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Tailwheel Upgrade

N130WN

N130WN

Well Known Member
In the quest more better TW clearance, I'm considering changing out my tailwheel to a homebuilder's special #6126

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/homebuilder_tailwheel.php

or the Bell Special when they are available

http://www.vansairforce.net/buildermodifications/tailwheel/Tailwheel_DougBell.htm

The Homebuilder's Special (and maybe the Bell too?) come undrilled. How would I match drill the new tw to the existing holes in the tw spring?

Thanks.

doublefork.jpg
RV-Pic's-001_small.jpg
 
Larry,

That is an interesting question as I plan on doing the same thing. I expect that you could measure as close as possible and drill through one side using a small dril and slowly increase the size until the outer hole touches one side of the inner hole, then use a round file to enlarge the outer hole to match the inner hole. The you could drill through the other side. I would go from one side on one hole and the other side for the other hole, that way each side would have one hole that matched perfectly. This should get it close enough that the wheel could not rotate on the rod.

Does the ACS tailwheel fit the Van's tailwheel spring rod properly?
 
I recently installed one of the wheels from ACS, although I bought it from the supplier at a substantial savings. ($230 vs. $303 from AC$). The company is located in Ojai, CA and they don't have a web site. Maybe the CA guys know who I'm talking about.

The wheel is real sturdy, a little bit larger than the Van's wheel, but has sealed bearings, and better ground clearance. Since it sits a little higher than the stock wheel, I get a little bit better look over the nose.
 
match drilling holes

Larry,
I replaced my tailspring last year and had to redrill it into the fuselage, so I could only see one side. I used a dowel rod to extend the hole alignment down where I drew a line on two heavy boxs sitting next to and under the elevated tail. I used the lines to align the drill bit to keep it as close as possible. It turned out pretty good actually.
Another untested idea:
You could remove your tail spring and jig it in a drill press, align the bit with the existing hole and then slip the wheel assembly over the spring and, after aligning it with the perpenticular marks you put on the spring before you removed it, you drill the holes in the new wheel assembly.
Another Idea untested:
Leave the tail spring installed, mark alignment lines under the spring and beside it for alignment guides in the first scenario.
Tips: sharp bits with oil, go slow, have helper for second set of eyes for alignment.
Good luck,
I like the tailwheel design you showed to keep from hanging up on edges of things, like the ramp edges. I'm still happy about changing from the old chains and standard tailwheel to the full castoring and tail link!
Bob Martin
RV-6
Louisa, VA
 
Here's how I match drilled a new tailwheel on my RV6.
Slide the new tailwheel onto the spring just up to the first hole, align and mark the longitudinal line on the side of the tailwheel spring housing.
Make a measurement down to where that bottom hole should be and drill it slightly undersize, on one side of the tailwheel housing only.
Put the tailwheel back on the spring and line up the new hole on the tailwheel with the hole on the spring. Drill all the way through....now you have your first hole.
In my case, I just measured the distance to the next hole and repeated the above steps and it came out perfect. (Remember to drill the hole undersize so you get some wiggle room.)
Once you get the first hole drilled, you could use various methods to line up the second hole, including using a piece of aluminum, or something, to make a template out of, but I found that unnecessary.
Good luck.
 
Match drilling tail wheel spring

Larry,
You could also try using an old R/C modeling trick: Take a strip of cardboard, about 2" wide x 12" or so long should do, and lay it along the spring rod with one end flush to the tail wheel end of the spring rod (covering the existing holes). Tape the other end of the strip securly to the spring rod, and mark where your existing holes are located on the cardboard strip (magic marker or push a nail through to make a hole). Lightly bend (do not crease) the cardboard out of the way, slip the new tailwheel assembly in place, make sure it is properly aligned, and lay the cardboard back down in place. You now know exactly where the existing holes are, and you should be able to match drill with no problem. Start with a small hole and enlarge as needed, but assuming your existing holes are true and perpendicular to the axis of the rod you should be able to get a true match without removing the spring rod from the airplane. I use this tip all the time on my R/C fiberglass cowls for locating needle valve holes and such.

Best of luck,
 
Replacement Tailwheel

N130WN said:
Thanks for all the good suggestions. I think I'll pursue the tw from ACS. ...
Click to expand...
Please keep us posted. I'm very interested in this as well.
 
Light Bulb Moment!

This thread finally explained a wierd incident I had a couple of weeks ago while taxiing out across our "under-construction" airport. I was crossing an area where they had some big heavy steel trench-plates covering some holes. As the tailwheel crossed over the plate, there was this awful noise that seemed to last for about a foot of motion (of the airplane). Me and my passenger (another pilot) were concerned enough that we shut down and inspected things - couldn't see any damage, so we proceeded. But it bugged me about why it wasn't just a sharp "bang" as the tailwheel went up and over the plate.

Now I think that what happened was that the stock tailwheel's yoke probably caught the edge of the plate and dragged it a short distance before riding up and over the edge - a slow scraping sound from the plate moving, and then the yoke moving over the steel. The trench plate probably is an inch thick, and sitting on an uneven surface, it probably sticks up another inch!

Ouch! I now know why folks want more yoke/ground clearance...Larry, add me to the list of folks interested in your results!

Paul
 
I've been using the Aviation Products tailwheel for about 11 years on my -6. I love it. One fluke is the grease fitting on the swivel bearing won't provide sufficient grease. To properly grease it you must disassemble it, clean it, grease it and reassemble it. Not a big job, but necessary at annual time.
Mel...DAR
 
Tail wheel

This is a better solution.... My $.02
My new RV 8 has one.
Both of my RV 6s had one and I logged more than 1100 hours with good results.
Mel knows what he is talking about.

JBird
 
To match drill the thing you'll have to take the tail-spring off the plane. Take the old spring over to the drill press and send the drill bit (stopped) through the hole. While it's there, fix the tail spring in this position using whatever clamp/jig/fixture you can devise. Retract the drill, slip on the new swivel assembly, poke the new hole. Done deal.
 
Tailwheel Testimonial. I and two other local RV8 owners have just installed the Aviation Products double fork tailwheel.

Aviation Products, Inc
114 Bryant St.
Ojai, CA 93023
ph/fax (805) 646-6042
(No I'm not selling them)

I have dropped my tailwheel into more than one hidden hole on ramp edges, when taxiing around fly-in etc. We also have some rather old unmaintained military airstrips around with slabs with a darn site more than 2 inch elevation differences. Don't want to hit one of those at 20 knt. If you order, make sure you tell them it's for a Van's RVx. They have different angles and will ream the hole to match your stinger (different than stock bore). I made no effort to pick up the existing holes but milled two new vertical holes and am attaching a saddle with a tiedown ring. Beats having chain around my tailwheel bellcrank. Some of the older RV4s on the field have had the single fork tailwheels for over 10 years with no troubles.
 
I ordered one this morning. Karen asked what it was for and knew all about the special reaming needed, angles, etc. $239.50 and $7 shipping to the other coast. I'll post info on my site when I swap it out.

Frank, do you have pictures of your vertical bolt, tie-down arrangement?
 
N130WN said:
I ordered one this morning. Karen asked what it was for and knew all about the special reaming needed, angles, etc. $239.50 and $7 shipping to the other coast. I'll post info on my site when I swap it out.

Frank, do you have pictures of your vertical bolt, tie-down arrangement?
Click to expand...

No but will put some up in a couple of days. Basically I just took a piece of thin wall (.035 I think) 4130 tube about the same ID as the tailwheel brkt, cut it to length, sliced off a 1/4 round, drilled matching holes to the bracket and welded a ring to it. You can mount it on top or bottom picking up the tailwheel mounting bolts.
 
I had an interesting discussion with Karen at Aviation Products this afternoon. The catalog page that is displayed on the website referenced in an earlier post is a photocopy of the ACS catalog page, and ACS only lists a 10 deg. angle for the rod style spring that Van's uses while I measured the angle of my Van's unit at about 18 deg. Karen told me that they can supply 10, 15 or 20 deg. units. After a discussion with the guy who designed them, I opted for the 20 deg. unit for my RV-8.

If you order this unit you also need to tell them that is is for an RV as Van's uses a .635 diameter spring and Aviation Products will ream out their unit from their standard .625 to .635 for you.

Really nice people and easy to deal with.
 
TW Angles

Thanks for the heads-up on the angle issue.

Jay Pratt - which angle are you using on your RV's?

Thanks,
 
Another note on the Aviation Products tailwheels. The part number for the 6" dual fork tailwheel for a rod tail spring is incorrect in the ACS catalog, so don't just order by part number. Just tell them it is for an RV and they'll know which one you want.

I would also be interested in know what angle those who have installed them used and how it came out installed. When I spoke with them, they seemed surprised that people were asking for the 10 deg. unit, but I expect that was due to the fact that ACS only listed that one. They asked me to measure the angle of my Van's tailwheel as well as verify the rod diameter. I measured 18 deg. and .635" diameter. When Van's copied the Aviation Products unit, they changed the diameter slightly. Since my plane is still under construction, I don't know how close to vertical the unit sits when installed, so I can't measure the optimum angle, only compare with Van's. Since I am putting 6" mains on my 8, I opted for the 20 deg. angle, since the increased size of the mains will change the angle slightly. Obviously the goal is to have the unit as close to vertical as possible with weight in the plane (weight will cause the rod spring to flex a little) so it would be good if someone could verify an actual installation.
 
Bell Tailwheel Comments

I read Larry's original post last night about our tailwheel and ACS's and the install technique...I asked my father to comment on it and thought I would pass it on.
I can assure you all that this design is very sturdy, It is being flown currently by Danny King and it appears from his comments back to us that he feels very good about the design.
I will say that my father had no intention of going into business to produce these for profit. He happens to enjoy helping other builders and if someone is interested he will try to help. He has about 6 done now with more to go and we have a list of several who contacted us.
The ACS model looks very good as well and maybe if I had researched it more, I would have simply ordered one...but pops had designed one for his Acro Sport in the past and loves to tinker.
So, here are his words and a new picture of our unit compared to Van's original showing the clearance difference...
Doug B
Manistee MI

I have been told there is some question about how our tailwheel is used with Van's steering hardware--
You simply remove the top nut and steering hardware on your existing unit, remove Van's tailwheel assy. from the tailspring mounting bracket, slip the Bell post and fork assy. into the tailspring bracket, along with Van's coilspring and square key unit. Transfer your wheel onto the new axle bolt with side spacers in place, torque and key the castle nut and you are finished. Hook up your steering link or chains (Everything works the same) and you are ready to fly.


mikespictailwheel0104vb.jpg
 
How do I get on the list!?

Hello Doug...I was seriously thinking of ordering the ACS tailwheel today, but if you and your Dad happen to have one sitting around waiting to ship...I like the ease of installation! The design looks elegant...

Paul Dye
 
Destructive testing

Has any destructive testing been done? I know, at least by the sound of the last post, you guys aren't too serious about offering these in mass quantity. But I'm curious whether the welded joint between the fork & shaft would be a weak point, and how much force it would take to break the fork free. The contact area between the fork & shaft looks to be minimal.

Just curious.

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (802 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
 
Tailwheel strength

Dan,
The finished product is professionally heli-arc welded. The sample shown is the original protype and is tac welded. Danny King is flying with my tailwheel now as my 8 is hibernating for the winter. We have not destructive tested the unit but Danny tried to beat it up pretty good on the cracks and pavement edges around his field....more so than I ever have.
I'll talk to pops about the strength factors and post mre later.
Doug
 
Ive already ran my Vans one into enough pavement that Id take one of these.
Just tell me how to get one! Almost got stuck once till I whipped the ponies into a swift gallop enough to raise the tail up. I dont like doing that.

This fork looks like it will be enough to handle most off pavement issues I have.
 
Put me on the list!

Doug, Can you please confirm that I'm on your list? I'm still a few months away from flying, but I'd like to get one of these before your dad gets tired of making them! :)
 
glfrdug said:
I read Larry's original post last night about our tailwheel and ACS's and the install technique...I asked my father to comment on it and thought I would pass it on.
I can assure you all that this design is very sturdy, It is being flown currently by Danny King and it appears from his comments back to us that he feels very good about the design.
...
Doug B
Click to expand...

It wasn't my intention to knock your efforts or product, Doug. Hope you didn't take it that way.
 
Larry,
No offense taken at all....I was just trying to explain better. I think all this discussion is very good. Builders should be concerned to make the best decisions that they can.
Doug
 
I received an Aviation Products tailwheel today. Beautiful work. It slid right on the tail spring perfectly. It gives a much better clearance than the original and I think it is stronger as well.


I think both this unit and Doug Bell's are a lot better than Van's.
 
Doug Bell's Tailwheel

Because of Doug Bell's generosity, I have been flying his tailwheel for about a month now, and I like it very much. As he said, I put it through a functionality test taxiing it off the paved surface and then climbing back up on it again. Van's tailwheel would hang up in the same situation.

One builder was taxiing into a hanger with some speed and ripped out the aft two bulkheads when his tailwheel hung up on the hanger rails. IMHO. Doug's tailwheel would have hopped over the rails and saved this builder a lot of grief.

I was going to weld an angle of steel to Van's tailwheel to allow it to scrape its way up a lip, and hopefully not damage the Doll. A much better solution is to replace it with either Doug's tailwheel (if you can get one), or Spruce and Specialty's home builders tailwheel.
 
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New Pic and Info on "Bell" tail wheel

Gentleman,
This is the newest picture of the "bell" tail wheel. This actually happens to be Danny King's ready to ship and shows a good pic of what you will receive. The fork and post ready to slip in to your current bracket, a new axle bolt and nut as well as a top fiber lock nut.

They can be shipped, unpainted, painted gloss black, or primed only.

I have a list of 32 inquiries to date. 16 of which are flying and the rest are builers. We wanted to get the units to flyers first and builders second.

The cost has been determined to be $185 shipping included as long as it is not out of country...we may have to adjust for that. One of the first is going to Australia and we will need to look into that cost....what a community we have.

The unit as you see it is about 5 oz. heavier than Vans if you compare the two.

Estimated time for delivery will determine about where you are on the list, but Dad is making them about 6 at a time.
The first 6 of 32 are going out this week...the next 6 will be starting, etc...we will do all we can, the best we can, as quickly as time allows.

I will be contacting everyone who is on list in the next couple days to make sure I have it correct and everyone is still interested.
Thanks again for your interest and Dad and I are happy to be able to assist you all in a small way....

completedrvtailwheelkit0260rx.jpg
 
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That's a nice looking unit. I already have the Aviation Products tailwheel so I won't be needing one, but I like what you and your father have done. Nice job!
 
Will the steering bracket from Van's fit? If so, I imagine that the one-sided bracket from the "Jantzi Link" will also fit. Since I have that kit I want to make sure!

If so, Put me on the list!
 
Tail wheel

Put me on the list too.
Does this use a longer axle bolt than the Van's unit?
I looks like it may be wider than Van's and I use a Cessna tow bar.
Thanks
Mark Scoggins
flying -6
 
I love the look of that thing!!! Much better than what I've got. Has anybody got any first hand reports on changes in landing technique required with the slightly higher tail?
 
In this thread I notice about 2-3 different type of tailwheel "upgrades." I too am interested in slightly more ground clearance for my tailwheel (and the improved "over-the-nose" view would be a plus) but are all of these simple upgrades later on or is there anything that needs to be modified where the tailspring mount is riveted onto the tailcone bulkheads? Thanks.
 
Upgrades

alpinelakespilot2000 said:
...are all of these simple upgrades later on or is there anything that needs to be modified where the tailspring mount is riveted onto the tailcone bulkheads?
Click to expand...
Build on. These are things you can swap out after you are flying.
 
Steve,


The Bell tailwheel will take you about 5 minutes to install. No drilling or anything. The Aviation Products tailwheel requires you to drill a hole in the end of the tailspring. It would probalby take 15 minutes to install. It looks like the difference in height is about an inch on either one.
 
Answers on "Bell" Tailwheel Fork

I'll try to answer a few of the last several post's questions.

Yes the Vans stearing arm will fit on it...I actually use the Jantzi Stearing Link and it fits just fine.

Yes, The Axle Bolt is longer as the fork is slightly wider. The new one measures 3 3/16th grip length....an AN6-36 to be exact. There are two spacers included to center the wheel. A nice feature is the improved clearance above and to the sides of the wheel itself so grass does not collect as much.

The landing profile will be slightly different but nothing that I have found worth mentioning, at least in my 8...a 4 may be different. Danny King is currently the only other who has flown with it and he may have some comments on this, if he has noticed anything.

You will sit higher and visibility is quite a bit better...amazing what a few inches will do....I'll leave that one alone, change subject.

Dad is on his second batch of 10 right now and the first 6 should be in the hands of many guys today or tomorrow, except for Australia....not sure how long that one will take to get there.

Thanks and any other questions, I'll be glad to answer.
 
Doug Jr putting dad to work

Dan the Aussie in waiting for my "bell" tail-wheel. I'll give my 2 cents worth ASAP. When the mount arrives it will be the advertised 5 min's before it's on and another 10min's to warm the engine up and go flying. Looking forward to having a goood view, but mainly no more catching on curbs, etc. Vans put aerodynamics before practicality on this one. Doug, you're doing a good job of keeping your dad out of trouble in retirement! :D
 
Bell Tailwheel installed

Got my Bell tailwheel installed. Will fly it in the next couple days. I think it looks GREAT!!!

Thanks Doug Sr. and Jr.!!!!!!


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It works great

You loose a little 3-Pt angle of attack, but gain better over the nose taxi Vis. George
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
You loose a little 3-Pt angle of attack, but gain better over the nose taxi Vis. George
Click to expand...

George,
I didn't know you had this on your airplane? What is a "little" angle of attack and how much over the nose vis do you gain? :rolleyes:
 
Looking for Paul Dye

I am trying to reach Paul Dye....his profile does not have an email address to reach him directly and also no phone number...anyone who has his contact info please email me at [email protected]
Thanks
Doug
 
Crikey, that tail fork's a beauty!

G'day from Aus',
Thanks Doug Sr and Jr. Your tail fork has done the job, a nice finishing touch to an otherwise great aircraft. Now I can actually go places without having to stay on perfect bituman.
The changes to the handling characteristics are minimal, definately no ill effects.
I flew around with some fellow RV8tors the other day and the interest in the fork was all positive, in fact Doug Sr might be getting some more Aussie orders.
Awesome! :)
Dan
 
Doug Bell's Tailwheel Handling report

I have about 15 hours on Doug Bell's tailwheel now. Doug loaned me his prototype for an evaluation. After returning it to Doug, I reinstalled Van's tailwheel for a round trip flight to Bourne Texas. While I didn't notice a big handling change when I first installed Doug's tailwheel, I sure did notice the difference when I changed back. Van's tailwheel is much heaver to steer than Doug" 45 Degree prototype. I believe that Doug told me the production forks will be at 30 degrees or so. Van's tailwheel is at 90 degrees to the steering shaft. What does this all mean? Well Doug's prototype is much easier to steer than Van's (read more sensitive). I really like it that way vs. Van's. The 30 degree production should be a little less sensitive than the prototype and will probably be a good compromise when changing from Van's tailwheel.

If you are a new tailwheel pilot it might be wise to check out on Van's Kit tailwheel, and then switch to Doug's superior handling tailwheel when comfortable with tailwheel flying. In no way am I saying that Doug's tailwheel is hard to handle. It is what you want from an RV, It is responsive!

Of course, you also get the increased safety of better wheel clearance and better over the nose visibility. IMHO Van's tailwheel can damage your rear fuselage bulkheads if you hang up the low clearance tailwheel with any forward speed. As for me, Van's tailwheel fork is permanently retired to the spar parts bin, now that I have installed my own Bell tailwheel in the Doll.
 
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Bell Tailwheel

It's nice to read your glowing remarks, Dan(AU) and Danny (TX)on the tailwheel upgrade performance.
Just to clarify the angle thing---I measure the fork angle from the floor. The 45 degree fork that Doug Jr. and I have both been using may be more sensitive than we want on an RV with a steering link. The first 6 that I made and shipped should all be flying soon and I'm looking for more input from the builders. These have a 35 degree slope and it is my estimate that they may be less sensitive, as Danny mentioned.
For those of you waiting word on your new orders, I have 12 being built in the currant batch and they should be ready for the welder by Saturday. As promised by our "Marketing Director", these will be going to flying RV's first. with luck, before the end of next week.
Doug Bell Sr.
 
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