W

Wills_9A

Active Member
I am sorry to post here, but I need to vent. I am one of the thousands of pilots who now live under the oppressive regime that is the Washington DC ADIZ. Where I used to get up early in the morning and go for a leisurely flight in the super smooth spring morning air, I am now forced to schedule any flight, file a flight plan (how do you file for going out and doing some steep turns and playing around?), beg for permission to take off and listen as if my life depends on it, because it probably does, to ATC for instructions. Basically, I had gone almost inactive as a pilot while I build my RV hoping that when it is done the ADIZ would be lifted and I would again be able to fly the way I used to fly.

So you can see that I was more than excited after reading yesterday's reports that congress was once again considering lifting the ADIZ restrictions from the DC area. The first thing I did this morning was check AOPA to see if there was anymore news and praying for the ADIZ's removal.

Not 2 hours later while watching CNN I see preliminary reports of the capitol being evacuated and F-16's flying around. Too much to hope it was an errant jet pilot scrolling through the transponder passing through the hijack code....yep, another private pilot in a Cessna....DAMN IT!!!!!!!!! :mad:

This could not have come at a worse time. I don't understand how hard it is to realize where you are and what you are flying in the area of. In this age of GPS and handheld NAV/Coms, how can you say, "sorry my radio went out"!? I am not saying this was not an innocent mistake, I have been lost before and even strayed a little close to restricted airspace, but the Capitol and White House...come on!@!! From here on out, everyone flying through the region should be required to have a handheld radio and GPS (what are we talking about here, a few hundred dollars used?) All of this could have been avoided and I could have been dreaming again of free flying near my home.

Thanks for letting me post this here and I hope that the instructor gets no more than a slap on the wrist and the student is let off of the hook, but please....PLEASE, if any readers live in the area or are travelling through here, PAY ATTENTION!!!!!! We all pay the price!
 
Both the action and reaction are suspect

As you say, "How could this happen?" It is almost as if the whole thing was staged for a story or for political leverage against general aviation. It would be good to get all the facts on this "story" and I mean all of the story on both the action and the reaction. Even if the action it is just another dumb pilot mistake, the timing is very suspect and the reaction seems a little too well orchestrated and overplayed to capture public attention to the threat posed by general aviation. I will be even more suspicious if the pilot is not held accountable.
 
I'm from the Federal Government and I am here to help!

We all are to blame for this mess. Every year we allow Uncle Sam to remove more and more of our personal freedoms in the name of safety. I am not as safe as I was 20 years ago, but I am as guilty as the rest of the apathy that has allowed the word LIBERTY to be virturally removed from our country. I could go on about Democrats and Republicans, but a politician is a politician. Thomas Jefferson was correct about his comments concerning a periodic revolution, but in this day and age, it is too inconvenient to take time out of our schedules to revolt against Big Brother.

Count me in the camp as PO about the limitations on our ability to enjoy the wild blue yonder and remember this aggravation the next time you vote!

Thanks for the vent and God Bless our Troops.

Robby Knox
 
What were they thinking?

It does seem surprising that anyone would fly around DC without a radio or GPS. Even the compass didn't seem to work in that airplane, or the guys flying it didn't know how to read it. Thank God a shoot-down was not ordered. The TV just said they were within 3 miles of the capitol building. Could these guys not have noticed all those monuments and familiar-looking buildings? Are there really pilots in the world that don't know it's a bad idea to fly over downtown DC? Baffling.
 
Thre's actually another thread that's been going on this in the TEST area, but the guy was a student with another pilot from PA on the way to an air show. His wife told the AP that they knew there were restricted airspaces but they were going to go between them.

Worst part. The Dept. of Homeland Security says they won't be charged because it was just an accident.
I wonder if this was the first stupid thing they've ever done with a plane?
 
It seems pretty stupid to be bad-mouthing these pilots based on media reports, when we all know how ridiculously inaccurate such reports are when it comes to aviation issues. I'd need to see a record of their flight path, both intended and actual, to form an opinion. Regarding the radio, who knows if they had one? Who knows what freq they were on? What is the shape of the no-fly zone? Weather? Altitude? C'mon guys, give the pilot a break until you know what happened.

Meanwhile, is anybody bothered by the fact that at 11:28 am on a WORK DAY the man with the most important job in the free world was out mountain biking with a high school friend!?!?!? What were you red states thinking?

Steve Zicree
 
szicree said:
It seems pretty stupid to be bad-mouthing these pilots based on media reports, when we all know how ridiculously inaccurate such reports are when it comes to aviation issues. Steve Zicree
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I usually would tend to agree with Steve on this one. BUT... in this case, radio/no radio, GPS/no GPS I don't know how anybody could have strayed that close (three miles, reportedly) to the Capitol/White House. I lived in DC and in Northern Virginia for about 4 years. The geography (rivers, landmarks, monuments, national mall, etc.) is way too obvious not to realize where you are at. While I know it's easy to get temporarily lost, just knowing that you might be going anywhere close to the capital region restricted area should have made these pilots take precautions, more precautions, and more precautions still. Better yet, just fly the extra few miles completely around the restricted area.

Now, if any news reports come back that it wasn't 3 miles, but 13 miles away, Steve's point remains a good one.

Steve
 
//t seems pretty stupid to be bad-mouthing these pilots based on media reports, when we all know how ridiculously inaccurate such reports are when it comes to aviation issues.

First of all, I'm in the media and -- surprise -- so are a lot of other pilots, some of whom, I notice, wrote today's stories on AP. They were quite specific.

But let's for the sake of argument the stuff was all wrong on the media reports.

Can you think of a GOOD reason why a C-150 pilot would find himself over over Washington?

Boy, I sure can't.

// C'mon guys, give the pilot a break until you know what happened.

You know, I'd sure like to open up my e-mail tomorrow and see that Phil Boyer unleashed a broadside at the stupidity of the pilots. But I doubt I will. I hear another plaintive wail about restricted airspace and a kneejerk defense of someone just because they're pilots.

Seriously, think about the MASSIVE amount of damage these two guys just did to all of us and all of the efforts, the countless hours, that we put into trying to convince people that pilot's are responsible and safe and that GA is not a security threat.

I'll give these two guys credit for one thing. At least they knew the intercept procedures.
 
break down of communication...

Curious if anyone knows why our civilian comm radios don't 'guard' the emergency frequencies like the radios in every military jet I've flown do? That is, monitor 121.5 and/or 243.0 irrespective of the frequency in use.

If you're wondering if the 'guard' function is ever used...the answer is yes. Many times I've heard calls on guard from center asking for someone to come up on the right frequency, from NORAD trying to contact an unknown rider in the vicinity of Crawford TX when the POTUS' is at his ranch, and from NORAD on the east coast trying to contact someone entering the ADIZ incorrectly.

I'd imagine around noon today, north of Washington DC, there were many radio calls which were useless because NORAD was broadcasting on 121.5 and the C-150 pilot had something else tuned into his radio.

While I wholeheartedly believe these additional pilot and airspace restrictions implemented in the last 3-1/2 years are futile...after all, I don't think the terrorists will care about them, I do think a rule requiring that all new comm radios guard emergency frequencies (so that he/she can be contacted) would help the honest pilot who is making a mistake live to fly another day. Of course, if the switch is in the OFF position...hmmm...

So, what do you all think?

-Jim
Northern Virginia
RV-10 lurker
 
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//Meanwhile, is anybody bothered by the fact that at 11:28 am on a WORK DAY the man with the most important job in the free world was out mountain biking with a high school friend!?!?!

He just got back late last night from a four country tour f Europe, including Russia and Georgia.

He had to work while I was working on my fuselage over the weekend. If he wants to go biking for some R &R, it's OK with me.

If he'd been in the White House, maybe the jets and blackhawks wouldn't have been firing flares, but maybe they'd shoot first and ask questions later.

So maybe it turned out best for all concerned.
 
No Facts Mam

Seems to me we should crucify the guy right now. We don't need the facts and we don't need no stinkin trial.

I mean, don't we find it ironic that on one hand we are talking about our loss of aviation liberties in the interest of national security and on the other we are ready to lynch a few folks in the interest of GA? No response needed folks, rhetorical question.

I would say on the surface it seems pretty impossible for something like this to happen. But then stranger things have happened in aviation like the ATP who landed at the wrong airport, remember that one? I was at DWH near Houston the other day listening to the hand held. A pilot asked for permission to pass through the airspace traveling north to south. The controller gave him clearance and reminded him to stay below 2000 feet to prevent incursion into the Houston Class B. No less than three times during this guys short journey through the controlled airspace the controller had to remind him to stay below 2000. On one occasion, patience running thin, the controller literally yelled N&*() say your altitude. After the reply the controller said, "Now does that sould like below 2000 to you?" It happens folks.

I am sure this guy feels pretty badly and I am sure our good neighbors will make him feel even more so. Perhaps a little sodium pentathol and a few amps to the testicals will make em talk. Or maybe we should mount the cannons and blow a few 150's out of the sky to show the feds that GA can police itself.

Inadequately trained, confused, disoriented, lost, panic stricken -- probably. Stupid, idiotic, nut case, hardened criminal -- probably not.

All of those who have never made a judgement error or done something stupid (which you now love to talk and laugh about around the water cooler)please stand up and take one step forward.

Last I looked, one is still innocent until proven guilty. But hey it is in the interest of national security, I mean General Aviation so personal liberties don't apply in this case.
 
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Good Idea

Great idea but it will never be adopted because it is too practical and doesn't cost enough. (sarcasm intended).

I think my handheld does this. But you are correct, if it isn't turned on, it doesn't do much good.
 
// am sure this guy feels pretty badly and I am sure our good neighbors will make him feel even more so. Perhaps a little sodium pentathol and a few amps to the testicals will make em talk. Or maybe we should mount the cannons and blow a few 150's out of the sky to show the feds that GA can police itself.

You know, in a month or so, someone will propose laws further restricting GA, some newspaper will run an article quoting some Homeland Security guy quesitoning the safety of GA, and AOPA will put out press releases and EAA will organize letter writing campaigns and folks will post about how the great unwashed just don't get it.

The reaction to these guys shows the utter fallacy of the Airport Watch program and all of those alternatives to tightening security that AOPA and the EAA BEGGED the feds to go with instead of further restrictions.

Pilots are people who can police themselves and ensure responsible flying.
No, really, they can't.

So hunker down, folks, because there's fallot aplenty coming from this.

These two clowns just gave the "chicken little" crowd everthing they need, and they served it up to them on a silver platter.

And if that doesn't raise your ire just a little bit, then we probably deserve what's coming.
 
//So, what do you all think?


I think it's a good idea, but I'm betting we'll get a modification of the ADIZ procedure.

I'm betting VFR flight will be eliminated within X nautical miles of Washington. You'll have to be on an IFR flight plan.

I think that's a slam dunk.

And I think it'll have a lot more support from the folks who just happened to be the ones to be rushed out of their workplace today, than it would've before 10this morning.

These guys aren't going to be charged with anything. It'll be interesting, though, to see what the FAA does. I'm guessing they'll tell EAA and AOPA to go to hell, and they'll be wanting to make an example of someone.
 
Bob Collins said:
And if that doesn't raise your ire just a little bit, then we probably deserve what's coming.
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Nahhh, doesn't raise my ire at all. I have no personal control over the situation other than to provide input to the lawmakers and support the organizations that lobby on behalf of GA. Like it or not (I like it) that is how the system works. The alternatives are not to exciting to me.

Remember though that "restrictions" are all relative. Ask our friends across the pond, they will laugh at our "whining" about the restrictions we have in the US. They would give their right main to have the freedoms that we have in aviation. That is not to say that I am in favor of more restrictions, because I am not. But it certainly isn't worth getting all worked up to the point of calling for this pilots eternal damnation.

You are probably correct that there will be implications and yes it may be another kneejerk reaction. But such is the delemma we have. On the one hand we want to open GA to as many people as possible. On the other hand, when we do so, we attract a continuum of natural and learned abilities as well as skill levels. At some time or another, someone is going to mess up and then everyone is impacted. That's just the way it works. Always has always will.

I predict that this is not the end of the world even though some will claim it is. I try to stay away from the extremes. In this case, the system worked. The plane was detected, the threat was assessed, and the threat was dealt with. It could be argued that the response was a bit much as the real threat of a C152 impacting the whitehouse is still pretty slim. I probably wouldn't have even pentrated the roof. But none the less, the system did work.

On the other hand (I just read the full article) I congratulate the feds for not prosecuting as they rightfully saw this as an "accident." Right on! A measured response based on the facts! Some of you folks were ready to lynch the guy so how does that compare to our overly oppressive FAA who basically said, "No harm, no foul?"

I do understand how some of you got pretty upset over this. I would have also 20 years ago. But the older I get the more I understand that not everything in the world is predictable nor controllable. Go with the flow, do what you can, influence those in positions of power to effect changes, and don't let the rest bother you too much.

Cheers! Keep your chins up and keep flyin'.
 
Tom Maxwell said:
It could be argued that the response was a bit much as the real threat of a C152 impacting the whitehouse is still pretty slim. I probably wouldn't have even pentrated the roof. But none the less, the system did work.
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I was just watching video -- because of COURSE this flippin' story led all the nightly newscasts --of the people running in Washington. Absolutely panic-stricken. And I first think to myself, "what's the big deal? A Coke can can do as much damage."

But where terrorism is concerned, damage isn't the point. Panic is the point.

People and politcians do stupid, stupid things when they're scared. Sometimes they take freedoms away from us. So those who would deny us our freedom -- the terrorists -- don't have to actually inflict that much damage. They have to inflict fear and we'll take care of the rest.

We all, appropriately so, argue that small planes don't or can't inflict damage and therefore aren't a security risk. Among the many accomplishments of our intreprid Pennsylvania brethren today, we can add the very instructive lesson to the rest of us that we're defending our hobby with facts that simply do not matter to people.

Gotta come up with a Plan B.
 
You know one of the biggest problems we have, IMHO, is that after 911 people seem to be afraid of their own shadows. Life is a risk, we try to minimize that risk but to do so in such a manner as to get out of bed in the morning and get wrapped up in a full foam rubber suit etc etc. with a million laws to protect anyone from everything is overboard.

For this post I am going to ignore the fact that the pilot made some big mistakes...what about the reactions? It is not like that plane was flying very fast, maybe 115 mph (which controllers can track). They should have known that this plane was a very small plane (most fast, heavy planes that can cause damage stall at this speed) and therefore could not do that much damage anyway. And don't give me the bit about putting a bomb on it...someone in a land bound vehicle could do that much easier without attracting nearly the attention that this did! My point is you had cops lifting the minority leader out of her shoes to rush her and others to "safety" :rolleyes: :confused: .

Yeah there is almost NO common sense when it comes to all these restrictions flight and otherwise. It is knee jerk reactions by those who want to appear to be doing something. If you don't believe me then just ask the pilots that are given grief for having a pair of clippers/files in their flight bag or view all the bare foot people at the airport. Or ask why a pilot can't carry a gun (without ALOT of hoop jumping) to protect the plane but an F-16 can shoot that same plane down... I could go on and on but I would feel like I was just ranting...I have perhaps done more then I should anyway.

And now back to why this whole thread started...many were dismayed about an incursion...mistakes do happen and I feel for the guy even if I might be ticked off at the same time. I would feel like a mouse if I were in his shoes that is for sure. Lets not forget why this incursion happened in the first place though...because an isolated case of terrorism caused this country to become so paranoid that some were willing to change the landscape of liberty for ever...thus numerous no fly zones etc etc.

And now I am going back to work on my landing lights...yeah I am one of those who did not get a kit and it has taken way longer then I thought... HID lights are really nice and bright though :)
 
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Before these no-fly zones were put in place, little bug smashers flew over DC day and night without people running scared through the streets. I'm sure that in the vicinity of the white house there are areas where auto traffic is restricted as well. So what do we do if some old lady takes a wrong turn in her Caddie? This hysteria is nonsense. And if it's justified, then shouldn't we have flight restrictions over everybody's house, not just W's? No planes over any school, hospital, theme park, beach resort, and most importantly, strip bars. If the security of our leaders is so important and so at risk, we should keep them underground whenever possible. This crap is just like gun control --the bad guys won't follow the rules anyway.

And yes, I can think of reasons why the 150 was over DC. Disorientation, medical emergency, nav failure, misinterpretation of flight restriction info are but a few. When I was working on my ticket I remember reading about various mindsets that often lead to aviation accidents. Near the top of the list was the "I'm way too smart to do that" mentality.

Steve Zicree
 
Credibility gap

Does anyone else question the credibility of this whole scenario? The timing, who won, who lost... If those facts don't raise some thoughts about manipulation then we are still vulnerable to it. Well, like someone said, keep your head down and just keep plodding along and enjoy what we have and not be concerned about the future...
 
flyerfly said:
YIf you don't believe me then just ask the pilots that are given grief for having a pair of clippers/files in their flight bag or view all the bare foot people at the airport. Or ask why a pilot can't carry a gun (without ALOT of hoop jumping) to protect the plane but an F-16 can shoot that same plane down... I could go on and on but I would feel like I was just ranting...I have perhaps done more then I should anyway.:)
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Good points. I think in many cases the goal is to create the "illusion" of security rather than security itself. For years I was the guy pushign the tones and reading these words o nthe radio, "if this had been an actual emergency..." and I KNEW the stupidity of the EBS sytem, that some minimum wage radio jock like me was going to hang in there to tell YOU how to get your family to safety, and sacrifice mine while doing it. But the EBS system waas designed to create the ILLUSION that there was a rational public response to a nuclear attack. There isn't.

That said, to your point about nail clippers. Hey, 19 guys with 99 cent Stanley box cutters got two big office buildings to collapse, destroyed part of the Pentagon, killed 3-thouand people, put the world's strongest economy into a recession, and got it to start two wars, killing another couple thousand Americans. All with what? Box cutters.

Who'd have ever thought THAT was possible?
 
szicree said:
And yes, I can think of reasons why the 150 was over DC. Disorientation, medical emergency, nav failure, misinterpretation of flight restriction info are but a few. When I was working on my ticket I remember reading about various mindsets that often lead to aviation accidents. Near the top of the list was the "I'm way too smart to do that" mentality.

Steve Zicree
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I said GOOD reasons. Two guys? BOTH disoriented? I know that people say pilots shouldn't analyze this thing because we've all made mistkaes and it's true: we have all made mistakes. But think about the sheeer NUMBER of things these guys had to screw up to accomplish what they accomplished. From improper flight planning, to using old charts, to poor navigating, to cluelessness on what to do when being lost, from failure to monitor 121.5, from failure to "climb and confess," to telling pilots of F-18s "no" when ordered to leave. Man, it reeally boggles the mind and I recognize the tendency to want to protect the guys because they're well....one of us...but you know.....they're really NOT.

It's too bad this morning though that the majority of the nation thinks they are. And we can criticize THEM for thinking that way because obviously, yes, they ARE wrong.

But how would they ever know that? We're too busy protecting them because they're "one of us."

We all are quick -- as we should be -- to install the fancy whiz-bang things in our panels to make our flights safer -- GPSs, Stormscopes, traffic avoidance systems etc. etc. etc. We undercut all of that when we so passionately defend pilots like this just because they're pilots and we're pilots.

My guess is they didn't wake up yesterday morning and become stupid for the first time.

Ground 'em until they show they can fly respnsibly and safely.
 
The thing I do not understand is why folks get scared so easily.

The aim of terrorists is one-fold -- it's not necessarily to kill (although many would if they could). The actual stated goal of terrorists is in the name...they aim to terrorize people...to make people afraid so that it affects their day-to-day lives.

Why are people so afraid of terrorists? I suppose it's because politicians can use fear to control the masses and this is why they aid in the creation of fear w/ the silly color-coded terrorism alert system.

If we are afraid of terrorists (i.e. running panic-striken from buildings), the terrorists have *already* won. There's no point fighting them. They have achieved their goal.

I guess as an engineer I tend to be a little analytical of everything. My chances of taking a dirt nap at the hands of a terrorist are *much* less than the likelyhood that I'm going to develop some form of cancer, heart disease or brain disorder (seizures/strokes/aneurysms which run in my family).

I was embarrased to see my fellow countrymen and our nation's leaders running from the halls of government yesterday. Where's the honor? Oh wait...that's not in style any more.

And what's this with the government not doing enough to protect the DMZ? The F-16's were there, ready to shoot the guys down. I would guess that a few seconds more and the government would have had a lot of explaining to do. You could argue that a faster plane could have made it all the way to the white house, but we don't know how long the F-16 or the Blackhawk had them in their sights trying to get their attention.
 
Who'd of thunk it?

Bob Collins said:
Who'd have ever thought THAT was possible?
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I would have and so do most Americans. I think most rational Americans understand that "being safe" can only go so far. And if someone wants to do something badly enough, especially when they are willing to give their life to do it, then no amount of security is going to stop it. In individual circumstances, sure, but in the long run, no.

We can do certain things to minimize risk but as has been stated, life is full of risks and security is inversely proportional to liberties. You want more security, then you give up more liberties.

And yes security is a state of mind. It is not something you can touch or really quantify. If a large number of the people wake up every day and FEEL secure, then security exists. Unfortunately the lack thereof, or perhaps holes in the system is a better way to put it, isn't visible until something happens. Afterall, experience is something you get right after you needed it.

I think we live in the most secure country in the world and I don't believe GA represents any significant risk to national security. That's my story and I am sticking to it. If enough people say it at every opportunity they get to say it, then people will start to believe it. I admit we have a tough row to hoe. The big guys who would have the populous believe otherwise and have the media's ear to get their word out make it tough. And this is why it is so important to have organizations like EAA and AOPA singing our song in front of everyone. On the other hand, we have the masses to get the word out to a lot of people in a short period of time. Every time you talk to a coworker or a family member or a friend just start up a conversation with, "What do you think of that aircraft incident in DC yesterday?" When they tell you, then lead them down the path that it was not really a threat at all. When you get done reading this post, write (don't call) your representative and senator and in your own words (don't use a form letter) tell them why you think the reaction yesterday was an overreaction and why GA is not a threat.

We all like to feel like a victim and believe we can do nothing to change things, which may be true from an individual perspective. But I can tell you that congressman (their staff) do read mail from their constituents and while one letter or email won't get much reaction, a few thousand will. We can take the "poor is me" approach to the issue and leave it up to EAA and AOPA to represent us, but if in addition to this representation we as a collective whole make our position heard, it will make a difference. I know that is a cliche but it is true.

Go get em folks and make your voices heard. It doesn't take 10 minutes to compose an email and send it to your congressman. I know from reading these threads that there are some very articulate and logical thinking people out there who could do a whole lot of good with just 10 or 15 minutes of their time.

I'll get down now. Thanks!
 
Bob Collins said:
That said, to your point about nail clippers. Hey, 19 guys with 99 cent Stanley box cutters got two big office buildings to collapse, destroyed part of the Pentagon, killed 3-thouand people, put the world's strongest economy into a recession, and got it to start two wars, killing another couple thousand Americans. All with what? Box cutters.

Who'd have ever thought THAT was possible?
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Excellent point, Bob. Remember too, that the government trying to fight terrorism was one of the big aids to the success of the 911 attacks. If the FAA didn't have rules in place stating that airline pilots were to follow the demands of hijackers, maybe, just *maybe* it wouldn't have happened. A box cutter isn't exactly something that makes my knees tremble. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that rule has now been changed. Maybe some of the big iron drivers out there can confirm this.
 
Bob Collins said:
We undercut all of that when we so passionately defend pilots like this just because they're pilots and we're pilots.

Ground 'em until they show they can fly respnsibly and safely.
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No Bob, I think we should defend them because they are Americans and human beings and have certain rights as guaranteed by our constitution. Sounds like a speach I know, but the bottom line is everything that happens every day comes down to this one fact. If you were on the other side of the fence for whatever reason, aviation related or not, you would want the same protection and benefit of the doubt. Give em a break not because they are pilots but because they are human beings.

As far as how could so many things go wrong? It happens, panic has a way of freezing the mind and things can snowball quickly. I served on a destroyer in the US Navy. One night the officer on deck decided to turn to starboard instead of to port as he should have. The result was the destroyer turned on a course perpendicular to an oncoming aircraft carrier. Luckily the captain got to the bridge and turned the destoyer in time to create a sideswipe situation instead of a T-bone. 8 sailors died that day and a destroyer was, well, destroyed. How could this happen? Lookouts on the bridgewings, about a dozen people on the bridge, people tracking the ship's every movement, radar, GPS, signalman, double all of this on the aircraft carrier, how could it happen? Because we are all humans and unless you are there, you can't begin to imagine what goes on in the human mind during such an event. I think these guys did recognize they did something wrong, they paniced, and after that it was all over. It took one of those epiphanies (flares over the bow) to snap their minds back into reality and to finally take action. This is how the mind works when it is frozen with fear. That's why you slap your wife when she is histerically out of control - just kidding folks :)

From what I know today, I do agree with your last comment. At the same time, I can only imagine how they must feel about what happened and how they must feel about the way the GA community looks at them for what happened. The facts will come out over time, hopefully, and we and they will be able to learn from their mistakes.
 
Jamie said:
*maybe* it wouldn't have happened. A box cutter isn't exactly something that makes my knees tremble. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that rule has now been changed. Maybe some of the big iron drivers out there can confirm this.
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I'm guessing there were no instructions to follow. I'm guessing the pilots were all dead in a matter of seconds. But, who knows.

I just wish there had been more than 4 jets defending the entire East Coast that day.

Then again, there's lots of things I wish were different that day.
 
Something is just not right here

If the sensational, even shrill media reports are to be believed, the 95-100 MPH C-150 flew within 3 miles of the White House. That represents a considerable amount of time and a huge amount of airspace for a low performance aircraft to successfully penetrate. On one level, I find it stunningly pathetic that a little bitty light plane can generate enough fear and trembling in America, the Home of the Brave, to cause the mass evacuation of the White House, Supreme Court building, even lifting the House Leader...literally out of her shoes! I really do not blame the Secret Service and other security agencies for their collective response efforts, they are after all, paid to be paranoid. But I do take exception to the extraordinary extent to which our government has carefully cultivated a climate of fear among the populace in the post 9-11 years.
Sometimes we pilots tend forget that as a whole, General Aviation matters very,very little to the everyday lives of mainstream America. Mainstream America would much rather focus on "Desperate Housewives" and "CSI". Woe be unto those pretenders who would dare prempt that focus! A few years ago, a suicidal pilot crashed his C-150 into the side of the White House. The building was only slightly damaged. Nowhere in the saturation media coverage I personally witnessed yesterday was it emphasized that the same airplane has indeed crashed into the side of the White House yet proved to cause minimal damage to the taxpayers building. I do not believe for a nanosecond that most leaders in government within the Beltway has the safety of its citizens uppermost in mind. Oh sure, they do look out for the collective security but only as a peripheral issue. The overreaction and security measures we witnessed yesterday were designed for one thing and one thing only... to save the skins of those who either led us into or work daily to perpetuate this mess in the first place. It is those men who...simply because they can....surround themselves with every security measure known to man up to and including the warm and fuzzy feeling of SAM encirclement. The national nightmare of fear starts with the rarified mindset of inner Washington and trickles out from the dark imaginations of Foggy Bottom. One more thing. Sadly it is a truism that the more security one seeks, the less secure one tends to feel. So, in the end who really wins in this so-called War on Terrorism? Will we in the aviation community proclaim victory even if that means our license to fly is severely restricted or even lost just so every citizen Nancy Boy out there can sleep better at night?

Rick Galati
 
Tom Maxwell said:
No Bob, I think we should defend them because they are Americans and human beings and have certain rights as guaranteed by our constitution. Sounds like a speach I know, but the bottom line is everything that happens every day comes down to this one fact. If you were on the other side of the fence for whatever reason, aviation related or not, you would want the same protection and benefit of the doubt. Give em a break not because they are pilots but because they are human beings.
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You know though, there were a couple of human beings the other day here in St. Paul that killed a really, really good cop. They don't get an ounce of sympathy from me. And, yeah, I know they haven't gone on trial yet. I don't care. They did it and I want them to pay and pay dearly.

Now before someone says I'm comparing what happened yesterday to the killing of a cop, let me state for the record, I am not.

I am just saying nobody gets a "your actions don't count against you" card from me just because they walk upright.

My opinion on cop killers? They shouldn't walk the streets. My opinion on bad pilots. They should be retrained if not punished severely.

My opinion on general aviation pilots. We sholdn't be so afraid to say that.

YMMV
 
Jamie said:
A box cutter isn't exactly something that makes my knees tremble. QUOTE]

True, however, you are looking at it from today back and hindsight is 20/20. But look at it from the context of the day it happened. Nothing like this had ever happened before, there had been hijackings before but they resulted in a plane isolated on a runway in some other country. I believe that a stewardess on one flight was killed with that box knife. At the time, the crews intent was probably (I don't know what they were thinking) to preserve the lives of the people on board. From that perspective, a box knife is an issue. Had the crew and passengers known what the outcome was going to be at that moment in time, we probably would have had more outcomes like the one in PA on the same day. What is the difference between the PA flight and the others? Simple, through their cell phone conversations, the passengers knew what had happened on the other flights. So at that point, their entire perspective changed and the threat of a box knife became secondary to stopping the plane. Had the crew and passengers of the other flights known what was in store, they in all likelihood would have acted differently. It is so easy to look back with all of the facts and ask why didn't someone act differently.
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Rick6a said:
If the sensational, even shrill media reports are to be believed, the 95-100 MPH C-150 flew within 3 miles of the White House.

Rick Galati
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Well your thoughts are completely logical and rational. The problem is it's not the issue. Yeah, perhaps he rules stink and the reaction is overwrought (although I have to say the media reports I've seen -- the Post and Times-- have been logical and fact-based but YMMV).

We don't get a break from public opinion just because we don't like the rules, of course. And the issue isn't that the Cessna coldn't do much damage, we know that. The issue shouldn't be that GA represents a security risk because we know that too.

The problem is that perception IS reality. And when you think of all the money and all the time and all the effort that AOPA and EAA has put into dealing with perceptions, and to have that all undone by a couple of goofballs, is just maddening as all getout.

More maddening than the rules nad paranoia? Well, pretty darned close! (g)

I have to believe that Phil Boyer would like to strange both of these guys today.

To me, it's like being on the finishing kit and coming out int eh grage and finding the project you've put time and money and love into, has been trashed. And now you have to start again with the emp.

Life as we know it won't be over. But it sure sucks anyway. (g)
 
Bob Collins said:
Well, you're a better man than me...
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No not at all Bob. Sorry if I came across that way. I just have a different perspective on things shaped by my life experiences. Your perception is shaped by your experiences. It isn't a case of one being better than the other. I respect your opinion greatly and appreciate you taking the time to share it.
 
Bob Collins said:
You know though, there were a couple of human beings the other day here in St. Paul that killed a really, really good cop.
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Alleged cop killers. Probably pretty cut and dried but never the less until proven guilty they are alleged cop killers. Now once they are convicted then my perspective changes and they deserve most anything up to and including the death penalty.

But I am a romantic at heart and do do do do do believe in due process because I think I understand the human mind fairly well and hate can drive people to do some bad things. There are countless examples in our own hisotry. We need the process to allow people time to cool off and to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That is what separates us from regimes such as Sadam's.

Man we are really stretching this conversation out to the edges aren't we? But it is a very so thin line.
 
Tom Maxwell said:
Alleged cop killers. Probably pretty cut and dried but never the less until proven guilty they are alleged cop killers.
Man we are really stretching this conversation out to the edges aren't we? But it is a very so thin line.
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That's why I stuck the original thread in the TEST areas. But ,you know, the great thing about these Forums over Yahoo? Everything's segmented so folks can just go where they want to go and talk abut what they want to talk bout without hving their conversations interfere with folks who don't want to talk about that.

To the cop killers, oh, no question about it. They're are alleged cop killers and I recognize that I'm perfectly willing to string them up and deny them due process. I'm totally gulty of that. That's why I don't carry a gun in this "shall carry" state. I recognize my inability to prevent my emotions from overpowering my intellect in situations like this.

I probaby belong in the Old West. (g)
 
The problem I think is the (liberal) submissive attitude in Govt towards lawbreakers.

Instead of a slap on the wrist (letting them go with a warning), the Air Force should have sent a pair of missiles, special delivery, no questions asked. The word gets around to the irresponsibles real quick that way. The two should have been nowhere close to DC!

I have to ask myself, what is the real message sent to potential terrorists (and to bad pilots) here?
 
"Meanwhile, is anybody bothered by the fact that at 11:28 am on a WORK DAY the man with the most important job in the free world was out mountain biking with a high school friend!?!?!? What were you red states thinking?"

Couldn't resist taking the cheep shot, I guess.

I thought the object of the discussion was to get out pilot friends and neighbors to concentrate on duties and responsibilities while X-country flying. Silly me.
 
I'm honestly sorry if it came across as a cheap shot, that was not my intention. When I wrote it I had just been informed about the incident and was floored by the images of Washingtonians running for their lives while at the same time, according to the media, the President wasn't even aware of the situation. Again, Washington under air attack; Commander in Chief riding bikes with school chum! The President is my ELECTED leader and works FOR ME, he's not a king that I must bow to. I know many folks feel differently, but I'm entitled to my opinion.

Steve Zicree
 
I live and fly within the ADIZ. I hate it. You have to make two phone calls before every flight and talk to Air Traffic Control going in and out. It has significantly reduced GA flying in this area. It does almost nothing to enhance security as yesterdays incident demonstrates.

That said, I?m furious at the individual flying the plane who had a certificate ? he?s not worthy of being called a pilot ? for busting the ADIZ, and causing the White House, Capitol and Supreme Court buildings to be evacuated. As the first poster said, it seemed AOPA and others were making progress recently in having the ADIZ reduced or removed. That?s gone. This is a huge setback.

There is no excuxe for what this individual did. How can you miss the ADIZ on the Washington sectional? How can you not look at a chart on a long ? for a Cessna 150 ? cross-country from southern Pennsylvania to southern North Carolina? Was he flying with ten year old charts? Was he even aware of the extensive Class Bravo airspace? Did he bust that too, and endanger commercial passengers?

I think they ? TSA, Secret Service, whoever ? are going to have to do something because of this incident. Now, they could admit to the reality that the ADIZ procedures aren?t effective and get rid of them. But I think it?s more likely they just ban all flying other than scheduled airliners within, say, 50 miles of the Capital.

Flying privately is one of the freedoms we enjoy in this country. But it does not come without responsibility. For example, you cannot fly in such a way that puts others at risk. Through his ignorance, laziness and incompetence, this individual will probably cause thousands of real pilots to lose more of their flying freedom.

I hope the this individual loses his certificate, forever.
 
Enough Already!

The dead horse is pulp, unrecognizable even. Everything has been said, except that Michael Jackson has not received the vilification and ridicule that these C150 drivers have encountered! Remember two things, "Good news is no news" and VOTE!

Thanks,
Robby Knox
RV-8 95% complete, 95% remaining.
 
Wow what a thread... work all morning and there are 5 pages now!

My point about a false sense of security was not that nail clippers or box cutters could or could not do damage...of course I would say that the small folding file on my wifes clippers were harmless and indeed so useless that we did not care that the TSA lady broke them off without asking before we could say a word! The fact of the matter is that anything under the sun could be described as a deadly weapon by a scared person (even a piece of string). They take a nail clippers but let me have my sharp 6 inch mechanical drawing pen (metal tips and all). They take the nail file from a pilot but let him have a crash axe under his seat...which is secondary to the fact that HE/SHE controls the plane in the first place :p Yes there is no logic...it is simply hysteria. As was mentioned earlier most laws are of no real use to protect us, a bad person with sufficient determination and knowledge can easily ignore them or get around them.

If someone suggests a means of doing something bad then a law is immediatly created to make it a crime. There are those who would ban or regulate everything....it gives them something to do.

So much money (money they take from you and me) is spent on making everything so secure that it sickens me. Why can't we follow the example of of a certain Andrew Jackson who had a sword cane and attacked a would be assassin with it? This country survived more then 100 years before vast amounts of money began to be spent on security. I am not saying NO protection I am saying that millions and millions along with intense paranoia is not the answer. Unfortunately we live in a sinful world where I think things are only getting worse...safety is not a sure thing. The best thing we can do is to minimize risk but not do it at the expense of ruining the way of life this country has to offer.

A favorite author of mine wrote a book entitled "Accent on the Right" where the basic idea was to concentrate on the good things, not the bad. As a country we need to do this more, you don't ignore the bad you just put the emphasis on what is good.

With that I hope everyone has a GOOD afternoon :D
 
I guess there really is some good news out of this whole thing, though. Whether we like it or not, we have a lot of new rules and there will be problems, but, the plane was tracked and intercepted, it was identified as non-belligerent, and it didn't get shot out of the sky for no good reason. I like to think that in the event that there is really a potential threat, the Air Force guys will be able to identify it and take more severe action.
As for the pilot in command of the C-150, I think he deserves to have some severe FAA actions taken against him. (I also think that the Homeland Security forces did the right thing by letting the FAA handle it.) That pilot (?) gives all good, responsible pilots a bad name by doing something that inexcusable.
 
// ignore the bad you just put the emphasis on what is good.

Like building planes. That said, I'm in the Midwest. Things are pretty good out here in flyover country. Nobody gives a rip about us and there's nothing to attack.

New York and Washington are different stories for obvious reasons. There if someone tells someone that there's a plane heading their way, they don't know if it's a C-150 or a 747, and they don't want to wait to find out.

When I covered the political conventions this year, I have to tell you, I knew that eveyrone there had a big target on their backs. And yet, there they were.

I went up to Bunker Hill during the Dem convention to a ceremony to honor veterans. There, with absolutely no protection that could save them, sat the entire Democratic leadership of this nation.

So, yeah, I know the politicians and the East Coast folks are easy targets for the rest of us. But I'll tell you what. They actually DO put themselves on the line just like we're suggesting.

And as for the people. Well, I'll tell you what I said to my son on 9/11. "They picked the wrong city to mess with." New Yorkers got up, dusted the crap and soot off, and went to work. And every day, they get in elevators and go right back up to tall buildings that make great targets.

You want good. Man, I have to tell you. That's some serious good.

BC
 
Attn: This is your captain speaking....

This thread has sure gathered steam since this morning.:rolleyes: This might be a good time for me to gently remind everyone of the *rules* for using this forum: http://www.vansairforce.net/rules.htm. We're kinda pushing the envelope on the 'about RVs within reason' one, huh?;) .

That is all... Carry on... Have a nice night...
 
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not an instructor...

Not that it makes that much of a difference, but according to the FAA's Airman database, the PIC of the C-150 only holds a private SEL certificate which was issued in 1969...and not a CFI certificate. Searching for the other person (student pilot?) was unsuccessful...maybe he hasn't completed a medical yet?

So much for accurate media reporting...

-Jim
 
Once again, is anybody concerned that while authorities were deciding whether to kill two bumbling pilots and rain flaming debris onto panic stricken taxpayers, the president wasn't even notified? Did they think he wouldn't want to be bothered? What the heck is going on here?! Oh, and RV's are really cool :)

Steve Zicree
 
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