Bill Wightman

Bill Wightman

Well Known Member
I have a Lycoming O-360 A1A with approx 330 TTSN. Its last flight was around 1988. Its been stored indoors since then, NOT pickled. I got it about 6 years ago and it was still technically an airworthy engine. I had it bore scoped and no rust was found. The IA who looked it over could find no problems, at least visually. And the logs show no problems with its history, although I don't know why it was taken out of service with only 330 since new.

Its now hanging on the nose of my RV8. The question that bugs me a little is all about the fact that its not been pickled for 20 years of idle time.

Is that a problem? Or could this motor run happily on for another 1500+ hours? I really don't know. What would you do?
 
Run it and change the oil in 2-4 hours. Have the oil analyzed for your base information and then change the oil again in 10 hours, then 25 hours, ect. Build a history and the lab tests will tell you the story. What you would be most concerned about is catostophic failure and that is not likely at all. If it does have hidden rust you will soon find out by lab tests on the oil.

A buddy of mine found an 0-360 with 30 hours on in and it sat for 12 years before he got it. It was well preserved though, and stored upside down full of oil. He now has 1,375 hours on it.

Good luck! Hope it works out. JMHO.
 
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In a reasonably dry climate, an engine can be stored without pickling for quite a long time. Check out the cam and crank flange. If you didn't see rust on the cylinder walls, you should be good to go. Like Larry says, do frequent oil changes early on. I wouldn't be afraid to fly behind it.
 
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I'd say bent crank or something else major. Really, who removes a next to new engine for no apparent reason and then lets it sit for 20 years?
 
Fly

Bill Wightman said:
Its now hanging on the nose of my RV8. The question that bugs me a little is all about the fact that its not been pickled for 20 years of idle time.

Is that a problem? Or could this motor run happily on for another 1500+ hours? I really don't know. What would you do?
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Bill:

I bought an engine that had been run on an irregular basis for the last 20 years. I got a really good deal on the engine. The reason was, that the camshaft had rusted, pitted and had some of the worst galling you could imagine.

When I bought it, the engine had only run 2 hours since an oil change and oil analysis with no abnormalities noted on the report. The reason we found the problem was that two cylinders were below minimums at the annual inspection and were removed for repair.

The engine shop called a couple of days later and said "check your camshaft, the piston skirts are full of metal".

When we looked at the camshaft it was obvious. Two lobes were nearly round. This was only two hours run time after a normal oil analysis.

My suggestion to you is: Pull at least one cylinder and check the camshaft for rust. If there is any sign of rust, I would suggest you part the case, install a new camshaft with new followers, replace the bearings, rings, and re-hone the cylinders, an possibly new valves, seats and guides. In addition, I would check out the oil pump and the gears in the accessory case.

I know this sounds like a doomsday scenario, and it may be totally unnecessary, but I would pull a cylinder and check the cam regardless.

Like my old buddy used to say, "whatever makes you feel comfortable at 3000 ft.".:eek:

ps: Don't shoot the messenger.:eek:
 
20 Years?

Without even looking?
For flight?
Single engine?
No.
Correction - **** No.
 
I would, in fact I did. Same motor, factory new in 1969, 900 TTSN, it'd been sitting for 12 years outside, did have some pitting on the cylinder walls, nothing too bad, a little surface rust on the outside. Rebuilt mags, Complied with all the AD's and put new hoses on, flew for 600 hours before the cam started going flat with nothing by 50hr oil changes with Aeroshell 100W and Avblend.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat, the only thing that clued me off to the came was a slight power loss (shown up in climb and cruise speed). The cam was just starting to go when we pulled it. Rebuilt the core engine for $11,500 and kept the mags on with a fresh 500hr. Basically got a 'free' 600 hours, results may not be typical, but I'd do it again.
 
Fly that?

Just had to overhaul an A75 for a cub rebuild. It had 30hrs since overhaul 20 years ago. The crank and the cylinders were rusted. All it took was a new crank, new cylinders. I would at least tear it down and check everything and reassemble it, just costs a gasket set but will give you peace of mind, especially over mountains.

RT
 
A friend of mine owns a Thorp T-18 that has an O-360 that was overhauled in 1976. I've been maintaining it. Compression tests are great. Oil pressure is great. It has about 1000 hours SMOH and uses a quart of oil in 6 to 8 hours. I don't now how long a time it might have sat without running, but so far, it's doing OK.
 
I would say...

"....although I don't know why it was taken out of service with only 330 since new..."

may be the kicker...

I presume this means there is not an existing log book?

If it was removed for a prop strike - then all bets are off....:rolleyes:
 
Bill Wightman said:
I have a Lycoming O-360 A1A with approx 330 TTSN. Its last flight was around 1988. Its been stored indoors since then, NOT pickled. I got it about 6 years ago and it was still technically an airworthy engine. I had it bore scoped and no rust was found. The IA who looked it over could find no problems, at least visually. And the logs show no problems with its history, although I don't know why it was taken out of service with only 330 since new.

Its now hanging on the nose of my RV8. The question that bugs me a little is all about the fact that its not been pickled for 20 years of idle time.

Is that a problem? Or could this motor run happily on for another 1500+ hours? I really don't know. What would you do?
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First, if my memory is good Lycoming recommends that for engines that have not beeen pickeled and that have not FLOWN for 30 days to remove a cylinder to do a spot check of the engine's guts; So as a minimum, you should do it.

Second, 30 years ago when I started flying I had bought a Champ 7DC with a C85 which according to the official logs was apparently about 300 hr since overhaul. The logbook with the last overhaul specifics was not available as the rules here in Canada say you can trash it after two years. After flying about 150 hours with it, on a Take-Off the engine swallowed cylinder one exhaust valve flat tip destroying the engine and, I had to force land on a dragster's strip that happened to be within gliding distance (got lucky in my misfortune); After inspection of the engine and listening through the woods surrounding the local airports, I learned that the thing was at leats 4000 hours old (the main bearings only had the base steel left !) and had received many tops at motorcycle shops; As a note the valve stems right above the flat end of the valves were corroded down/creeped to about 50% of the original diameter and, there were no more shoulder thickness on the edges of the valve flats where they contact the seats (read razor blades). So even with some mirage of traceability you can be s*****d.

Indeed, though a minority all aviators are not good and honest folks !
 
Bill, As you can see there are many opinions, many stories about engines. Ultimately, you are the manufacturer / pilot and will have to make your own decisions. Let us know what you decide, and how the engine turns out.

Good luck!
 
I presume this means there is not an existing log book?
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Gil - Well now that is a very good question. Yes, there is a logbook. Problem is its in French, and I can't read it. I need to get to an english/french conversion website and see what it says.

Joebird - the crank isn't bent. We dialed it and its fine.

My suggestion to you is: Pull at least one cylinder and check the camshaft for rust. If there is any sign of rust, I would suggest you part the case, install a new camshaft with new followers, replace the bearings, rings, and re-hone the cylinders, an possibly new valves, seats and guides. In addition, I would check out the oil pump and the gears in the accessory case.
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I think this pretty well sums it up for me. It would be no big deal at this time to pull a jug and get a really good look inside.

Thanks to everybody with all the great input. I'll post again when I know more...
 
Bill Wightman said:
Problem is its in French, and I can't read it. I need to get to an english/french conversion website and see what it says.
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If you can't figure the translation on the web, i could probably help you on that. Further, if that engine comes from Canada, I could probably help wrt the level of standard of the names in it.

F. GAGNON
 
Mr Gagnon, The engine last flew in France. I would appreciate your help! If I emailed the French text to you, would that be OK?
 
Je peut vous aider avec votre traduission du Francais

Hello, Bill: If you are coming to LOE next week, I would be happy to help you with your logbook translation. Bring the book, and we can sit for a while and figure it out. Let me know either on the site or via PM. BTW, the first WWI French air force Ace was Jean Navarre; possibly remotely related. I finally figured this love of aviation is genetically mandated. Yeah!!!!
Tom Navar.
 
Can you scan the pages you don't understand?

Hi Bill,

If you still need help for translation, please feel free to scan the pages you want to translate and email them to me.

I live in France and I'm almost in the same situation with the engine I bought, but I've been lucky to get in touch with the mechanics that removed the engine some 30 years ago so he could tell me the whole story.

I can try to do the same kind of search for your engine if the log shows some stamps from maintenance centers.

Just let me know.

Best regards
 
Mine was OK

Bill,
I got a 0-360-A1A that had 774 TT and was sitting pickled for 12 years. I pulled the jugs to make sure there was no rust, did the Oil Pump AD, lapped the valves, new gaskets. Reason for removal was High Oil Consumption. Replaced Pistions and rings to correct RFR and all has been good for 170 hours.

I would at least pull 1 jug to check for rust and run out the crank before you fly behind it.
 
Just another opinion

I would deal with the engine now before you fly.

At friend at our airport built a beautiful airplane and installed an engine with similar history to yours, although less time sitting also not pickled. The engine had been scoped and all looked good. After final Airworthiness inspection and ready to fly the engine when run started showing some problems. A couple of cylinders had rusted where the rings sat against the cylinders. Ended up having to tear the engine down and overhaul.

No tragic stories or anything like that. When your airplane is done and Airworthiness issued you want to fly your creation not have to tear it apart and go through the engine. Not saying this is what will happen with yours but it could. Sitting that long without properly prepared for storage increases the odds that there could be a problem.

Deal with it now and have it behind you.

I agree with others saying it probably wouldn't be a catastrophic failure. I just think once your airplane is finished you don't want to have tear the engine apart and deal with it then.

Ted
 
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