[MGR1977]

Halon is a gas.

So no matter what position the bottle is in, it will be touching the o-ring.


So I don't see how the position of the bottle matters.

Except that in pressurized form, it's a liquid. Not sure if that would affect the properties, but I take your point.

Anyway, seems like the implied opinion on here is that Halon extinguishers can be installed horizontally. Otherwise somebody would've said something by now.

 

[MGR1977]

I didn't see this mentioned. Forgive me if it was.

Firegone foam extinguisher

We used to carry these on Blake's store, but they're available everywhere, including Home Depot, Walmart, etc. AND CHEAP!!!!! $12 to $15 at most stores.

According to the literature, the foam is non-toxic and non-corrosive. (Those terms are relative... don't eat the stuff, and don't use it in place of LPS 3.)

I've sprayed one at the shop and it seemed quite satisfactory. And easy to clean up. And didn't suffocate me. And it stays where you spray it, mostly, aside from some run off.

In flight, you could spray the fire... or spray it on your legs, hands, etc. if the flames were encroaching on your skin. That is something to consider.

The only down side to this type of extinguisher is that they WILL FREEZE in cold weather.

I have no skin in the game here, but I do think that I'd prefer a foam over ABC every time. And over Halon in most cases, simply due to the high cost of Halon.

YMMV. Fly safely!

I looked at the datasheet that Carol posted (thanks Carol). Although it's pretty much "Greek" to me, the one thing that I did notice was that the main component is water. So if you have an inflight fire you would fry/destroy your electronics if you shoot this behind the panel, which is most probably where you're gonna have to shoot it for inflight/in cockpit fires.

So with the highly electronic panels of today that costs $$$$$, if I had to choose between a Halon for $200 and a water (I'm sorry, foam) for $17 which will most certainly fry my electronics worth $20,000... Guess what I'm going to choose. Simple calculation for me.

 

[MGR1977]

I looked at the datasheet that Carol posted (thanks Carol). Although it's pretty much "Greek" to me, the one thing that I did notice was that the main component is water. So if you have an inflight fire you would fry/destroy your electronics if you shoot this behind the panel, which is most probably where you're gonna have to shoot it for inflight/in cockpit fires.

So with the highly electronic panels of today that costs $$$$$, if I had to choose between a Halon for $200 and a water (I'm sorry, foam) for $17 which will most certainly fry my electronics worth $20,000... Guess what I'm going to choose. Simple calculation for me.

I guess I just answered my own question from earlier about BC (NOT ABC!!) fire extinguishers. The answer seems to lie with the residue, whether corrosive or not. So all the other extinguishers will leave a residue EXCEPT the Halon. So even if the BC residue is non-corrosive, if I shoot it at my electronics, how do I clean up the residue from inside the units that didn't catch fire...? However seems like if I did with the Halon, I would not have any cleaning up to do... Anyway, that's what my logic tells me.

Dang!! Was trying to avoid that price tag!

 

[swjohnsey]

CO2 fire extinguishers are BC and leave no residue.

 

[Snowflake]

Keep in mind that the A in ABC includes you. Commonly referred to as "screaming Alpha."

 

[vfrazier]

I looked at the datasheet that Carol posted (thanks Carol). Although it's pretty much "Greek" to me, the one thing that I did notice was that the main component is water. So if you have an inflight fire you would fry/destroy your electronics if you shoot this behind the panel, which is most probably where you're gonna have to shoot it for inflight/in cockpit fires.

So with the highly electronic panels of today that costs $$$$$, if I had to choose between a Halon for $200 and a water (I'm sorry, foam) for $17 which will most certainly fry my electronics worth $20,000... Guess what I'm going to choose. Simple calculation for me.

I'm not sure if Carol was trying to point out a specific hazard that I missed? OTOH, if you look at the MSDS for caffeine, you'd swear off coffee forever.

For MGR1977, if my panel catches on fire, it belongs to the insurance company and my concern is protecting my pink skin and getting on the ground.

But as my post said, YMMV, and I only point out that there are other options than the awful dry chemical and expensive Halon. Another example, my grandad's truck seat caught fire from an errant lit wooden matchstick which broke off when he struck it. He pulled over and used nature's fire hose to put out the fire. True story.

 

[PCHunt]

.......... Another example, my grandad's truck seat caught fire from an errant lit wooden matchstick which broke off when he struck it. He pulled over and used nature's fire hose to put out the fire. True story.

Don't try that on a high-voltage electrical fire!

 

[Mike Meehan]

Information from Element

Got this information from Element so I am passing it along...

Q: Your(website) does not list aviation as one of the uses. What are the drawbacks?
A: We did not specifically exclude aviation, and I am not an expert in that area. That said, the extinguisher produces a thick cloud that obscures visibility. Unless you have the ability to do a rapid air exchange in a cockpit once a fire is out, the cloud lingers for an extended period of time. The safety concerns of not being able to see in an airplane cockpit are obvious, so that would be a primary concern. Also I am not familiar with the regulatory regime in aviation but, since our device is not UL listed, that may have a bearing on if the FAA allows it for use. Paul.

Q: Would a halon fire extinguisher also produce a cloud?
A: Halon will produce no cloud however it consumes ambient oxygen robbing you of the ability to breathe. Again, a problem in an enclosed space. CO2 extinguishers have a similar problem. Aviation poses a series of challenges which no one extinguisher addresses perfectly. Paul.

 

[Mel]

Got this information from Element so I am passing it along...
Q: Your(website) does not list aviation as one of the uses. What are the drawbacks?
A: We did not specifically exclude aviation, and I am not an expert in that area. That said, the extinguisher produces a thick cloud that obscures visibility. Unless you have the ability to do a rapid air exchange in a cockpit once a fire is out, the cloud lingers for an extended period of time. The safety concerns of not being able to see in an airplane cockpit are obvious, so that would be a primary concern. Also I am not familiar with the regulatory regime in aviation but, since our device is not UL listed, that may have a bearing on if the FAA allows it for use. Paul.
Q: Would a halon fire extinguisher also produce a cloud?
A: Halon will produce no cloud however it consumes ambient oxygen robbing you of the ability to breathe. Again, a problem in an enclosed space. CO2 extinguishers have a similar problem. Aviation poses a series of challenges which no one extinguisher addresses perfectly. Paul.

I've talked at length with the guys at Element and they do not recommend the Element for in-flight use because of the reason you stated.

I DO intend to carry an Element in my aircraft simply because many times aircraft fires happen on the ramp or at least on the ground where you can exit the cockpit. I would NOT use it in flight!

 

[RV7A Flyer]

I've talked at length with the guys at Element and they do not recommend the Element for in-flight use because of the reason you stated.

I DO intend to carry an Element in my aircraft simply because many times aircraft fires happen on the ramp or at least on the ground where you can exit the cockpit. I would NOT use it in flight!

I would submit that if you're in-flight and on-fire, you'll use whatever is at hand to put it out.

 

[Mel]

I would submit that if you're in-flight and on-fire, you'll use whatever is at hand to put it out.

Point taken!

 

[Larry DeCamp]

Point taken!

I am totally confused by all of the above insightful information regarding in flight fire.
_ First clue is I smell smoke, right ?
— Does approved aircraft wire insulation still smoke/burn ?
-How could I target the problem with limited amount of BC or Halon BEHIND THE PANEL while flying ?
- So, (rhetorical’ question) , is there an alternative other than a Halon system large enough to FILL the panel forward ?

IF you kill the master and pull the alternator field, the engine will run if backup ignition is electrically independent.
The cabin should be ventilated well in flight without blowing off the canopy.

Your thoughts would be appreciated .

 

[Pilot135pd]

I have an Element in my cockpit and 99% of the time fly without doors so I'm planning on pointing it to where the smoke is coming from and stick my head out the door if needed to get the plane on the ground. I also have an Element in my hangar and another on top of my refrigerator at home.

 

[Mel]

I have an Element in my cockpit and 99% of the time fly without doors so I'm planning on pointing it to where the smoke is coming from and stick my head out the door if needed to get the plane on the ground. I also have an Element in my hangar and another on top of my refrigerator at home.

Yep, I have Element extinguishers in each ground vehicle, in the kitchen, the airplane, and both hangars.

 

[Pilot135pd]

Yep, I have Element extinguishers in each ground vehicle, in the kitchen, the airplane, and both hangars.

I have one in my truck center console too in case I need it to help someone else in need while I'm on the road. Thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten that one.

 

[wirejock]

How do you folks secure the Element in the airplane? I see a few options for clips included.

 

[Ironflight]

I am totally confused by all of the above insightful information regarding in flight fire.
_ First clue is I smell smoke, right ?
— Does approved aircraft wire insulation still smoke/burn ?
-How could I target the problem with limited amount of BC or Halon BEHIND THE PANEL while flying ?
- So, (rhetorical’ question) , is there an alternative other than a Halon system large enough to FILL the panel forward ?

IF you kill the master and pull the alternator field, the engine will run if backup ignition is electrically independent.
The cabin should be ventilated well in flight without blowing off the canopy.

Your thoughts would be appreciated .

OK…thoughts…..

I was a volunteer firefighter for twenty five years, and have used a LOT of different fire extinguishers in training and in anger. Dry Chems - forget about them for aviation (and I don’t really like them for anything, honestly). CO2 is nice under some circumstances - but way to heavy for aviation. Halon is my favorite in the cockpit - it works fast, its relatively lightweight, can be evacuated quickly after it puts the fire out, and yup - its what we used in teh space program where you COULDN’T open a window after the fire was out.

Think about mounting one under teh panel, on teh sidewall (hang it from the longeron, structurally), and if you smell electrical smoke, reach up, pull the pin, and squeeze the trigger - its already up under where the fire is suspected. If your passenger’s cigarette has started the upholstery on fire, reach up, pull the quick release, pull the extinguisher out and use it where its needed.

All due respect fr those carrying the “Element” - if you haven’t used it on a cockpit (or car cabin) fire, you really don’t know what you have - and you can’t stop it once you start it. I agree that the Internet YouTube videos of it look promising, but you know what you say about what you learn from the Internet…… . (This post, of course, brought to you on the Internet…..)

 

[Pilot135pd]

How do you folks secure the Element in the airplane? I see a few options for clips included.

Mine is where any of the 4 people inside can reach it while I stick my head out the door opening if I have to and fly. I fly without doors.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

All due respect fr those carrying the “Element” - if you haven’t used it on a cockpit (or car cabin) fire, you really don’t know what you have - and you can’t stop it once you start it. I agree that the Internet YouTube videos of it look promising, but you know what you say about what you learn from the Internet…… . (This post, of course, brought to you on the Internet…..)

I have an Element clipped to the front floorboard ahead of the fuel valve where I can reach it but I agree I hope I never need it inflight, it would be a bad deal.....might have to open the canopy and that creates more problems. My main reason for carrying it is in case of a fueling or brake fire while on the ground.

 

[Mel]

All due respect fr those carrying the “Element” - if you haven’t used it on a cockpit (or car cabin) fire, you really don’t know what you have - and you can’t stop it once you start it. I agree that the Internet YouTube videos of it look promising, but you know what you say about what you learn from the Internet…… . (This post, of course, brought to you on the Internet…..)

As I have said before, I would not consider using the Element within closed quarters unless it was "life or death" circumstances and without considering all possible options. But a very high percentages of aircraft fires happen on ground. And in a ground vehicle, one can almost always pull over and stop.
I HAVE tested one so I know exactly what to expect. And in the home and hangar, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. (IMO!)

I got rid of all my dry chemical fire extinguishers long ago.

 

[Jerry Fischer]

The only fire extinguishers that should be used around our airplanes are Halon and perhaps CO2. The ABC fire extinguishers typically found in the stores are highly corrosive.

We had an airplane come to the shop for its first CI. It had been built by one of the "pro shops", whose name I will leave off. We discovered that the 4 spar bolts were missing as per the Van's SB, which there is no excuse for, as the airplane was less than a year old. In the process of opening up the flooring to insert the bolts, we noticed a horrible amount of corrosion on everything, including spar botls, trim motor, trim springs, and all metal screws throughout the interior, and even the rear spar bolts. The pictures would make you cringe.

There was also a very fine powder throughout the interior of the aircraft, which I thought could have been fiberglass sanding residue. The corrosion looked like someone had spilled a bucket of acid inside the airplane, so we encouraged the owner to reach out to the builder.

He was informed that there had been a fire on the first engine start due to a disconnected fuel line and a fire extinguisher was used to put the fire out. Obviously the wrong type of extinguisher!

I spoke to an arson investigator today who has a metallurgist on staff. He says the airplane should not be flown without being completely disassembled and throughly cleaned, as the dust from the fire extinguisher is now everywhere and it is extremely corrosive.

I can only imagine that some of the dust has also penetrated into the avionics and can only guess as to its impact down the road. The dust is as fine as flour. I posted some pics on my FB page. https://www.facebook.com/vic.syracuse.7 or this link https://baselegphotos.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

Vic

Please share this with Roman Air @ KWDR,,, ask me how I know first hand. next week @ KOSH

 

[Larry DeCamp]

OK…thoughts…..

I was a volunteer firefighter for twenty five years, and have used a LOT of different fire extinguishers in training and in anger. Dry Chems - forget about them for aviation (and I don’t really like them for anything, honestly). CO2 is nice under some circumstances - but way to heavy for aviation. Halon is my favorite in the cockpit - it works fast, its relatively lightweight, can be evacuated quickly after it puts the fire out, and yup - its what we used in teh space program where you COULDN’T open a window after the fire was out.

Think about mounting one under teh panel, on teh sidewall (hang it from the longeron, structurally), and if you smell electrical smoke, reach up, pull the pin, and squeeze the trigger - its already up under where the fire is suspected. If your passenger’s cigarette has started the upholstery on fire, reach up, pull the quick release, pull the extinguisher out and use it where its needed.

All due respect fr those carrying the “Element” - if you haven’t used it on a cockpit (or car cabin) fire, you really don’t know what you have - and you can’t stop it once you start it. I agree that the Internet YouTube videos of it look promising, but you know what you say about what you learn from the Internet…… . (This post, of course, brought to you on the Internet…..)

Thanks much Ironflight. This makes the most sense sense to me, now that my 2 place might have a passenger. Much appreciated advice !