BlackRV7

BlackRV7

Well Known Member
WOW, that is all I can say. Today for the first time, I rolled Black Magic out of the garage in order to get GPS reception to make sure everything was "talking" to each other before I start installing the forward deck. WOW, after altering one input on my GRT HS unit, all data from the GPS showed up on the map, distance, details, airspace WOW this is one nice piece of equipment. I'm blown away with what we have available in the experimental arena. This is just more than I expected. I'm somewhat speechless, great data presentation, grabbed right onto my Trio autopilot, easy to navigate. GRT, it's obvious you spent some time on the entire package. Can't wait for my HX!!


I'm hooking up the battery charger and "I'm a playin". Sorry just a little bit "escited".
 
Which EFIS route to go???

I'm right in the midst of panel design and layout for my RV-9A. I'm really torn about the price difference between the Dynon FlightDEK D180 ($5000), Vs GRT HS($7300) and AFS 3500EE ($7550).

That's a significant price difference... and I'd really appreciate hearing users of these 3 systems chime in on pros & cons. Is this really a case of you get what you pay for???? If so, what's the $2300 diff??

Thanks!
Mike
 
rv9av8tr said:
I'm right in the midst of panel design and layout for my RV-9A. I'm really torn about the price difference between the Dynon FlightDEK D180 ($5000), Vs GRT HS($7300) and AFS 3500EE ($7550).

That's a significant price difference... and I'd really appreciate hearing users of these 3 systems chime in on pros & cons. Is this really a case of you get what you pay for???? If so, what's the $2300 diff??

Thanks!
Mike
Click to expand...


Hello Mike,

the difference is that the various systems all have different features. levels of design redundancy, and to some extent, purpose. Very few people have flown a significant amount with multiple systems, so it can be hard to get direct comparisons - lots of "I have used this system, and it is great!" posts, but much tougher to get one person's comparison. If you scan through this forum (Glass Cockpit) for posts on the systems, you can learn a lot. I have two airplanes in my hanagr that I fly regularly, one with Dynon, and one with GRT - they both have their missions, and the systems do what they say they will do.

Bottom line - yes, there are significant differences which show up in different prices, and before you choose a system, you need to determine what you want it to do, and what features you need.

Paul
 
It's what they don't say....

I understand Paul. I have read through the info they have in their websites and they all "sound great". Perhaps it's what they "don't say" that leaves one wondering what the product is not good at. I didn't find much helpful in the Glass Cockpit forum discussions.

For example, GRT talks about how seamless their display update is because they don't use GPS updating for that function. They use magnetometers, etc bla bla bla. Like I would know what they are, how they work and why it would make a difference. They also talk alot about how their processing is so robust. But Dynon & AFS doesn't talk about all that stuff in the detail that GRT does. So does that mean Dynon & AFS screen flow is herky jerky & less reliable?

These systems seem so complex, that for an "avionics commoner" like me, I don't think I really appreciate the significance what they can or can not do for whatever my "mission" is. One of the RV pilots in our EAA chapter has glass in his plane and says they are just like home computers and "lock up" sometimes. Geezzz..... that's not good!! Sorry... I'm just feeling frustrated........
 
That's a really loaded up D180!

D180: $3200
Bight Screen: $200
Engine Harness & Probes: $600
Fuel Flow: $200
Wiring Harness: $90
Backup Battery: $130

Total: $4420

I promise you we haven't sold 8,000+ EFIS units by being unreliable, locking up in flight, or being herky-jerky. Ask any of our customers. Of the three companies you are looking at, we all build reliable, good products. I'm guessing your friend doesn't have one of our products.

The "mission" Paul is talking about means full IFR, accidental IMC, daylight VFR, etc. What functions do you really need out of your EFIS, and what is your goal for your EFIS?

I think Pacific Coast Avionics is near you, and they probably have demos of all of our equipment.
 
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Mission & equip

Thanks Dynon for chiming in!

My IMC plans are "light IFR", meaning busting through the typical coastal marine layer (2 to 6K thick) we often have along the west coast. No planned solid IFR and no IFR to minimums (my personal minimum is around 800 AGL).

I understand the HS34 unit, is a "converter" if you will, to take a signal from a standard Nav radio and input it to the FlightDEK display. So I included $675 for that also.

I'll be installing a KX-155 with a KI-209 Indicator And I'm planning to use the AVMap-IV for a panel GPS unit. So are those compatible with the FlightDEK?

Your right, by RV friend isn't using one of these 3 EFIS systems....
Yes, PCA is just down the road from where I work. I was in there a couple weeks ago, but all their displays were at OSH.

Thanks for your input!
Mike
 
I will chime in for GRT

I have a dual screen GRT Horizon I with the new screens. Fantastic units. I have never ever had them lock up (about 120 hours on the RV-10 now). As others have said Dynon, AFS and GRT all make great products and have wonderful reputations in the community.

I actually visited Dynon and took a tour of their facility (suburban Seattle) and came away very impressed with them too.

The best thing about glass is the instant situational awareness that it gives you. I flew lots of approaches (some to minimums) and I can tell you that it is hard work to keep the scan working well across a traditional six pack. Much easier on the GRTs.

Specific things I like about the GRT are:

- very nice sharp graphics (new screens)
- very easy to see in bright sunlight but dimmable for night flight
- velocity vector (the bug that tells you where you are going)
- complete configurability (tons of options on how to set up your screens)
- a "figure-outable" interface. Not sure how to do something, try what you think may be the right way and generally you are correct.

Only thing I don't like about GRT:

-the printed manual is pathetically bad.

And the thing I LOVE about GRT:

- the support. Sandy, Carlos, Mark, Greg (and a few others) are unbelievably great to work with. They answer the phone, they call you back quickly if they can't. They know their products REALLY well. They happily answer dumb questions (and I have asked a lot of those).

Early in the install I had a problem with my GRTs that was driving me crazy (the problem actually turned out to be an issue with my GNS-430) and I talked to Greg (one of the head guys at GRT) about two dozen times. He even gave me his personal cell phone number to reach him outside of business hours.

I would not hesitate to give my highest recommendation to GRT.
 
Mike,
Unfortunately the HS-34 won't work with a KX-155. When we designed it, we hoped we'd be able to support a lot of the older analog radios, but the Bendix stuff turned out to be a real pain.

We can take in a VOR from an SL-30, 430, 530, 480, and probably some other stuff. If you decide to go with us, check with us on the radios you have and we'll tell you what we can and can't do. Make sure you check with GRT and AFS if you decide to go that way. I don't think AFS supports any of the non-digital NAV radios, and I forget if GRT does.

The AvMap will work fine with us for a full HSI display and the other tricks we can do with GPS like winds aloft and fuel economy.
 
Prepared to be shot down in flames........so flak jacket and tin hat ON! :D

What is this Light IFR business????:cool: If you climb through 6000' of cloud, thats IMC..... ICAO FAA or anyone I know of has never officially classified IMC.

Sure some IMC is rough and bumpy and some has hail and lightning :eek: but IMC is IMC.

As I see it, a D100 and say a backup D180 is fine whether you fly through the odd rain shower (not VMC) or climb through 6000 feet of solid fluffy stuff.

As for doing an approach to the minima...... the EFIS does not know its cloud and rain or brilliant sunshine or black as the inside of a cow.

I assume there are hundreds of Dynons doing IMC every day, so in the end its down to personal prefference. GM v Ford V BMW v Mercedes Benz v Toyota. we all have good reasons for chosing one to suit our needs.

While I am on my soap box. I see many of the manufacturers producing these synthetic vision panels. Sure these have a place in Military Ops, and for all you budding Top Gun fans out there knock yourself out! but the bottom line is when you are in VMC, you do not need it. When IFR....... you have a LSALT or MSA. You have rules and procedures. Myself I prefer the traditional display.

Of course doing a dodgy beat up over your mates house at midnight........ it might be handy.....until the Telco builds a Cell phone tower in the way :eek:

Cheers

DB
 
rv9av8tr said:
Thanks Dynon for chiming in!

My IMC plans are "light IFR", meaning busting through the typical coastal marine layer (2 to 6K thick) we often have along the west coast. No planned solid IFR and no IFR to minimums (my personal minimum is around 800 AGL).
Click to expand...


Questions to ask the various vendors:

What happens if you lose the pitot? (i.e. ice or your favorite critter) This is a key differences between the vendors. You'll have to choose if how a particular vendor handles the situation meets you comfort level for IFR. There is at least one vendor that I am not comfortable with their answer to this question.

The next best thing your probably won't see on any web site. What's the work load of the EFIS in IMC conditions. (i.e. buttons, menus, screens, are they intuitive or award) Some of the vendors have information better arranged that others. Fortunately, I was able to get hands on all the products mentioned but one at OSH. The one vendor I didn't get a demo from obviously isn't concerned about selling product. I had similiar issues last year. I also had the luxory of taking along people that already owned several of the units for the test drive, so they could share tips and tricks. The downside is that this will be highly subjective to personal opinion.

My requirements aren't much different than yours. I was able to reach a decision as to which vendor I prefer. I can tell you that Op Tech, Garmin, and Chelton aren't in my budget. PM/Email me if you want to know what I chose and why. I proably won't purchase anything until next summer. Who knows, the vendors in the middle tier are leap frogging each other with features. Just get you EFIS as late as possible to take advantage of the competition.

bob
 
dynonsupport said:
Mike,
Unfortunately the HS-34 won't work with a KX-155. When we designed it, we hoped we'd be able to support a lot of the older analog radios, but the Bendix stuff turned out to be a real pain.
Click to expand...

Bummer..... back to the drawing board for me.... or open the check book .... again.....
 
I have a AFS and a back up Dynon and I love them both, I know this my not help you make a decision but they both work very, very well. Yesterday I was in the clouds and the visual on he panel was excellent! It took me over a year to make a final decision on my equipment, just try to decide what you really need maybe that will help.
 
rleffler said:
Questions to ask the various vendors:

What happens if you lose the pitot? (i.e. ice or your favorite critter) This is a key differences between the vendors. You'll have to choose if how a particular vendor handles the situation meets you comfort level for IFR. There is at least one vendor that I am not comfortable with their answer to this question.
Click to expand...

Bob is talking about us. Dynon EFIS units requires accurate pitot information for accurate attitude. It's something the competition likes to beat us over the head with because it's something we've always been 100% honest about, so everyone knows about it. Just like Garmin publishes their requirements for AHRS accuracy on their certified G1000 (GPS or Pitot), so do we.

If you're really, really concerned about frozen/blocked pitots, put two of them on your plane. Parallel pitots work fine, and are redundant. You can buy two EFIS units from us, two heated pitots, and you'll still be less than a single, non-redundant unit from the competition.

Something to ask vendors as well, as long as you are deep into failure modes: How long does it take to boot in flight if you lose power, or if the unit locks up? Do you require *any* other assistance for your AHRS?

Answer for Dynon: About 10 seconds. Gonna be minutes for the competition, and many of them use GPS.

The use of pitot isn't always a weakness. It allows us to be very accurate and gives us things like very quick boot times since we don't have to guess at what the plane is doing, we measure it.

That being said, we understand that many customers wish that we did not have a pitot dependency, so we are working on an alternate system. We even hired a full time mathematician to work on this.
 
7 seconds (or so) for MGL Odyssey

dynonsupport said:
Answer for Dynon: About 10 seconds. Gonna be minutes for the competition, and many of them use GPS.
Click to expand...

Answer for MGL Odyssey, with AHRS and SP2 mag sensor and GPS, about 7 seconds for bootup. I could do it with a stopwatch, but that's pretty close.

YMMV
 
I truly have no idea about the MGL units, but is it accurate if you boot it in flight, and in a turn? I'm not just talking about booting it on the ground. I'm talking about time to accurate attitude while in flight.

It very well may be. I know some other units will take a very long time to be accurate if booted in flight (if ever).
 
For Dynonsupport - with your new integrated autopilot, a pitot failure would disable both, correct? If one did install a dual pitot, would these just tee together before entering the unit?
 
You would just tee the pitots.

We're not 100% sure how the AP will perform without pitot. The EFIS doesn't roll over or tumble without pitot, and the AP uses a lot more than just the attitude. If this is important to you, ask us when we have had a chance to to a bit more testing. It is our goal that the AP function well without pitot.
 
Pitot issue

Personally I'm not worried about the pitot tube issue. For one, when was the last time you heard of one freezing up? Secondly, I won't be flying in the clouds without some standalone redunancy anyway and I believe that is how most people plan to build their panels.

I am like most of you guys, still trying to decide, luckily I have about a year and I'm really excited about the Next Gen Dynon and of course I have always liked the AFS. I need to research GRT more as well.

The problem of too many choices is a good one to have.

What's a vacuum pump? ;)
 
dynonsupport said:
You would just tee the pitots.

We're not 100% sure how the AP will perform without pitot. The EFIS doesn't roll over or tumble without pitot, and the AP uses a lot more than just the attitude. If this is important to you, ask us when we have had a chance to to a bit more testing. It is our goal that the AP function well without pitot.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I am interested, but want an a/p to be independent so as to serve as a backup in case the EFIS goes tango uniform. That is what I don't understand about the Dynon - how integrated are the EFIS and a/p so they could remain someone independent, and how independent of the pitot could it be to remove a single source of failure taking out two flying tools.
 
cnpeters said:
Thanks. I am interested, but want an a/p to be independent so as to serve as a backup in case the EFIS goes tango uniform. That is what I don't understand about the Dynon - how integrated are the EFIS and a/p so they could remain someone independent, and how independent of the pitot could it be to remove a single source of failure taking out two flying tools.
Click to expand...

What are you planning on doing for your backup Attitude indicator?

If you use two Dynons (and dual Pitot tubes hooked in a tee as they suggest) you would have two independent attitude sources, and could even build in a switch to control which EFIS is the "autopilot." That way, reversion to your "backup" system does not mean hand-flying.

Like many people here, in over 2,500 flight hours (including a bit of supersonic flying) I have never experienced a loss of pitot information. Having two heated pitot tubes seems a little on the paranoid side, but should certainly allay any fears in that regard.

As another thought, having two heated AoA pitot tubes might also insure you get adequate stall warning in an uncoordinated flight scenario. Yeah, they are expensive - but just think about how hard it is to replace yourself...

Cheers,

Bill
 
Which EFIS?

Correct me if wrong, but for experimentals isn't GRT the only one made for IFR? The others just for VFR I think. Any of these units can quit and your Garmin
X96 will still give you nav+6pak capability... For VFR

Dynon looks pretty tempting with the new A/P, long as it's out soon...

Jerry
 
Jerry

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

If you can prove that some fluffy dice hanging from the ceiling will work, that would do too:eek:

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for a TSO'd EFIS in Experimental category, either in the USA or down here.

DB
 
RV10inOz said:
Jerry

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

If you can prove that some fluffy dice hanging from the ceiling will work, that would do too:eek:

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for a TSO'd EFIS in Experimental category, either in the USA or down here.

DB
Click to expand...

Errr...

Who said anything about TSO? But doesn't GRT do the ILS thing as opposed to the others? Not saying anything about legality...

Jerry
 
OK sorry about that....... must be touchy after so many LAMES and techies here do not get the idea!

Dynon and a GNS430/530W will do it!
 
I've been flying since 1967......

.....shortly after being drafted. In all those years and around 17,000 hours up high, down near the ground where there are plenty of available bugs to impact pitot heads, never lost a pitot. When I forgot to remove the pitot cover, yes. Not ice nor bugs has ever blocked it.

Don't re-invent the wheel, guys. Are you really gonna fly into known icing? Will you have a OAT gauge in your airplane to avoid icing? How 'bout a BRS then:D

Regards,
 
pierre smith said:
.....shortly after being drafted. In all those years and around 17,000 hours up high, down near the ground where there are plenty of available bugs to impact pitot heads, never lost a pitot. When I forgot to remove the pitot cover, yes. Not ice nor bugs has ever blocked it.

Don't re-invent the wheel, guys. Are you really gonna fly into known icing? Will you have a OAT gauge in your airplane to avoid icing? How 'bout a BRS then:D

Regards,
Click to expand...

Thanks fot the reassurance, Pierre (and others). I am just trying to figure out how much redundancy is necessary for VFR day/night without getting into covering extreme improbability.
 
Jerry Cochran said:
But doesn't GRT do the ILS thing as opposed to the others?
Click to expand...

We do a full HSI with glide slope and will show the CDI, GS, and course right on the main EFIS screen as well. So will AFS. We've all advanced a lot in the past few years and can read from external radios to display a variety of information.
 
When I said WOW about my new GRT unit, in no way was I saying NAH to Dynon. I kept my EMS D180 and had my D10 upgraded to a D10A and now have them talking to each other and have RS232 data going from my Gramin 430 to pin 19 thereby showing HSI with data on either screen. Dynon has made some very nice upgrades to their systems. Question for Dynonsupport. What will I be able to do, or not be able to do, with the HSI presentation without using your expansion module?

Nice stuff we have available.........adding WxWorks to my GRT unit today!!
 
Pitot system gone bad...

Guess I'm the unlucky one. I was flying a Lance down and back from Haiti. We were on the ground about three days and when we went to leave Cap Haitian I did a thorough inspection (of course) to make sure there were NO bugs that had crawled into any openings. I've seen mud dobbers do that. Also wanted to make sure that no locals had removed any vital parts of the plane. Well, anyway, just after rotation I realized that several of the readings weren't right. The plane was flying and I sure wasn't gonna return to Haiti and have it "looked at", so we pressed on to West Palm. Turned out that a bug had crawled so far back into the tube that it couldn't be seen and got stuck there. I was really glad that I was renting. They had to remove a lot of the system and flush it out. But, they were so happy that it wasn't stuck on a runway in Haiti that they THANKED me! :D
Around here (Tennessee) we have starlings that like to nest in tail cones, undercarriages and air intake scat tubes. Even had a mouse once. That's when you know you haven't been flying enough.
 
You can do the HSI from your 430 for the GPS side just by hooking the serial line up to the EFIS like you have. This means horizontal guidance based on your current GPS flight plan. You can't get any vertical info, or anything from the ILS. Also, you need to scale the CDI manually (terminal / approach/ enroute).

To get the NAV/ILS, vertical GPS guidance, or GPS CDI auto-scaling, you need the expansion module. The 430 doesn't put any of this data out over serial, so to get it you need to use ARINC-429, which is what our HS34 module is for. It's the same basic situation as you probably had with your GRT unit- basic GPS without the 429 converter, or buy the converter to get all the info.
 
dynonsupport said:
You can do the HSI from your 430 for the GPS side just by hooking the serial line up to the EFIS like you have. This means horizontal guidance based on your current GPS flight plan. You can't get any vertical info, or anything from the ILS. Also, you need to scale the CDI manually (terminal / approach/ enroute).

To get the NAV/ILS, vertical GPS guidance, or GPS CDI auto-scaling, you need the expansion module. The 430 doesn't put any of this data out over serial, so to get it you need to use ARINC-429, which is what our HS34 module is for. It's the same basic situation as you probably had with your GRT unit- basic GPS without the 429 converter, or buy the converter to get all the info.
Click to expand...

Thanks, just wanted to know. I have the ARINC 429 unit on my GRT so I do get the vertical.
 
Mike,

Why don?t you do take the 15 minute drive from Milwaukie to Canby and get a tour of our facility and see what we are working on. I can even take you for a flight in our RV-10 so you can see how our units work under actual flight conditions. We have an AF-4500EF, AF-4500EE, AF-3400MFD, 430W, SL30, Traffic from a GTX-330, 496, Digiflight VSGV autopilot, and XM weather all in the RV-10 so you will be able to see how the system works with the various equipment. After flying in our RV10 with the incredibly smooth Hartzell composite three-blade prop, you are going to be hooked on one of those also. :)

I am not sure where Jerry got this idea?

?Correct me if wrong, but for experimentals isn't GRT the only one made for IFR??

We do not use a PC operating system for our systems.

Our AHRS is manufactured by Crossbow in an FAA certified and monitored facility. Crossbow puts every one of their sensors through multiple 12-hour temperature calibration cycles. Every one of our AHRS is calibrated on a dual-axis ovenized rate table (cost $250,000 each) and the Magnetometers are calibrated using a Helmholtz cage. The same basic Crossbow AHRS design that we use is also being used in many certified aircraft and even regulated Air Taxi operations.

We are highly experienced in certified EFIS design and are actually developing the software for the new Honeywell KFD-840 EFIS.


Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems [Phone (503) 263-0037]
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10
 
I am not sure where Jerry got this idea?

?Correct me if wrong, but for experimentals isn't GRT the only one made for IFR??

Rob,

Sorry, didn't research the issue properly which is why the caveat appeared.
Thanks for weighing in and I'll be sure to consider AFS when upgrading this winter.

Jerry in Sherwood
 
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