jj_jetmech

Well Known Member
Prior to making this post I have done hours of research on VAF and talked to vendors regarding cowlings in preparation to ordering my Finish kit.

Is the James cowl really faster?

I did see a few posts where a few have performed a face lift to the James cowl but other performance changes or mods were made at the same time.

To me the James cowl looks better than the Van's but not enough better if there is no performance gain.
 
I switched to the James cowl when I replaced my O-290-D2 with an ECi O-360.

You are right, with engine swap, it is impossible for me to tell if there was any performance change.

I went with the James cowl for two reason, it looks better (IMHO) and because the cost difference was only $50.

It is a bit more work but nothing you can't overcome.

Oh, and it looks faster just sitting on the ground.
 
I don't have the exact numbers, but here's evidence supporting the James cowl being faster:

Our airport was hit by a tornado in 2011. Several planes were damaged. My friend's RV-6 took a hit to the wings, cowl, etc. When he rebuilt the plane, he intentionally changed two items: new Van's pressure recovery wheel pants and a new Sam James cowl. Everything else stayed the same, or as closely as reasonably possible. (For example, the new paint was shinier than the old paint, etc...)

He gained at least 10knots. IIRC, he then had to repitch the prop slightly. When it was all said and done, I had to use 1-2" more manifold pressure to stay with him.

It convinced me. I bought a Sam James cowl for my RV-6 project.

Sam should buy me a beer, but other than that, I am not affiliated with Sam Jame's company in any way. :rolleyes:
 
I just got off the phone with Will James, I think I owe him a beer! He was patient and answered all my questions... Decision made James cowl it is...

Thanks for the replies!

Sam should buy me a beer, but other than that, I am not affiliated with Sam Jame's company in any way. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
 
Somone on here documented the switch to the SJ , somthing like 10 Kt faster.
 
Somone on here documented the switch to the SJ , somthing like 10 Kt faster.

As I recall, Isn't it the James plenum that accounts for the majority (if not all) of the this reported speed gain? Plenums can be added to a stand Vans cowl too.

Bevan
 
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As I recall, Isn't it the James plenum that accounts for the majority (if not all) of the this reported speed gain?

No. A plenum is a sealing device. At best, it contributes to speed gain only indirectly, by reducing the total mass flow necessary to cool a given installation.
 
As I recall, Isn't it the James plenum that accounts for the majority (if not all) of the this reported speed gain? Plenums can be added to a stand Vans cowl too.

Bevan

I have a plenum on my 8, and will go back to standard baffles at some point I think. It really cuts down on the volume of air and I'm concerned the CHTs will be hotter than I'd like come summer. FWIW.
 
I have a plenum on my 8, and will go back to standard baffles at some point I think. It really cuts down on the volume of air and I'm concerned the CHTs will be hotter than I'd like come summer. FWIW.

The plenum itself is unlikely to reduce cooling mass passing through the fins, only leakage...mass flow that was doing nothing but increasing drag.

It is possible that a poor inlet design (the manner of coupling the fixed inlet opening to the moving plenum, and the internal shape immediately after) could contribute to poor static pressure.
 
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When we swapped from original to pressure recovery wheel pants on the RV-6, the net gain in speed was 6 knots (if I recall correctly)...so you can figure out the gain from the addition of those and the SJ cowl by subtracting the difference...plus or minus a few knots.
 
I have the SJ cowl and wheel pants. I have not installed the cowl but at least it is not pink. The wheel pants are quite a bit less bulbus so I would think they create less drag.
 
I have the SJ cowl and wheel pants. I have not installed the cowl but at least it is not pink. The wheel pants are quite a bit less bulbus so I would think they create less drag.

Not necessarily true. It is possible the sharp edges could cause more drag. I really don't know but I'm sure someone has made the change and can verify if there is a difference between the two wheel pants.
 
The plenum itself is unlikely to reduce cooling mass passing through the fins, only leakage...mass flow that was doing nothing but increasing drag.

It is possible that a poor inlet design (the manner of coupling the fixed inlet opening to the moving plenum, and the internal shape immediately after) could contribute to poor static pressure.

I'll try and get pics for you.
 
Not necessarily true. It is possible the sharp edges could cause more drag. I really don't know but I'm sure someone has made the change and can verify if there is a difference between the two wheel pants.

See my post #13 above yours Bill
 
No. A plenum is a sealing device. At best, it contributes to speed gain only indirectly, by reducing the total mass flow necessary to cool a given installation.

Hi Dan,

Its my understanding that the James Cowl without a plenum would not yield the full benefit or performance gain. Reducing overall inlet area and shape is only half the equation its also how the air is controlled after entering the inlet? You could use a plenum on a Vans cowl but wouldn't you just exacerbate the aerodynamic issues and problems with a rectangle inlet versus a round inlet?:confused:

I see you have spent a lot of time on this topic I am interested in your opinion. First do you think the SJ cowl and plenum for a 7 is a good option to the Vans cowl when considering possible performance gains?

Also why does a Vans top cowl, in some cases, bulge or pillow when seen from the cockpit in fast cruise flight?
 
Paul,

I am confused (normal state for me), did you change from the old style Van's wheel pants to their new pressure recovery wheel pants? Or did you change to the Sam James wheel pants?

I was addressing Vince's post ( post #3 in this thread) where he talked of a person installing Van's pants and the SJ Cowl, and not knowing the relative contributions of each.

We installed Van's pressure recovery pants and gained the 6 knots.
 
Its my understanding that the James Cowl without a plenum would not yield the full benefit or performance gain.

A plenum cover is a sealing device. It eliminates the leakage of traditional rubber flap seals, which can be significant. NASA Report CR3405 suggests that in typical GA cooling systems with flap seals, as much as 55% of the air passing through the cowl bypasses the engine cylinder fins entirely. Put another way, bypass air (leakage) contributes little to cooling while being responsible for as much as 55% of the cooling drag slowing the old rental dog.

Yes, it is possible to install a really good set of flap seals and have far less than 55% leakage. The average RV install does much better. I don't think it is possible to equal a plenum lid.

Ok, so ditch the flap seals, install a lid over the engine, and couple the enclosed plenum volume to the intakes. We can assume bypass leakage is reduced to zero, but that doesn't mean the system is now flowing 55% less total cooling mass. There may indeed be some reduction in mass flow, but for the most part we merely re-routed the air, forcing it to take a path between fins where it does some good by picking up heat.

Here's the point; adding the plenum lid does not by itself reduce cooling drag. To do that we must reduce total mass flow and/or reduce momentum loss. The lid made the system more efficient, so we can, by some additional change, reduce total mass and still meet the engine's cooling requirement.

Reducing overall inlet area and shape is only half the equation its also how the air is controlled after entering the inlet? You could use a plenum on a Vans cowl but wouldn't you just exacerbate the aerodynamic issues and problems with a rectangle inlet versus a round inlet?:confused:

We can obtain an identical conversion of dynamic pressure to static pressure with either a small area inlet or a large area inlet. It is more challenging with the small area inlet, as interior ducting detail becomes important. The large area inlet is non-critical; it needs nothing inside the opening (look at an Acclaim or a Cessna TTx). Either way, the inlet choice has little to do with controlling mass flow. The exit area is the system throttle.

First do you think the SJ cowl and plenum for a 7 is a good option to the Vans cowl when considering possible performance gains?

As others have noted, speed gain directly attributable to the James cowl is rarely quantified with precision.

As for cooling parameters, two partners and I made quite a few accurate measurements of my custom setup, a Vans cowl with a variable exit, and a shorty James cowl. We agreed not to discuss details at this time, as any such effort suffers from a classic small sample problem. I can tell you a stock Vans RV-8 cowl inlet performs very well.

Also why does a Vans top cowl, in some cases, bulge or pillow when seen from the cockpit in fast cruise flight?

Internal pressure is higher than external pressure. At 165 knots TAS and 5000 feet, on a standard day, the available dynamic pressure is 79 lbs per sq foot. By measurement, my own cowl converts (ballpark) 75% of it to increased static pressure in the upper plenum....let's call it 60 lbs/sqft, the pressure that drives mass through the system. It drops maybe half that pressure across the engine fins (depends mostly on fin spacing, baffle fit, and exit size), leaving in this example 30 lbs per sq foot to inflate the cowl like a balloon. Mostly we see it in bulges along the firewall seam, and a bulging oil door. This lower plenum pressure is highly desirable, as it can be used to increase exit velocity.
 
Dan, I love the way you explain things, so.......the SJ cowl with plenum should be faster with better cooling, right? I hope so, I have one in my living room.....:D
 
I believe that a properly built Vans plenum system will work just as well as the the other plenum systems. I think that the perceived speed increase is directly proportionate to the added cost factor.
 
Dan,
After some more thorough familiarization with the performance of my new steed, I'm undecided now. It (the plenum) may be doing quite well after all.

Today at 10.5k
28F
20" at WOT
2400rpm
Leaned to 9.0 gph
175 knots TAS
hottest CHT was 330, coolest was 295
Oil I was struggling to get above 175, had the shutter on the cooler fully closed.

I'll try and get some screen grabs of the skyview.

http://i61.tinypic.com/nye0ci.jpg
 
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The bulging top cowl...

When we install a .093" ss hinge pin made for a .120" hinge, there is .027" of our bulge. Then add wear.
 
Dan,
After some more thorough familiarization with the performance of my new steed, I'm undecided now. It (the plenum) may be doing quite well after all.

Those cruise numbers say you would benefit from some method of closing down the exit area after you're established at altitude. No surprise; too much cooling in cruise is true of any fixed exit area large enough to cool the engine at full power and low airspeed, i.e. in climb.

Don't change anything right now. Report back after the atmosphere gets hot in your part of the world. Let's see a screen grab near the top of a 10K climb. Fly some practical profile like pitch for 120 knots IAS, WOT/2700/full rich for the first 2000 feet, then 120 IAS, WOT/2500 while leaning for best power the rest of the way up.

Looked at the plenum lid photo. Pretty thing, with good edge sealing and a reasonable shape aft of the inlet. I assume you have some simple flap seals attached to the cowl inlet "spigot", overlapping the sheet metal and carbon?
 
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Reducing overall inlet area and shape is only half the equation its also how the air is controlled after entering the inlet?

Jason, specific to your question (and consideration of a typical James cowl), follow the link below and read a good article from Chris Zavatson. Pay particular attention to the three inlet cross section drawings on page 2, and read the section titled "Inlet Size and Efficiency" four or five times.

http://www.n91cz.net/Interesting_Technical_Reports/106-111_BuildingBasics.pdf

Chris elected to build high Vi/Vo inlets, a reasonable choice for his Lancair. The Lancair's prop extension provides the physical length (between the plane of the propeller and the front of the cylinders) to install the necessary internal diffusers. I chose low Vi/Vo inlets, as I wanted to run a BA Hartzell on a 390. A prop extension would have pushed the CG too far forward on an RV-8. The best choice for each revolved around physical factors, not cooling, at least not directly. We both get good pressure recovery.

Chris touches on the primary downside to a high Vi/Vo scheme in his article; it is easy to go wrong with design aft of the inlet plane. Look at the shapes Chris used, then contemplate the physical arrangements seen elsewhere. It is difficult to keep high velocity airflow attached to the wall of a duct with a sudden small radius into a volume, a sharp lip, a ballooned flex coupling, or anything else that might trip it into turbulent flow. Energy wasted in turbulence isn't converted to plenum static pressure.
 
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Just to clarify, I did say that my friend's plane was at least 10 knots faster, probably more. If I find an exact number, I'll post again. Best I can do right now, but it is enough that I am doing the same... SJ cowl and PR pants.
 
Jason, specific to your question (and consideration of a typical James cowl), follow the link below and read a good article from Chris Zavatson. Pay particular attention to the three inlet cross section drawings on page 2, and read the section titled "Inlet Size and Efficiency" four or five times.

http://www.n91cz.net/Interesting_Technical_Reports/106-111_BuildingBasics.pdf

Hi Dan,

I appreciate your detail in answering my questions and providing this link, great article, very helpful.

It all about Mr Bernoulli again...

So Basicallly the more efficient your cowl and plenum combination are the smaller you can make your inlets further reducing cooling drag and go faster. The CHT and oil temp will ultimately tell you how well your doing or did with your setup. It's clear the Vans cowl could work just as well as any with a plenum with a proper transition from the inlet to the plenum. Having said that I think the other cowl gets me closer to what I want out of the box, the round inlet rings will make it simpler to modify if desired or needed.

As for now I gotta get back to riveting my fuse. After all I can't have high oil temps until I get this thing off the saw horses.
 
Looked at the plenum lid photo. Pretty thing, with good edge sealing and a reasonable shape aft of the inlet. I assume you have some simple flap seals attached to the cowl inlet "spigot", overlapping the sheet metal and carbon?

Affirmative.
 
No.

(56789)

What I think Dan wants to say is that it's all about the cowl exit, not about the inlets. More efficient cooling allows for a smaller exit which reduces mass airflow and cowling cross- sectional area and skin friction. The inlet size has minor effects on any of these, although improperly designed internal recovery inlets can make things worse.
 
What I think Dan wants to say is that it's all about the cowl exit, not about the inlets. More efficient cooling allows for a smaller exit which reduces mass airflow and cowling cross- sectional area and skin friction. The inlet size has minor effects on any of these, although improperly designed internal recovery inlets can make things worse.

How could it be all about the exit? It's actually all about the everything.

The goal is to go faster so inlet size does matter... As well as the exit.. I understand that... Just let enough air in to get the engine operating within parameters then get rid of it... How is the answer to that NO?

I have Been to the Reno Air races I think 15 times crewed a team for 5 just look at Formula 1, Biplane and sport. I have never seen a crew show up with bigger inlets... Maybe if the cowling was empty that could work but that wouldn't be very fast.... Check out race 62 Phantom pretty interesting cowl and plenum... Not exactly Cherokee inlets.... I'm pretty sure no inlet is fastest!! :D
 
inlet

Actually a big intlet with a fanjet in it would be fastest.
 
How could it be all about the exit? It's actually all about the everything.

The goal is to go faster so inlet size does matter... As well as the exit.. I understand that... Just let enough air in to get the engine operating within parameters then get rid of it... How is the answer to that NO?

I have Been to the Reno Air races I think 15 times crewed a team for 5 just look at Formula 1, Biplane and sport. I have never seen a crew show up with bigger inlets... Maybe if the cowling was empty that could work but that wouldn't be very fast.... Check out race 62 Phantom pretty interesting cowl and plenum... Not exactly Cherokee inlets.... I'm pretty sure no inlet is fastest!! :D

Jason,
Here is a photo of the business end of Dan's 8 that I took at a recent fly-in, showing his modified Van's cowl with round inlets and adjustable exit. The inlets are larger than SJ's, yet Dan's 8 is a real lightning bolt. It really is all about the exit.

5x2a1z.jpg
 
Sam James cowl is working for me.

Good cruise numbers, I flight plan for 178kts and 8.5gph. Aurora is reasonably fast for a parallel valved 360 at 190kts at 8000'DA. once I got everything working together.


Looks good in the air and on the ground.

 
Jason,
Here is a photo of the business end of Dan's 8 that I took at a recent fly-in, showing his modified Van's cowl with round inlets and adjustable exit. The inlets are larger than SJ's, yet Dan's 8 is a real lightning bolt. It really is all about the exit.

5x2a1z.jpg

Good looking bird! I have a friend building a fast back with a modified vans cowl to round inlets,I like that config... Im curious about Dan's cowl flap or adjustable exit are there pics of that somewhere?

Thanks
 
The goal is to go faster so inlet size does matter... As well as the exit.. I understand that... Just let enough air in to get the engine operating within parameters then get rid of it... How is the answer to that NO?

You're a smart guy. Sometimes smart people need to be given a tool, then allowed to reason for themselves.

Consider this statement from an accepted reference, McCormick's Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics:

6oinva.jpg


Translated, it says:

drag = mass (freestream velocity less ultimate velocity)

or

Cooling Drag = Cooling Mass x Loss of Momentum

The statement tells you that to reduce cooling drag (and go faster) you must
reduce the amount of cooling mass (lbs of air) flowing through the system, and/or cause it to exit the system as close to freestream velocity as possible, i.e. with very little velocity loss.

Your task is to reason a system design that maximizes both goals.

Let me get you started. Yes, you can control the quantity of mass admitted to the system with inlet size...but (1) how will you cause that mass to exit at high velocity, and (2) how will you vary the amount of mass to match conditions, i.e. full power climb, full power low level flight, and cruise power at altitude?
 
For my -10?

Dan, I've been wanting to apply these ideas to my -10 for quite a while now. Could I simply leave the Van's inlets and accomplish MOST speed increases with the exit? Perhaps some internal changes like a rounded firewall bottom?

Best,
 
OK I will bite.
If we reduce the exit, how much is gained by decrease of mass airflow and how much is gained by increase of outlet velocity?
If outlet velocity increase (jet effect) doesn't get us that much would we not be better off reducing mass at the inlet? Reducing the inlet would reduce form drag (barn door effect). Would this not also reduce friction drag that is internal to the cowl?
Reducing the exit simply increases velocity by increasing restriction (static pressure).
Now if the exit velocity helps that much then "never mind". (in my best Gilda Radner voice)
 
Dan, I've been wanting to apply these ideas to my -10 for quite a while now. Could I simply leave the Van's inlets and accomplish MOST speed increases with the exit? Perhaps some internal changes like a rounded firewall bottom?

If the 10 cowl responds like the 8 cowl, yes. Ken posted that data.
 
I get that the exit geometry is critical to get the velocity close to original freestream, but I'm wondering about the inlets. You have to size the inlets large enough to give sufficient flow during high demand (high power hard climb), and that means that at cruise they are too large and you'll end up either swallowing more air than you need, or building up back pressure in the plenum and spilling that air out over the lip of the inlet. How much drag is represented by that spillage? Or do we even care to quantify it, since we may not be able to do anything about it? Is it reasonable to think you may want to accept some higher in-cowl cooling drag to avoid inlet-spillage which would be (in my mind anyway) a higher per-mass drag, since the momentum loss is essentially 100%? Or is the propwash in this area so disturbing that it really gets hidden in the noise?
 
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I'm wondering about the inlets. You have to size the inlets large enough to give sufficient flow during high demand (high power hard climb), and that means that at cruise they are too large and you'll end up either swallowing more air than you need, or building up back pressure in the plenum and spilling that air out over the lip of the inlet. How much drag is represented by that spillage?

Somewhere in a deep and dark corner of my memory, I seem to remember that the drag from any spillage is way less of an issue than folks would seem to think.-------and in some cases actually help a bit. Remember this is only one factor in the total drag of the cooling system.

But, then my mind is getting older than the rest of me----except possibly my knees:rolleyes:
 
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7

Your task is to reason a system design that maximizes both goals.

7

Thanks Dan... Wait a second did you just give me homework? This is fun stuff...

I'm committed to my cowl choice now but you really have me thinking Ill build my own plenum and choose the inlet ring size and exit later as I learn more.

I have a friend on his second 8 he is planning to build his plenum and has already modified his Vans cowl and machined his own inlet rings. Ill have to see what size he chose and why. He doesn't know it yet but I'm planning a collaboration with him in this area..

Would you share pics of your plenum and exit?

Thanks
 
Thanks Dan... Wait a second did you just give me homework? This is fun stuff...

I'm committed to my cowl choice now but you really have me thinking Ill build my own plenum and choose the inlet ring size and exit later as I learn more.

I have a friend on his second 8 he is planning to build his plenum and has already modified his Vans cowl and machined his own inlet rings. Ill have to see what size he chose and why. He doesn't know it yet but I'm planning a collaboration with him in this area..

Would you share pics of your plenum and exit?

Thanks

With all these questions you have about cowls and cooling, there are many excellent posts by DanH and others in this discussion. One that you should read is by Alan Judy. Catch it now and capture the remaining photos before the links expire.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=12633&highlight=Cowling+mods

I saw Alans' 6 some years ago when he had the cowl off and my son and I had a long conversation with him. He keeps a little black book of all performance comparisons. I did not know the significance of what I had seen until later.
 
Inlet size: Consider these four simple bodies with identical cooling passages and exits.

347gxfl.jpg


A and B are low Vi/Vo inlets (inlet velocity divided by freestream velocity = ratio). C and D are high Vi/Vo inlets.

In terms of cooling, all four inlets perform the same. They all flow the same mass and slow it to the same internal velocity just prior to the heat exchanger body, trading dynamic pressure for static pressure. (Iimagine cylinder fins or a radiator core at the end of the streamlines). A and B slow the flow externally, so velocity through the inlet is slow. C and D do it internally; flow through the inlet is near to or even higher than freestream. The high velocity means some loss due to internal drag, as compared to the near-frictionless external diffusion. With all else equal, C and D would exhibit more cooling drag, i.e more momentum loss.

A and B require less physical distance between the plane of the inlet opening and the plane of the exchanger. The cowl can be shorter. The shape of the duct inside the entrance is non-critical. If entrance velocity is slow enough, it doesn't even need a duct.

C and D require more physical distance between the inlet and the exchanger, as it needs an appropriate diverging duct for best performance. The internal duct cannot diverge too quickly without risking flow separation. If the flow separates into turbulence, the energy in the dynamic flow is wasted, and the resulting static pressure is reduced. In our application, the duct length requirement dictates an extended propeller hub.

Now let's consider external drag. Body A is a mess. The body shape did not allow the flow to remain attached at the inlet lip. It's much the same separation problem a high Vi/Vo inlet would have internally if the duct diverged too quickly. The result here is turbulent flow over much of the body. Drag is high.

Good lip shape means flow remains attached to the outside of Body B, at a cost of some greater frontal area. (Take a good look at at the side profile of your standard Vans inlet.)

Body C is our F1 Reno Racer example. The engine is packaged very tightly, as is the sole occupant, so overall frontal area is at an absolute minimum. There is no downside to a prop extension, so the design choice is to stretch out the cowl, use the high Vi/Vo inlet, and keep the cowl skinny.

Body D is a high Vi/Vo inlet, with prop extension and ductwork, grafted on a body where overall frontal area was driven by the size and shape of the engine and/or passenger compartment. External drag will be similar to B, or a little better. The difference would not be due to the inlets or the external shape immediately adjacent to the inlets, but rather the less blunt portions of the cowl inboard of the inlets.

I'm just a student working toward intern; always to happy to hear from the pros.

...building up back pressure in the plenum and spilling that air out over the lip of the inlet. How much drag is represented by that spillage? Or do we even care to quantify it, since we may not be able to do anything about it?

That would be body A above. It's been quantified (NACA-TR-1038, Fig 12), and the answer to to pay attention to external cowl shape in the vicinity of the inlet, not the actual size of the inlet. Short version: being well shaped, bodies B, C, and D above would all maintain a reasonable level of attached flow when operating above roughly 0.3 Vi/Vo, and as you describe, the adverse external pressure outside the lip is further reduced as inlet flow is increased (i.e. exit area is increased, allowing more velocity through the fixed inlet).
 
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What a great set of illustrations. Very similar to some basic fluid dynamics texts. For the laymen just reading along, also keep in mind that this isn't just a vertical section, but also applies all the way around each and every section to the horizontal. Boy, then the ideal gets a whole lot more complicated. See how I said that without muddying the waters with real math :).
 
Seeing Dan's illustrations gave me an idea which may be either ridiculous or not. We have discussed exhaust augmentation of the cooling flow but has there been any trial of ram air augmentation.

What I envision is a high vi/vo tube running from an external inlet on the lower cowl and passing straight through to the cowl exit. The tube would have inlets along its length to pick up air from the inside of the cowl as it accelerates and gives a velocity boost to the cooling flow as it exits the cowl

What do you think?

Glenn Wilkinson