The FlyEFI stuff is based on our SDS ECU and automotive type fuel hardware which is well flight proven now with over 70,000 flight hours in the last 16 years and the Super Sport Gold class win at Reno this year.

Robert Paisley has done all the hard work mounting injector bosses to induction tubes etc. and made it more of a bolt on.

We have a number of people running 10% ethanol in their aircraft with no issues. I think the water thing is all theory. Unless you had an awful lot of water get into the fuel somehow, it just stays in suspension with the ethanol. Even then, with EFI, the high return volumes keeps it all mixed up and it just goes through the engine anyway. This is the main reason we don't recommend gascolators.

You'd be running in open loop in an aircraft. Closed loop targets stoichiometric which results in peak EGTs which is not good.

I run EFI with an O2 sensor and mostly Mogas in my RV6. Here is some input.

Mogas:

Not really available at many airports west of the Rockies. East of the Rockies you are only going to be saving about $0.25/gal when purchased at the airport. However, if you are like most of us, 80% or so of your flying is going to be local in which case the best (cheapest) practice is to fill up a large container at the gas station and keep it in your hangar. The price difference for me will vary but right now I am saving $1.50/gal. Mine often sits in storage for up to 2 months without a detectabe loss of quality. I once kept some around for 2 years and put it in my car and did not notice any problems.

Using occasional 100LL with an O2 sensor is not a problem. I have 550 hrs on my O2 sensor and use 100LL whenever it is more convienient than Mogas. the O2 sensor still works fine.

Mogas has ethanol, so far I have not noticed incompatibility issues, though others have more experience/knowledge in that regard. Ethanol CAN attract water. It is a REAL concern. Just because it is rare, dosent make it OK. Fly in winter up to 15k and your gas will get very cold. It will stay cold after you land etc. Automotive style EFI will solve that problem. (more below)

Ethanol also increases volatility. That can be a non-issue or engine killing. Again, an automotive style EFI solves the problem completely.

EFI:

Has many advantages and some disadvantages (mainly dependance on electrical power unless you are using mechanical fuel injection).

It is important to note that there are 2 major types of fuel injection. The type Ross and I use - I am referring to as the automotive type (though many cars, especially newer ones, are using the other type). In this type there is fuel flowing under high pressure (30-100psi depeding on the system) and high flow (double the needs of the engine at full power - many times engine use while at idle - my system flows 50 gal/hr for example). A regulator at the end of the fuel rail sets the pressure (like a thumb over a hose) and returns excess fuel at low pressure back to the tank.

The other type is that commonly used in aircraft such as the IO-360. The pressue is set by the pump (usually just high enough for the needs of the engine) and there is usually a relief or purge valve at the end of the rail. There is no return to the tank.

Both system have the advantages over carbiration that include the ability to very finely, and easily, balance the flow to each cylinder; and indeference to gravity (that is what got you started on all this). Also, carb ice becomes much less possible. There is still a small temp drop across a throttle body, and given enough freezing rain anything can freeze over - but this only comes into play in know ice conditions. So switching to fuel injection does eliminate the possiblility of carb ice for most homebuilts.

The aircraft system has the further advantage of not being dependent on eletrical power (as most of them are actually Mechanical Fuel Fnjection). I guess the certification powers the be felt that lack of dependance on electrons was more important than the benifits of a return flow system. Those advantages include the virtuial elimination of issues with water contamination (unless it is a massive amount of water). In the return flow system, any gulp of water quickly runs past the injectors and back to the tank where it is properly mixed. With the one-way system the entire gulp of water must run through the injectors as if it were fuel. Purge valves work OK on preflight (if you have one) but do nothing for you if you get a gulp of water at rotation.

More importantly, the return flow system eliminates the possiblility of vapor lock. Take a winter blend mogas (more volatile) and run it at slow speed through a hot engine compartment at altitude (where the pressure is low) and have the fuel pump create a suction trying to get the fuel out of the tank, and you have a set-up for vapor lock. The low pressure on the warm fuel can cause it to create a vapor bubble. The one-way systems do not help with this issue. But with a return flow system the high pressue prevents the vapor, the high flow keeps the fuel cool also preventing the vapor, and if a small amount does form most of it is quickly run past the injectors an back into the tank. Note that it is important to keep the fuel pumps low, and as close to the tank as possible (or in them altogether) to prevent large amounts of vapor from appearing upstream of the pump (somethng that many installers of automotive fuel sustems fail to to - the pumps must not be in the engine compartment to attain this great advantage)

O2 sensor:

I agree with Ross on the closed loop issue.
It is possible to run closed loop in the aircraft but it is not worth while. While you can adjust the computer to run at whatever stoichiometric mix that the O2 sensor is capable of sensing (which could keep you at, say, appx. 100 ROP) the lack of frequent power changes in the aircraft and the desire for running different stoichiometry during different phases of flight make closed loop not worth the hassle, not to mention an additional failure point.

I find the O2 sensor most helpful for tuning the computer(s) and giving giving a quick look at where I am at on the mixture curve (it is much faster than EGT, but has less resolution). But I stlill use EGT for the final mixture adjustment in flight, after all that is what is important to me, keeping to turbo temps under control. You would use EGT to balance you cylinders not O2. It is nice to have, but given the choice between O2 and EGT I would take EGT.

All in all, EFI is a great addition, return flow type is better IMHO. Using mogas can save a ton of money at current prices. Etanol is not a problem IF you undertand and mitigate the issues. O2 sensors are nice and don't exclude the use of 100LL, but don't bring all that much to the table either.
 
It is important to note that there are 2 major types of fuel injection. The type Ross and I use...

What specifically is the one you are using, and what is the cost? Is there a web page that offers some additional information about it?


More importantly, the return flow system eliminates the possiblility of vapor lock. Take a winter blend mogas (more volatile) and run it at slow speed through a hot engine compartment at altitude (where the pressure is low) and have the fuel pump create a suction trying to get the fuel out of the tank, and you have a set-up for vapor lock. The low pressure on the warm fuel can cause it to create a vapor bubble.

Given a high wing aircraft like a Glastar, would the head pressure of the fuel from gravity flowing down from the wing tanks be adequate to prevent, or at least significantly reduce, the chances of vapor lock? What about with a gascolator/carb setup with typical flights being below 5000 feet?


Thanks,

-Dj
 
What specifically is the one you are using, and what is the cost? Is there a web page that offers some additional information about it?




Given a high wing aircraft like a Glastar, would the head pressure of the fuel from gravity flowing down from the wing tanks be adequate to prevent, or at least significantly reduce, the chances of vapor lock? What about with a gascolator/carb setup with typical flights being below 5000 feet?


Thanks,

-Dj

Well, like Ross, I have an auto-conversion so my Fuel system is a self-designed one-off though it is based around guidance from the maker of my EFI computer (Tracy Crook):

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/

He does make a version of his computer for certified type engines though you still have to do the intakes etc.. on your own. Here are the specifics on that lycoming version:

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/lycoming_ec2.htm

Having high wings does help a lot with the risk of vaporlock, though I wouldn't say that it eliminates the risk. You get what? - a few PSI of pressure from the height of the wings? Not as good as 40psi from an automotive EFI system.
 
I posted on page 4 of this thread. I'm running Tracy's system on an o320. Working through some minor bugs, but very happy with it so far. I'd like to run mogas, but I'm apprehensive as I have an h2ad that because of a higher compression ratio is not recommended for mogas. My egts and cht are all very close. As a matter of fact I can't even get a "lean rough" condition by turning the system max lean.... Rpms just start reducing. I'm guessing that is because the fuel separation is so equal, but I'm not sure. Let me know if you have any questions about the install.... I'm no expert, but I can tell you what I have done.
 
Given a high wing aircraft like a Glastar, would the head pressure of the fuel from gravity flowing down from the wing tanks be adequate to prevent, or at least significantly reduce, the chances of vapor lock? What about with a gascolator/carb setup with typical flights being below 5000 feet?


Thanks,

-Dj

With the high pressure pump inlet totally submerged and the pressure from the fuel column of the high mounted tanks, I'd say there is a very low chance of vapor lock. Much safer than a setup on a low winged plane with wing tanks and we don't really see any problems with them if plumbed correctly.
 
I've yet to see the alcohol in my beer to eat through the can. It's safe by my standard!!!

Now all you have to do is find out what they coat the inside of the can with so you can duplicate the process in your tanks. It isn't bare alumnium...;)
 
E10 with an IO-360

More importantly, the return flow system eliminates the possiblility of vapor lock. Take a winter blend mogas (more volatile) and run it at slow speed through a hot engine compartment at altitude (where the pressure is low) and have the fuel pump create a suction trying to get the fuel out of the tank, and you have a set-up for vapor lock. The low pressure on the warm fuel can cause it to create a vapor bubble.

Interesting observation.. I'm running E10 mixed with 100LL at about 1:3 (1gal 100ll to three gals E10) in an IO-360 (Silver Hawk Fuel Injection system).
On a practice ILS the other day, at full idle, I got a low fuel pressure warning, and even an engine stumble, until I turned on the Aux pump. That brought the fuel pressure back to normal.
So this issue would seem to support your statement. My Aux pump is located in the cockpit just down stream to the fuel selector valve, and is below the fuel level in the tanks.
Outside air temps were about 25*F... Definately winter blend E10....
Maybe it's time to put a fresh air source onto the engine fuel pump.....
 
With the high pressure pump inlet totally submerged and the pressure from the fuel column of the high mounted tanks, I'd say there is a very low chance of vapor lock. Much safer than a setup on a low winged plane with wing tanks and we don't really see any problems with them if plumbed correctly.

Thanks, Ross. So, what I'm getting out of all of this is that a high wing Glastar, 150hp O320, gascolator, Lyc mechanical fuel pump and carb should be okay for E10. I just need to verify the materials in the carb and Lycoming mechanical fuel pump are rated to handle the ethanol in E10 and I should be all set (in theory).

-Dj
 
Check the soft parts in the gascolator carefully; older ones have 'real' rubber that turns to screen blocking sludge after contact with even 5% mogas (personal experience). I read a thread somewhere on line a few months ago with posts from some Brazilians, talking about use of pure E in ag planes down there. The posts said that the diaphragm in the Lyc mech pump eventually dies, & they just replace them when they die.

Have you considered just running 2 Facet pumps & removing the mech pump (& gascolator)? there are several RV-x's flying that way because they are using the (___ sorry, I forget the series number) Lyc O-320 that normally mounts the fuel pump on the front & they didn't want to put a bump in the cowl for the pump. The Facet doesn't use that much power; it would be easy to add a small emergency battery for the fuel pumps with enough grunt to take you to empty tanks if that would raise your comfort level.

Also, someone mentioned concern for running E-gas in higher compression engines. I'm not currently running ethanol in my -4 because I haven't taken the time to check the gascolator, but I do run premium E-free mogas all the time in my 160HP O-320 & the motor runs *much* better than on 100LL. Regular mogas concerns me for the 160 hp engine, but I've had no problems with premium.

Charlie
 
First off, I'm no chemist, or expert on fuels by any means or measure.

In researching the use of ethanol additive fuels in aircraft, I've found that the potential problems of ethanol being hygroscopic (attracting and holding water), and the differences in the phase change properties between gasoline and ethanol, to be the limiting factors.

Ethanol and methanol have been used for quite some time to absorb water in auto fuel. Any auto parts place will sell you HEET, which is basically methanol and a few other additives. The notion that ethanol introduces more water to the system simply isn't true.

Again, I'm no chemist or physicist, but as I understand it; The problem with ethanol in aircraft fuel lies in the different physical properties relating to phase change. When in solution with gasoline and ethanol, water will be held by the ethanol. Under a big enough change in temperature and pressure, the alcohol and gasoline can fall out of solution. The ethanol taking the water with it. The ethanol/water is heavier than the gasoline, and will be at the bottom of the tank, and thus picked up by the fuel system first. Under the right (or in this case wrong) circumstances, your engine will cease to run.

I believe that is the reason that ethanol is not permitted in certified aircraft, with or without a mogas stc.

Other negatives to ethanol as fuel compared to gasoline are the density of the fuel, and the energy contained therein.

The stoichiometric ratio of gasoline is 14.7:1, whereas ethanol is about 9:1. As observed in flex fuel cars, in which millions have been invested to compensate for this loss, mileage drops by at least 25% on E85 vs gasoline. The ratios get worse when looking at ideal mixtures for rich max power.

Ethanol also weighs about 6.5 lbs / gallon.

Heavier, less energy, and lower stoich ratios are the inverse of desired qualities when looking for alternative aircraft fuels.

On the positive side for ethanol. E85 at the pump is about 105 octane, as such it is much better than pump gas for high compression engines, as well as turbo and supercharged applications. If an additive of some sort can overcome the phase separation issues, we may see E85 as an option on turbo / high compression aircraft should 100LL become unavailable.

It's mostly made from corn, at least in the US. I'd much rather my $$$ went to some Iowegian corn farmer than some middle eastern radical. And yes it burns cleaner than gasoline. I'm all for that as well.

My two cents.
 
both of my race bikes are fuel injected and I run leaded fuel. Most fuel injection motorcycles do not have 02 sensors, although few are coming out with them now.