skills, questions, and considerations.

Paul
 
is really moot, Milt.

I think not Pierre. The Wright brothers kept meticulous journals (where they now reside I know not). I have read excerpts from some of them and while they were mainly technical in nature they often expressed concerns and fears.

It would be truly interesting to know if they considered having someone with maybe hot air ballon experience or maybe a young athlete do their first flight.

They were after all the first people to face this decision.


I now also think that this issue is fast becoming a case of beating a dead horse...:)

Normally I would agree, but in this particular case, I think safety on first flight is quite an important topic.

I started reading this thread with a clear opinion on this issue, but have learned a good deal from the multitude of posts. Some seemingly echoeing what others have said, if you take Paul's advice and re read them you glean a lot of new, cogent, and interesting info, that while it may not change your mind it may cause you to do something different in preparation for first flight that will enhance safety.

There may yet be new and interesting perspectives or experiences in posts yet to come.:D
 
I don't know the details, but the early word is that a Zeinth on it's first flight spun in at Iowa Falls Iowa late last week... That is 50 miles from here... I won't speculate as to the cause.....

But is is one more example of a fatality on a first flight in a very simple airplane.....

Doug Rozendaal
 
AOPA's take on test flight

http://www.aopa.org/asf/epilot_acc/wpr09la202.html?WT.mc_id=100716epilot&WT.mc_sect=sap

Loss of elevator proves deadly on test flight
By David Kenny
Exercising great caution in the first test flights of a newly constructed aircraft is a must. Commercial manufacturers take extensive precautions to limit the risk to their aircraft and test pilots. Resources such as wind-tunnel testing, computer simulation, airframe parachutes, on-site fire and rescue teams, and top-quality protective gear aren?t typically available to individual homebuilders, so they are even more reliant on proceeding one step at a time, cross-checking everything, and taking nothing for granted.

On April 17, 2009, a Glasair Sportsman GS-2 crashed into a residential neighborhood in El Dorado Hills, Calif., killing the solo pilot. No one on the ground was injured. The airplane had received its initial (restricted) airworthiness certificate just three weeks before, and according to the pilot?s wife, the accident occurred during its sixth or seventh hour of flight testing. The pilot built the airplane at the Glasair factory in its ?Two Weeks to Taxi? program, completing construction on Feb. 20, and then partially disassembled it for shipment to his home field at Rancho Murieta, where it was reassembled for its airworthiness inspection.

The Sportsman took off a little after noon. Just under an hour into the flight, two other pilots on the frequency heard Mayday calls:

"MAYDAY MAYDAY, I'm going down into the brush.... I've lost elevator control."

"Mayday! Mayday! Mayday! (unintelligible call sign numbers) No elevator no elevator, I'm going down, I'm going down, no elevator, I'm going down, I'm going down in some trees!"

Witnesses on the ground saw the airplane descend into trees with the wings level and the engine running. It hit the ground about a hundred yards beyond the first tree strike and eventually came to rest against a stone retaining wall.

Much of the wreckage was consumed by fire, but investigators found that the rod on the forward end of the elevator torque tube had backed out of its bearing. The bearing remained attached to the bell crank, and the jam nut was still on the rod end, but the elevator surface was no longer connected to the control stick. Tension on the jam nuts normally secures the rod in place. The FAA?s Advisory Circular 90-89A: Amateur-Built and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook, which provides helpful information about all the components that make up a thorough and careful flight-testing regimen, recommends rechecking these (and all other flight-control fittings) after each of the first few test flights. Glasair?s inspection checklist calls for putting a stripe of ?witness paint? across the jam nut and bearing to make it easy to see whether the nut has slipped: If the nut moves, it?s clear at a glance that the paint marks no longer align. No such paint was found on the bearings or jam nuts at either end of the torque tube.

Even after elevator control was lost, the pilot might possibly have salvaged the situation, or at least made a forced landing on more favorable terrain. The investigators found that the electric trim motor ?functioned normally from stop to stop when power was applied.? Judicious use of trim, with perhaps some power adjustments, could have provided some control over the airplane?s pitch attitude. But the pilot was not only new to the Sportsman, he was fairly new to flying, with a little more than 160 hours in his logbook, and failure of a primary flight control is an emergency rarely addressed in training.

Any builder without test-pilot experience or extensive knowledge of the make and model might consider hiring a professional to do the initial testing. Failing that, the first line of defense is to make early test flights over the most open countryside around. Fewer obstructions improve the chances of walking away if something unexpected happens?which can almost be expected while the aircraft works through its shakedown phase.