I can't say if we will need to file or not. The biggest thing I can say is not yet. The date is still a ways off and there is a lot of info left to come out from both Van's and the Court. I believe they have another hearing tomorrow.
This is my opinion as well. More information will become available after tomorrow's hearing, and especially after the Jan. 12 meeting of the creditors. And if you are a customer that has deposits tied up, then you need to understand what's being offered to you in exchange for you not filing a proof of claim. There's no benefit to filing a proof of claim before the deadline. I would just start thinking about what claims you may have and then make a decision closer to the deadline.
believe they have another hearing tomorrow.
This is my opinion as well. More information will become available after tomorrow's hearing,
Well the hearings tomorrow are crucial. If Van's loses their motions to use cash collateral then they cannot continue business. Similar with the motion to obtain credit.
I suspect the judge will have many questions about the proposed budget, Van's estimations of number of customers accepting new contracts vs becoming claimants, how they will be handling engine deposits, etc.
I would be asking a bankruptcy attorney this:
If I file now, do I benefit by getting on the list faster so I'm higher up, giving me a better chance at getting something when it comes to sending out checks and amounts?
If I file now, can I retract the filing and accept another offer in the future?
I am not a "bankruptcy attorney" but am an attorney, and have some experience making claims in bankruptcy on behalf of clients.
No, you do not get a better position by filing a proof of claim sooner. All of the claims are placed into particular categories ("priority" vs. "secured" vs. "unsecured" etc) within the bankruptcy plan Vans will file. Claims are treated equally as to their particular category in the plan. I am personally feeling good about the fact that they've properly identified -- and intend to reflect in their plan -- that a certain amount of customer deposits are entitled to "priority" status and the remainder is "unsecured."Priority claims generally will be paid first (and in full assuming there's enough money), and unsecured claims will be paid last (and only partially). You will be able to know how much of a haircut you're taking on the unsecured portion of your claim when Vans files its plan.
That said, yes, you can file a proof of claim and then withdraw it. But it might just be a waste of your time. I anticipate that Vans will finalize and file their plan soon after the 1/30/24 deadline they've set on the order modifications (so that they can then categorize everyone's deposits on the plan). If they don't file a plan which includes a proposed payout to you (or don't properly categorize your claim), then you still have time before the 2/12/24 deadline to file a proof of claim and/or object to their proposed plan.
I am not a "bankruptcy attorney" but am an attorney, and have some experience making claims in bankruptcy on behalf of clients.
No, you do not get a better position by filing a proof of claim sooner. All of the claims are placed into particular categories ("priority" vs. "secured" vs. "unsecured" etc) within the bankruptcy plan Vans will file. Claims are treated equally as to their particular category in the plan. I am personally feeling good about the fact that they've properly identified -- and intend to reflect in their plan -- that a certain amount of customer deposits are entitled to "priority" status and the remainder is "unsecured." Priority claims should be
That said, yes, you can file a proof of claim and then withdraw it. But it might just be a waste of your time. I anticipate that Vans will finalize and file their plan soon after the 1/30/24 deadline they've set on the order modifications (so that they can then categorize everyone's deposits on the plan). If they don't file a plan which includes a proposed payout to you (or don't properly categorize your claim), then you still have time before the 2/12/24 deadline to file a proof of claim and/or object to their proposed plan.
Can we file a claim for the difference of our original contracts and the new contracts?
All of the claims are placed into particular categories ("priority" vs. "secured" vs. "unsecured" etc) within the bankruptcy plan Vans will file.
You don’t have a claim if you agree to the new contract. That’s defeats the entire purpose of what they are doing.
I am not a "bankruptcy attorney" but am an attorney, and have some experience making claims in bankruptcy on behalf of clients.
No, you do not get a better position by filing a proof of claim sooner. All of the claims are placed into particular categories ("priority" vs. "secured" vs. "unsecured" etc) within the bankruptcy plan Vans will file. Claims are treated equally as to their particular category in the plan. I am personally feeling good about the fact that they've properly identified -- and intend to reflect in their plan -- that a certain amount of customer deposits are entitled to "priority" status and the remainder is "unsecured." Priority claims should be
That said, yes, you can file a proof of claim and then withdraw it. But it might just be a waste of your time. I anticipate that Vans will finalize and file their plan soon after the 1/30/24 deadline they've set on the order modifications (so that they can then categorize everyone's deposits on the plan). If they don't file a plan which includes a proposed payout to you (or don't properly categorize your claim), then you still have time before the 2/12/24 deadline to file a proof of claim and/or object to their proposed plan.
I do not live in the US and I’m not at all familiar with the Chapter 11 procedure and, if I may, I would like to ask you some questions.
I have committed about 13 thousand dollars in orders for Fuselage QB, Wing QB and finished kit and another 3 thousand that correspond to an empennage kit purchased a long time ago and that do not fall within this process, but that I will lose if I reject the proposal that Vans informed me about.
Due to the increase in costs and the impossibility of knowing the delivery dates of the kits, I am going to make the difficult decision to reject the proposal. So, in relation to the process described in this option I have many doubts and I hope you can clarify the following questions, please.
1- About filing a bankruptcy claim:
•What does it mean?
• Will it be enough to opt out of reordering to initiate the filing a bankruptcy claim, or will I have to do some additional paperwork with another organization?
2- About the first $3,350 of the total of all your deposits could be submitted under “priority claim” status:
• Under this concept, is it possible to get a refund for this amount of money?
• If so, is there an estimated time by law?
3- And about the balance of your deposits presented under the status of “general unsecured claim”.
• Under this concept is there any possibility a refound the rest of the money?
I hope you can answer my question. And I will be very grateful for your explanation.
I do not live in the US and I’m not at all familiar with the Chapter 11 procedure and, if I may, I would like to ask you some questions.
I have committed about 13 thousand dollars in orders for Fuselage QB, Wing QB and finished kit and another 3 thousand that correspond to an empennage kit purchased a long time ago and that do not fall within this process, but that I will lose if I reject the proposal that Vans informed me about.
Due to the increase in costs and the impossibility of knowing the delivery dates of the kits, I am going to make the difficult decision to reject the proposal. So, in relation to the process described in this option I have many doubts and I hope you can clarify the following questions, please.
1- About filing a bankruptcy claim:
•What does it mean?
• Will it be enough to opt out of reordering to initiate the filing a bankruptcy claim, or will I have to do some additional paperwork with another organization?
2- About the first $3,350 of the total of all your deposits could be submitted under “priority claim” status:
• Under this concept, is it possible to get a refund for this amount of money?
• If so, is there an estimated time by law?
3- And about the balance of your deposits presented under the status of “general unsecured claim”.
• Under this concept is there any possibility a refound the rest of the money?
I hope you can answer my question. And I will be very grateful for your explanation.
First sorry you do have to throw in the towel. RV's are really great airplanes.
I am not a lawyer and I recommend you talk to one as getting legal advice on a bulletin board is dangerous. The Oregon bar association does have a referral service on their website.
My understanding is that you have to file a claim. The claim can be filed on line here:
https://cases.creditorinfo.com/vansaircraft/documents/docket
It allows you to specify the 3350$ portion on the claims form.
How much if anything you might get for either the priority or any other claim will be up to the court. It is likely to take a while till that is all sorted out and you get answers to that question. In some bankruptcy cases it takes years. I have no idea if this will be quicker here.
Filing deadline is 2/12/2024. So you do have some time to file but not forever.
Hope that helps.
Oliver
Have you thought about changing to slow build? Might be a better option than losing your money.
Yes it is an option, I thought about it.
But I don't want to risk any more money with Vans Aircraft and I don't have time to wait any longer to build a plane to fly.
I am 63 years old
I know what their intentions are but where am I specifically giving up the claim in the legalese gobbledygook I was sent to sign?
Looking at the summary of the claims already filed it seems a lot of people miscategorize this. Only saw one claim which had it split that way .... .
So for those of us that have pending orders and have paid a deposit, do we still need to file a claim even if we are planning to accept Van's modified price and terms for our order?
If the answer is no, are there any reasons not to file a claim in this case?
Please don't throw rocks...I'm NOT an attorney, and know nothing about bankruptcy...Pardon me for asking such a rudimentary question.
I have a flying 7A, and ALL the kits to complete my 12iS..paid for, and in my possession....with no issues for LCP, etc.
Got my letter and I'm confused by the meaning of "You may also have experienced issues with other parts or devices and MAY DO SO IN THE FUTURE"...also ..."involving Debtor, either now existing or ARISING THE FUTURE..."
So...Does this mean if I don't file a claim as a future "potential" debtor (even though Van's owes me nothing now), I'm giving up my rights to any future claims for some unforeseen issue with parts, etc. that Van's may uncover down the road...?
Lord, I hope that question makes sense to someone...
So I am inclined to do nothing ... .
Oliver
Please don't throw rocks...I'm NOT an attorney, and know nothing about bankruptcy...Pardon me for asking such a rudimentary question.
I have a flying 7A, and ALL the kits to complete my 12iS..paid for, and in my possession....with no issues for LCP, etc.
Got my letter and I'm confused by the meaning of "You may also have experienced issues with other parts or devices and MAY DO SO IN THE FUTURE"...also ..."involving Debtor, either now existing or ARISING THE FUTURE..."
So...Does this mean if I don't file a claim as a future "potential" debtor (even though Van's owes me nothing now), I'm giving up my rights to any future claims for some unforeseen issue with parts, etc. that Van's may uncover down the road...?
Lord, I hope that question makes sense to someone...
Have you thought about changing to slow build? Might be a better option than losing your money.
Unfortunately that's not possible - I spoke to Greg at Vans on 20-12-2023 and he confirmed to me that they cant allow changes to the ordered contracts as it violates the rules of chapter 11
Ironic… can’t change a contract in chapter 11, yet here we are “changing” contracts
It would be nice if they would say exactly which rule of chapter 11 would be violated by the parties to a contract agreeing to change the deliverable product at the same time as they're agreeing to change the price. This is where talking to a lawyer who specializes in bankruptcy law would be helpful.
One of the first court orders that Vans obtained immediately after filing bankruptcy says that all order contracts can be rejected “unless otherwise agreed.” So basically they are saying that they are not agreeing to modify contracts to change the deliverable product. Here’s the court order if you want to follow procedures for objecting to Vans rejecting your contract, but it’s not going to make them agree to change the contract in the way you want: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.orb.528157/gov.uscourts.orb.528157.32.0.pdf
No, it doesn't force them to agree to change the contract, but to me it reads as though they can. And why wouldn't they want to accept a modified contract if it definitely means more proceeds from selling another kit? After all, they're goal is to continue to sell kits (at a new, profitable price.)
I plan to reach out to an AOPA attorney next week since it’s included in the pilot protection services I already pay for.
They can agree but they just don’t want to because they get to keep the prior deposit amount exceeding $3350 on the existing kit (which they already spent on operating expenses BTW). Vans pays it back over 3-5 years (and possibly for a reduced amount). Then Vans gets you to pay a higher price when you make a completely new order since you can’t modify the old order. So yeah, definitely better outcome for Vans financially when customers effectively loan them money at 0% interest rate, the owner gets paid a 10% interest rate on money he paid in, and customers continue to commit to new kit orders. It does not appear that a significant amount of customers object to that outcome for Vans to change course on its plan.
I would think that Van's would be eager to convert QB orders to SB. Wouldn't converting an order to SB generate a profit much sooner? Driving away a potential builder just to keep the deposit they've already spent doesn't help them reach their goal of profitability, IMO.
Does anyone knows if those that have fully paid the QB have to sign the extra price increase? It is not that we have locked a deposit, we fully paid for it and they were supposed to be shipped by now. Even if we sign for the extra price, the price might still increase before shipment.
Every existing 'open' order with vans pre-petition is cancelled...without exception.
Is this stated in any of the bankruptcy documents we have access to? If so, does anyone know which one?
Thanks,
This was already posted earlier in the thread:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.orb.528157/gov.uscourts.orb.528157.32.0.pdf
Note that the order does not only apply to deposits but ALL Kit and Aircraft Contracts.
Oliver
Vans is obligated to fix those QB kits are they not?