[panhandler1956]

The question relates to the putting things off until after the aircraft is completed.
For example; I am comfortable with a part or system as is, but I plan to upgrade/enhance after the aircraft is flying and then go to version 2.0.

To illustrate, I don't like my elevator trim tab, cosmetically, but this one is going to fly until a new unit is fabricated. Of course, if an item could impact safety it should be dealt with prior to the 1st flight.
Your thoughts and what have you done? I know procrastination is the root of all evil!

 

[Ironflight]

Hmmmm...procrastination - can I get back to you on that?

All I can tell you Brent is that I have never liked the stiffener riveting on my -8's rudder, and fully intended to go back and build a new surface. Then I got flying. then it went o the paint shop and got a beautiful logo put on it. five years later, I still think "I really should build a new ruder - but my painter will kill me if he has to do that logo over again!"

Paul

 

[Jaypratt]

finish

I suggest you finish your plane before you fly it. To many RVs start flying with out wheel pants, intersection farings. These things are so much fun, it is very hard to stop flying and go back and do some of the finishing work.

 

[apkp777]

My philosophy during my assembly was to"get it airworthy" and not to worry about cosmetics. That was great...until I parked next to other RV's. Then the difference between utility and craftsmanship became terribly apparent. I have a lousy trim tab, I thought "I'll fix that later", then a wavy aileron T.E., "fix that later", then cowling gap, "I'll get to that", then this and that and those and them. Well, my rework list might take longer than building the plane. Ultimately you have to ask yourself do you really care or not. I thought I'd be fine with poor cosmetics, now I abscess about them. I even wake up in the night sometimes thinking about how I'll fix something. For me it would have been a whole lot easier to finish the plane to my MENTAL satisfaction while it was in my garage than to try to get a plane, located at the airport in a cold dark hangar, to look the way I want it to. I'd say because you ask the question, your answer is obvious. Hey, make me a trim tab while your at it!

 

[RV7Guy]

Do it now

If you analyze the process you are talking about time either way. So, I would recommend you it the way you want it now. Actaully you'll probably save time by doing it "your way," now. It takes more time to undo things and put them back later. As Paul noted, once you are flying.... fugetaboutit.

As I noted may times, Van's makes NOTHING on the kits. Their money is made on our less than accurate building ability.

7000 flying- fabulous

20,000 kits sold- amazing

50,000 trim tabs sold- priceless and profitable

 

[Mike S]

I am voting for the first choice, which just happens to be leading the poll at this time.

There are a few of reasons for this, first is money, second is time, and third is that I want to be sure everything is correct before I paint the beast.

At this time, I found a weeping fuel tank rivet------and am I ever glad there wasnt a multi thousand dollar paint job on the plane. So far only one weeper, but then so far, only one tank has had fuel sitting in it, and then only 5 gal. Are there any more rivets that have faulty sealing???

I installed a rudder trim that may or may not need to be tweeked a bit-----again, better to work it all out prior to painting, IMHO.

 

[hydroguy2]

I vote for #1 AND #2, since I don't need a perfect plane, but I did want a finished plane. Finished to me means painted.

I found during my build(ok during my life)...that if I didn't finish something all the way it may or may not get done completely. ex: during the tail end of our kitchen remodel, I broke my back and couldn't work on it for a year. all I need to do was 2 pieces of crown molding. that was in 2003, today still no molding. but I finished an airplane.

During paint prep I found several items that I had postponed until later that really needed to be finished prior to first flight. this added considerable time which I hadn't allowed for. But the items I had "finished completely" went together like butter. I designed my paint scheme around the possibility that some rework maybe necessary down the road.


There should be a 12 step program....my name is Brian and I'm a 2nd generation procrastinator. my motto: putting off something today makes it easier to put it off again tomorrow

 

[Vlad]

I like perfection that's why I clicked #2. However, I postponed the whole glass panel thing till better times ( and better glass ) It's minimal steam Day VFR.

 

[islandmonkey]

Haveing talked to Andy Hill over a few beers when he was on a layover in Zurich, Andy pulled me up on a comment I made on this site. I had said that it was nice to see a completly finished and painted airplane make its first flight. Andy?s opinion, and I agree with him is that gear fairings and spats should be left off untill after the first flight and it has been established that the plane flies straight without these appendages. When the plane has been corrected for say a heavy wing and is flying straight, the gear fairings and spats can be fitted and adjusted to retain the straight flying characteristics already previously established without them.

 

[Mike S]

Andy?s opinion, and I agree with him is that gear fairings and spats should be left off untill after the first flight and it has been established that the plane flies straight without these appendages. When the plane has been corrected for say a heavy wing and is flying straight, the gear fairings and spats can be fitted and adjusted to retain the straight flying characteristics already previously established without them.

Also, Vans recommends flying without fairings and pants to assist in breaking in a new or rebuilt engine.

 

[Rick6a]

I am voting for the first choice......and am I ever glad there wasnt a multi thousand dollar paint job on the plane.....

I had an intersection fairing start to come apart in flight. If, before the first flight I paid someone for a multi-thousand dollar paint job, the repair bill and additional down time would have been substantial. As it was, by choosing to fly the airplane first, the repair proved quick and easy. The paint came later. Heck, even McDonnell-Douglas once had a program called "FLY IN PRIME." All squawks had to be worked out before final paint application was made and only then did the customer take (accept) delivery.

As I read the second choice in the poll, I submit there is no way to know if an untested airplane is "perfect."

Another example: You paint the rudder before first flight. Oooh Ahhh. Later, flight testing indicates you need to affix a wedge or similar to the trailing edge of the rudder. Suddenly, matching it up existing paint can be problematic, especially if you have a critical eye for detail. Some builders could care less. Which camp do you occupy?

 

[Bob Axsom]

The choices do not provide a clear picture of builder preferences

As I read the responses it seems to me that several builders chose item 1 because they felt it was the one that allowed for completing everything but paint but I read the 3rd choice as the one that allowed for completing everything but paint. The 12 trim tab part was a joke as I saw it. Anyway I started in on this project as the one and only airplane I would ever build and I tried to make it absolutely perfect. I had no intension of flying it without it being complete including every fairing that was supplied by Van's or had to be made by me. I took great care with alignment and installation of fairings which I think is easier to do with a fresh built clean airframe. There were no problems with anything so far as the airplane design or construction were concerned except I spent a lot of time addressing sliding canopy sealing problems that I had been warned about by Ken Scott while in the builders class (maybe the last one) at North Plains, OR. The engine as delivered from Lycoming with the LASAR ignition was life threatening. I could not determine why until I bought a LASAR timing box from Vans and found that the timing was set to 90 deg. BTDC of the compression stroke of Cylinder #1 instead of 25 deg. The flight over the rough area was very marginal and the lower cowling was almost burned all the way through (Black carbon debris was all that was left of the inner surface and much of the core). After I fixed that problem everything was fine but I flew for a year before getting it painted while I finished up a project at JPL, retired and moved to Arkansas. The paint job with imron and clear coat is great - still looks new after 5 years. One really vivid memory is of the flight out of Amarillo, Texas for Fayetteville, Arkansas under low overcast skies (cloud base at 1,100 ft AGL) in the unpainted airplane. We waited all morning and into mid-day before clouds lifted to minimum VFR requirements. The view of the bare unpolished aluminum wings against the landscape there as we turned east was, I don't know, call it primal, manly, military ... I guess you had to be there but to me, that instant it was special and could not have been experienced in a painted RV.

Anyway, I think the choice for everything complete except for paint is #3 not #1.

Bob Axsom

 

[L.Adamson]

I guess I read lot's of forum help, used the Orndorff videos, and Frank Justice plans (RV6A).........

Never called Van's for advice;.. yet nothing has leaked or fell off. Nothing has burned from exhaust heat. I made a new trim tab, after the first try. If anything, I'd have liked the glass work around the lower windscreen transition to be a bit more perfect. Around the upper windscreen itself (slider), is better than some professional glass & paint jobs I've seen. The slider is a perfect fit.

So.........I vote for paint. The majority of RV's around here are painted before flight. I believe that not painting now, is just an excuse to get out of a few more months work! Mine certainly took a few months!! I knew I wouldn't be paying for others to do the work, so being realistic, I painted while the airplane was still in pieces. That way, I knew I wouldn't be transporting a "much less" than finished aircraft to the airport..

Remember.....they ain't done, until they're painted!

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[jetjok]

Also, Vans recommends flying without fairings and pants to assist in breaking in a new or rebuilt engine.

Yeah...Thats the ticket! I am making sure that 1993 RV has a properly broken in engine! Then the fairings will be installed!

 

[newtech]

I suggest you finish your plane before you fly it. To many RVs start flying with out wheel pants, intersection farings. These things are so much fun, it is very hard to stop flying and go back and do some of the finishing work.

Interesting that this should come up today. I hosted our EAA meeting at my hangar this morning. The meeting was watching me do the clay modeling job for the front intersection fairing for my RV-7A and the fiberglass layup. Like so many I waited to finish up the intersection fairings until now. Only 148 hours after the first flight last June 24th. Not counting the nose gear fairing I did this morning I am seeing about a 4 gallon per hour savings at cruise. So 4 gph X 148 nm X $4.80 per gallon = $2,841.60 that could have gone for the new EFIS I have been asking Santa for.

Finish it up now; you will be glad you did.

 

[jsharkey]

Interesting that this should come up today. I hosted our EAA meeting at my hangar this morning. The meeting was watching me do the clay modeling job for the front intersection fairing for my RV-7A and the fiberglass layup. Like so many I waited to finish up the intersection fairings until now. Only 148 hours after the first flight last June 24th. Not counting the nose gear fairing I did this morning I am seeing about a 4 gallon per hour savings at cruise. So 4 gph X 148 nm X $4.80 per gallon = $2,841.60 that could have gone for the new EFIS I have been asking Santa for.

Finish it up now; you will be glad you did.

Those must be some slick fairings

Jim Sharkey
RV-6 60hrs - wheel pants and paint pending

 

[lancef53]

4gph from fairings?

 

[PIN 37]

until I bought a LASAR timing box from Vans

BOB, I would be interested in getting such an instrument, but looked on the Van's web store and could not find any reference to this. Could you give me a reference or a part number?

 

[newtech]

4gph from fairings?

Sorry, fairings and wheel pants on a 7A

 

[Bob Axsom]

EA T-300 Timing Light

BOB, I would be interested in getting such an instrument, but looked on the Van's web store and could not find any reference to this. Could you give me a reference or a part number?

EA T-300 Timing Light is the way it is identified in the Van's 2004 catalog on page 5. I will look further after dinner if you haven't found it.

Bob Axsom

I did a search on line through Aircraft Spruce They call it: Part Number 12-00181, Description T300 LASAR Timing Light, Price $462.95

Bob Axsom

 

[jsharkey]

Sorry, fairings and wheel pants on a 7A

4 gph - Some mistake, surely

 

[DanH]

There is one valid reason for flying before fully finished and painted.....you had to fly it to the paint shop. Everything else is an excuse.

Ya know, other builders laugh at the Vans clan.....who ever flew a new Pitts in primer?

 

[Bob Axsom]

HA - HA - HA - HA - HA ... OK

There is one valid reason for flying before fully finished and painted.....you had to fly it to the paint shop. Everything else is an excuse.

Ya know, other builders laugh at the Vans clan.....who ever flew a new Pitts in primer?

I withholding my reaction the best I can. 20,000 Van's builders laugh back at them.

Bob Axsom

 

[Ironflight]

There is one valid reason for flying before fully finished and painted.....you had to fly it to the paint shop. Everything else is an excuse.

If you think you're plane is going to be "finished" when you fly it for the first time, you might be a bit delusional.... (I'm kidding you Dan - I have the utmost respect for your building prowess!)

Point is, I have made lots of changes to avionics and minor details in the five years the airplane first flew...I don't think an Experimental is ever truly finished - so does that mean that you never fly it?

(And yes, I had to fly mine to the paint shop, so I am excused! )

Paul

 

[PIN 37]

No joy finding that timing light Bob. I cant find anything on the Van's web store

 

[Bob Axsom]

Aircraft Spruce has it

No joy finding that timing light Bob. I cant find anything on the Van's web store

http://www.aircraftspruce.com has it search for LASAR Timing Light and it will come up with their number but they also show it as T-300. I did a search on line through Aircraft Spruce They call it: Part Number 12-00181, Description T300 LASAR Timing Light, Price $462.95

Bob Axsom

 

[PIN 37]

Thanks Bob, got it now.

 

[Phil]

I think the answer depends a lot on your paint job. If you're doing something pretty basic then it's fairly easy to build a new part and get it to match.

But if you're going to be adding a paint job with lots of detail and maybe some custom air brushing, etc. It sure is easier to rebuild the part before painting.

Phil

 

[DanH]

...I don't think an Experimental is ever truly finished

......which illustrates the practical side of the "neat and complete" philosophy. Always plenty to do without adding things which should have been done and were easier to do back when you were building.

If you can't find time to do it right, where will you find time to do it over?

BTW gentlemen, this a philosophy question.....no pass/fail, no right/wrong.

 

[L.Adamson]

There is one valid reason for flying before fully finished and painted.....you had to fly it to the paint shop. Everything else is an excuse.

Words, so true..

Whether your plane is parked with others for breakfast somewhere, or at a fly-in/ airshow...................the "classy" painted ones will always get the first observations from those who pass by.

The un-painted, or, un-polished machines might get a glance through the canopy, as the observer hoping for the best, takes the chance of seeing an interior/panel that looks to be an improvement from from the initial outside inspection.

This is fact , as an unpainted airplane only looks good in the eye of it's builder............who is always imagining a fancy paint job. Just put your un-painted plane on the line........and see..

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Ironflight]

I guess you guys are right - there has never been a plane that few unpainted that turned out worth a dang....no way it could ever be improved, a total loss. It's a shame we have so many losers (by your defitnition) in this community.

Seriously - I think there is a bit of elitism creeping in here.

 

[John Courte]

My plan is to get it flying and fully flight tested before doing anything cosmetic. I'm more concerned with a safe airplane than a pretty one. I've never built one of these things before, but over time I've developed instincts that make me go back and redo something I thought was OK in the early stages of the build. I'm pretty satisfied now with my construction abilities, and I think I'm done with things I'd like to redo. OK, maybe the trim tab, but the one I got will do. Once I'm satisfied with the flying characteristics and the overall comfort level (mission is XC/light IFR), I'll get serious about the ship's wardrobe and makeup.

I've been looking at that can of worms, sitting on the shelf like it's a particularly nice vintage of single-malt. What paint scheme? A TIE fighter? Mad Max's yellow Interceptor? Matte black rat rod with a Big Daddy Roth veiny eyeball on the tail? Polished aluminum with chrome-painted fiberbits? When's the right time to crack the seal?

Then there's the stuff deferred because I just don't have the space. Final wiring of wing and tail equipment is going to come at the airport. There isn't enough space in my guest house to put on both the engine and the rudder at the same time. Guess which one wins? If I want to get the plane out of the build space with the HS on, I'll have to move a fridge and remove about 30" of kitchen wall. So as these limitations are reached (what am I gonna do, wife won't let me gut the guest house), I find things to defer.

 

[hydroguy2]

I.....Seriously - I think there is a bit of elitism creeping in here.....

I think anyone who gets to airworthiness status can stand on the elite pondium. 7052 flying RV's is a small group no matter what finish coat is worn.

I can't speak for anyone, but I HAD to finish including paint or I may never finish. After 31 yrs of marriage, when my wife said "I'm not flying in it until it's finished" I understood fully what she was saying.

is my plane perfect?...not by a long shot.
will it need adjustments due to flight characteristics....maybe
am I elite....I don't know, but I've been told by a few I'm "special"

 

[L.Adamson]

I guess you guys are right - there has never been a plane that few unpainted that turned out worth a dang....no way it could ever be improved, a total loss. It's a shame we have so many losers (by your defitnition) in this community.

Seriously - I think there is a bit of elitism creeping in here.

I had to re-read this. I thought you were talking about us "training wheel" folks for a moment...

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Mike S]

BTW gentlemen, this a philosophy question.....no pass/fail, no right/wrong.

Exactly....