[RVbySDI]

To Doug and the other moderators.

I know you have the right to close down threads and restrict specific types of comments from being published on this site. However, I fail to see why the thread started by CaptainAvgas asking about why people think there are not more women building RV's needed to be shut down. I read what was posted and did not feel there were un-civil comments being written.

I agree it could be an emotionally charged topic that could fall head long into some very PC driven statements and some down right rude behavior but I believe all of us can recognize that and behave like gentlemen.

The question is a legitimate one that could be explored with civility. Louise had some legitimate points but so did others. I did not take the question to be a slap in the face of Louise or Roberta or any other female RVers out there. I took it to be an intriguing question that explores some underlying mechanisms of our society. Why does a niche industry such as this attract a certain demographic of our society more so than other demographics?

Louise posted her concern about forming such a question by saying we could have just as easily asked "Why no African-Americans". Well why not go on and ask about those who are religious vs. those who are non-religious. How about Republicans vs. Democrats?

The point I am trying to make is that I do not believe the original post was meant as any form of disrespect toward women any more than the above would have been disrespectful toward any of those groups of people. The query was simply a straightforward observation that the poster felt he would like to explore. It is an interesting topic that I myself find intriguing. What is different about men and women that drives, mostly us men, to pursue this type of behavior while women tend not to want to do so?

If Doug or any other moderators feel that this thread should also be closed so be it. However, I do believe it is a legitimate discussion that would merit some very good information for all of us. It could even make us better men for having participated. Again, assuming that everyone remain civil about the conversation. Civility must rule and I would have no qualms about a moderator shutting down a thread that lost that civility. I just did not see that being the case in the other thread.

Live long and prosper.

 

[frankh]

I think this would be interesting

I would particularly like to understand from the female perspective what the barriers to entry are?

For me I took a young lady flying the other day...Who told me after that it has been her dream to get her pilots license but its such a "mans" sport!

Needless to say I am doing all I can to encourage her to follow her dream...OH and sorry, but the Cessna 152 won't fly QUITE like this airplane just did...

Frank

 

[DeltaRomeo]

Couldn't agree more, Steve.

The original post was legitimate but quickly creeped off the original question (I didn't lock it down, but did ultimately remove it).

If it can be kept on topic, and not drift into talk of women's magainzes and purses, etc. I think the topic of 'why aren't there more women RV builders/pilots' is wonderfully interesting and appropriate!

b,
dr

 

[Louise Hose]

I agree

I was bummed, too. It got locked just when I had the chance to point out that I had just read three posts by men talking about designer purses and was really beginning to wonder....

I agree that a thoughtful discussion on the (partially perceived?) lack of women RV builder will be interesting if this community will allow one. I'll try to take the time and post my insight tonight, if this thread doesn't also get hijacked.

 

[Ron Lee]

I am a guy

I did not build my RV-6A. I probably will never build an RV but I do fly one a lot.

Perhaps my initial comment was taken as sexist by a few. There are real differences between men and women which my post pointed out. Wanting a 50-50 mix of women and men (especially a high percentage of single women) would be great but it won't happen.

One of the neatest women I have ever met flies an RV. Don't know if she built it. Does not matter. Women like her are rare.

I know guys whose wives will not even fly with them. To me there is the problem. Look at the trip I recently made and to not be able to share that with a woman you love is sad. Of course not having a woman to love is even sadder but I digress.

 

[Yukon]

Current Statistics of Women in Aviation Careers in U.S.


Pilots
Source: FAA's Aeronautical Center (December 31st, 2005 data)

All-----------------------------Women
609,737 Pilots (total) 36,584 6.00%
87,213 Students 9,717 11.14%
278 Recreational 20 7.19%
134 Sport 7 5.22%
228,619 Private 14,517 6.35%
120,614 Commercial 7,315 6.06%
141,992 Airline Transport 5,008 3.53%
9,518 Rotorcraft (only) NA
21,369 Glider (only) NA
90,555 Flight Instructors 6,067 6.70%

 

[rv9aviator]

This observation doesn't have to do with building but flying. I went through 3 flight instructors (Male) before stumbling on to a lady that was a retired public school principle. This lady was not only a good pilot but an educator. I owe my pilots license to this wonderful teacher. She will always have my admiration and respect. She made it safe, fun, and very educational, not to mention she smelled better than the other three
Our hobby would be better for it if more women were involved.

No, my bride is not standing over my shoulder.

 

[grover]

6%

if only 6% of pilots are female, what percentage of pilots are foolish enough to spend several years in their garage, fabricating an airplane? similar proportion, I bet. it is what it is.

 

[Mike S]

My wife just this last weekend crawled back into the tailcone of our 10, and hooked up misc wires, cables, and tubes.

She loved the chance to help with the plane.

I was able to finally "smoke test" the panel due to her efforts.

That said, I am pretty sure she will never build her own plane, just not interested in doing it all, but she really does like to help me work on it.

Our EAA chapter has a woman President, my wife is Treasurer, and another lady friend is Secretary.

All three of these women are pilots---at least student in my wifes case----and one is a CFI, the other is another RV builder/assistant-----repeat offender no less.

We also have a couple more women who fly RVs in our chapter.

The gals are out there, but sadly, they are a minority still, and even then, most are pilots not builders, or at least helpers not primary builders.

 

[RVbySDI]

The point I am trying to make is that I do not believe the original post was meant as any form of disrespect toward women any more than the above would have been disrespectful toward any of those groups of people. The query was simply a straightforward observation that the poster felt he would like to explore. It is an interesting topic that I myself find intriguing. What is different about men and women that drives, mostly us men, to pursue this type of behavior while women tend not to want to do so?

Given the above topic can maintain a civil air about it I would like to make some observations about this idea.

My formal education was in psychology and I spent several years as a school counselor in the public school systems. There have been a great amount of studies conducted that look at behavioral differences between males and females in a great many areas of our behavior. Whatever the studies show for explanations of behavior, suffice it to say that there is never any individual "one" motivating factor for human behavior.

In the case of examining this question of why there are not more women building airplanes (Lets leave the discussion of "flying" airplanes to another thread as I do believe that building and flying airplanes are two uniquely different concepts). It is my belief that the mixture of environmental factors combined with the innate genetic make up of the individual will dictate behavior.

Now the question becomes whether it is the genetics or the environment that influences that behavior more. This is the never ending question in psychology that is the same type of debate we see on this thread between the primer vs. no primer wars, or the alternative engine debate. Those who feel strongly about one cause will resist any notions that the other camp's ideas will hold merit.

My personal dog in this fight is that we are very very strongly influenced by our upbringing (i.e. environment). Even if there is a propensity for genetics to predispose us to act a certain way, that predisposition is often overcome by environmental influences in our lives.

As an example in my personal life, I was never predisposed to be lean, quick and agile (although I don't think I do too badly). I am a bear not a gazelle! Now in sports this can pose some problems if one wants to, say, be a sprinter. Now a bear is a fast creature but no way is it going to be able to sprint like a gazelle. That has always been my problem in sports. I have always been very athletic and, for a big guy, can be quick and agile.

My point is this. My genetic make up has not "predisposed" me to be good at many sports that require quickness and agility, over say, strength. However, during my childhood and teenage years I became deeply involved in sports that require these skills to be successful. I did not allow my genetic makeup to tell me I could not do these things. I surrounded myself with friends and experiences that allowed me to continue in those sports that I normally should not have been good at. My environment allowed me an opportunity to expand my agility and quickness skills so that I can surprise many people if they compete against me in a game of basketball, volleyball, skiing, or other sports activities that require quickness, agility, balance, etc.

So bringing this into the context of women building airplanes, I believe the truly necessary thing needed to have this disparity changed is that more girls (and I am talking about 3,4,5,6 and up aged girls) need to get some exposure to airplanes, tools, motors, mechanical things in general.

Dads, DO NOT IGNORE YOUR LITTLE GIRLS WHEN IT COMES TO MECHANICAL THINGS! Get them involved just as you would a son! Include them in the conversations. Include them in the shop activities. Keep them exploring new things.

Moms, DO NOT INSIST THAT YOUR GIRL "NOT GET DIRTY"! Let your girl get down in the dirt and explore.

These are parts of our "upbringing" that end up sending very important messages to our subconscious psyche that mold who we are for the rest of our life.

"I am a girl so therefore, I am not supposed to ______________ (you fill in the blank).
I am a boy so I am not supposed to ____________."

Or, probably more detrimental is:

"I am a girl so therefore, I am supposed to ______________ .
I am a boy so I am supposed to ____________."

These can have more influence on why women don't do this than any genetic coding.

Just some of my thoughts on this interesting topic.

 

[flion]

I think the topic is interesting because it might help find ways to make aviation more accessible to women or even just in general. My wife is not a pilot (and not likely to be due to requirements by her life insurance; she also had to give up sky diving) but she is a better riveter than I and has been a huge help to me in building this project. Another anesthesiologist in her group started a QuestAire Venture and when the company went under his wife got her A&P and finished the plane. So women can, and do, build and fly. That's not the question. The question is, how do we attract them to aviation?

 

[flytoboat]

Just something to think about - who built the airplanes during WWII? And why did those skills not carry on for women to be more involved in homebuilding? I wish this thread would have come up a year ago when I could have asked my Aunt who built airplanes during the war what her thoughts were on this.

 

[AZChandler]

woman builders

This is a good topic and worthy of civil discussion.
What topic to make my first post in!
But, I fully intend to involve my wife, daughter and son in my build.
My wife is becoming more comfortable hanging out at the airport since more wives, girlfriends, and woman pilots are there more often...

I like the post where it said more guys are builders because who else is likely to have crazy dreams. My wife's current dream is to go to Italy. Well, I can get her there with a Visa. My current dream is to build, it'll take a lot more than money!

freddie

 

[Yukon]

Just something to think about - who built the airplanes during WWII? And why did those skills not carry on for women to be more involved in homebuilding? I wish this thread would have come up a year ago when I could have asked my Aunt who built airplanes during the war what her thoughts were on this.

Nobody is saying women CAN'T build planes......what the statistics reveal is not many want to build or fly.

Airlines have been giving priority handling to all female applicants for the past 20 years or so. Still less than 4% are ATP's.

I don't write the statistics, I just know them.

 

[mike109g6]

Personally I wish that there were more women in the RV/Experimental community. It's not a genetic thing, but a behavioral thing that permeates our culture/society that prevents more women from joining. Mothers influence daughters/fathers with sons. Our culture/society(USA) expects/demands that certain learned behaviors are acquired by either gender prior to entering adulthood. Otherwise preconceived expectations are not realized resulting in negative feedback from society/peer groups about being a failure as a person or a non-comformist/deviant. Women are more than capable of building/flying. Who won WWII? Not men alone in the military, but combined with the millions of homemakers that rolled up their sleeves and worked in the defense plants building the weapons of war that the soldiers/sailors used in field. If it hadn't been for 'Rosie the riveter' and her sisters in the factories, planes would have crept off the lines at a couple a week vs 1000's in '43-'45. Rosie built P-51's, 17's, 24's,etc. Women also built all the tanks, jeeps, guns, radar,etc. But when the war was over she put down her rivet gun and went back to doing an even more important job-rebuilding a nation. Replacing the loss of life caused by the war with a new generation of Americans-us, the babyboomers. Hopefully some day our society will accept women in less traditional, stereotypical roles. The good news is that every woman that I have met in aviation to date is a gem, a real diamond. Wish I could say the same thing about every man.
Mike H 9A/8A

 

[Mike S]

Nobody is saying women CAN'T build planes......what the statistics reveal is not many want to build or fly.

Have to disagree here.

The statistics reveal not many women build or fly. The "want" factor is not addressed. I suspect that a lot of women who "want" never actually "do", specially for the flying part. As to the building?????

My wife wanted to learn to fly for many years, but never pursued it until we got together a few years ago.

 

[Louise Hose]

Part 1 - Lots of possible/probable reasons

Great post, Steve. I agree with everything you point out and suggest. And thanks to everyone else for keeping it civil this round.

I’m absolutely certain that the “answer” is complex and driven by many factors. As an academic, my approach is to propose some hypotheses. (Hypothesis: A testable idea that explains observations and previously gathered data.)

I. It’s How Women Are Wired
There is lots of evidence that the range and distribution of women’s innate interests and aptitude is different from men. Simply stated, the percentage of female babies who come to us with any potential to embrace RV building is probably lower than the percentage of male babies. Lower, but not nearly as low as the disparate ratio we see at the VAF (or even aviation).

II. The Rest – Why Aren’t There More Women RV Builders Among Them?
First off, I’m going to define “RV Builder” as a person who participated in the building of at least 49% of a completed plane. Otherwise, there is a whole other (valid) discussion about what defines a builder.

Secondly, I make an assumption that the median age for these folks is in their 50s. I’m not sure, but it’s a reasonable guess, I think. As a woman in her mid-50s and wired to be interested in RV building, I feel prepared to suggest possible, relevant differences between men and women in this age category.

i. When we 50-something women were growing up and coming of age in the 1950s through 1970s, we not only lacked support but we were often actively prevented from developing our skills and interests that lead to this avocation. Trish Russell tells the story of how her pilot-father always put her brother in the front seat of the Cessna and Trish in the back seat. Girls (including me) who expressed interest in drafting and shop classes in my high school were told with great distain by the Vice Principal, “We don’t have enough room in those classes for the boys who want to take the class. We can’t allow girls to take it!” We were ridiculed by our teachers and Girl Scout leaders for our interest. Our brothers (or male cousins) inherited Dad’s tools, even if they lived in a Manhattan loft. We were given baby dolls when we asked for an Erector Set. Thus, we (and least I) have a lot more to learn as adults than our brothers before we can seriously ponder building an RV.

ii. Woman typically have more parental time demands (and less discretionary time). On average, women spend more time with their children and also end up spending more care-taking time with their elderly parents. Folks in their 50s are often the “sandwich” group, taking care of the generations on both sides. Single mothers, especially, often spend much more time with their children than single fathers. (Please, guys, let’s not use this statement to branch off onto an ex-wife bashing thread.)

iii. Women, particularly those over 50, are likely to have less disposable funds than men due to a zillion issues (e.g., mommy-track, less-pay-for-the-same-work, less education, etc.)

iv. Women don’t find the RV or builder community welcoming or encouraging. (In my experience, I have found the RV community wonderful in person but regrettably and too often find postings on the VAF site “uncomfortable”.)

v. There just aren’t enough role models to build a critical mass that causes a tipping point.

vi. Non-builder wives may be more prone to support their spouse’s build project than non-builder husbands.

III. Women Build But Aren’t Recognized Like Men
There are women RV builders out there but very few of us can name more than one (Roberta) or two. This morning, I could name only four (Judy in TX, Bobbi in VA, Roberta, and that French lady in CA), although I’ve heard of a couple more today. Why don’t most of us know of more? Here’s some hypotheses.

i. Building an RV today takes a woman with a special spirit and they are now busy expressing that spirit somewhere besides the VAF and RV fly-ins.

ii. Women are more private or modest and don’t shine the light on themselves as much as men. (Okay, I’m not buying all these thoughts myself, but it might be….)

iii. Women are more likely to have a partner in building just for the reason others pointed out....we have a lot more potential build/life partners to chose from than men. But, having a partner is likely to dilute one’s perceived contribution. Let’s be honest with ourselves. When we hear of a father-and-son team building an RV, most of us accept that the labor and involvement was equal unless we find out otherwise. When we hear of a husband-and-wife team, most of us (yes, I include me) assume the husband did the bulk of the effort and decision-making. Heck, I posted on the VAF about the start of our panel overhaul project on MY plane and one of the first posts asked Paul why HE decided to put a Dynon in.

iv. Women tend to be with older spouses/mates. If that person is also a pilot/builder, he will (on average) have more experience and a stronger reputation than she has accumulated just because of the age difference. Thus, he will likely serve as lead on their joint projects. At the very least, people will assume that he does unless convinced otherwise. There is the additional issue that husbands may retire sooner than their wives and have more time for building. (Once both retire, their priorities might change to traveling in the RV that the husband built while they were waiting.)

v. Women partners may decline to honestly represent their contributions to the project because they perceive their male partners ego as too fragile to handle it. (I wonder if many men recognize this pervasive issue.) Many of us, especially those of us over 50 and interested in/good at sports as a child, were hammered with “Always let the boy win.” It was constantly said to me, but other women received the message more subtly.

IV. Women Build But Don’t Post On the VAF
I know this is true but I wonder if the percentage of builders who post is different by the sexes. If it is, here are some ideas on why:

i. Women commonly feel more vulnerable and are more concerned about security and privacy. They may be reading the forums but not posting (at least under a recognizable name). They may also have the e.e. cummings syndrome and post under masculine names to be taken seriously. (Okay, I’m not buying the second one as a major contributor, either.)

ii. Women prefer to put their social networking energy into the WAI or 99s instead of the RV community.

iii. Women don’t find this site comfortable for other reasons. Perhaps they find men who use an aviation site to compare notes on designer purses a bit creepy….like when I unknowingly walked into a gay (male) bar while driving through New Jersey. I have no objection to those folks having their place, but I didn’t feel comfortable hanging around.

 

[rv9aviator]

I totally agree that enviroment has a lot to do with everything we all do. My six year old grandaughter asked if she could go to my tool and die shop with me once on a weekend and although very surprised I said sure. I was setting up a Computer controled wire EDM machine and she watched for a bit then asked if she could push some buttons too. OK, surprised again, and again I said SURE!. I explained exactly what I was doing and what the buttons she pushed would do. We both had a great experience and you could just see the wheels turning in her head. BTW, one of my sons is a pilot and both are rabid motorcycle nuts.

 

[Louise Hose]

Part 2 - Lots of possible/probable reasons

This discussion has been interesting to me because it brings me back ten, fifteen, and twenty years ago when I heard the same claims about women's lack of interest in caving, mountaineering, rock climbing, etc. It helped me realize that I haven't heard such discussions in quite a few years in my caving life as there are MANY strong and competent women active in almost all aspects of caving these days. It took about 25 years of serious hand-wringing for us to get to this point, but it has happened and I hadn't taken the time to really appreciate that change.

Why has aviation taken longer? I don't know. Maybe, in the airline industry that Yukon mentioned, the economic incentives to protect turf has made it harder to move quickly. In building, I suspect it is in part because the major contributors tend to be much older than the major players in caving. Thankfully, young women of today will be much more prepared and empowered to pursue whatever dreams they have than my generation. The world (even the U.S.) is not perfect for women, but it's a whole lot better than it was 30 years ago. One thing I'm sure of, we will see lots more women builders in the future.

 

[Norman CYYJ]

When I got my first RV kit my daughter was hanging around and watching. I asked her if she would help with the inventory. She was happy to do that,then I asked her to put all the rivets and hardware in small drawers and label them. This she did and enjoyed that also. She kept coming back to check on the progress after schools and on weekends. So one day I needed some help and asked her, she was delighted. When I no longer needed her help she stayed. Well a long story short she ended up bucking just about every rivet in that RV-6. She measured and drilled holes. She had a great time. Well I ended up naming the plane after her and she was delighted. Miss Irene. When the project was done she found herself a job helping with general duties with a local aircraft mechanic. Later she ended up as a line girl at the local flying school. Does she now work in the aviation industry no, life has taken her in a different direction but ask her about planes she'll talk your arm off. So fathers don't think that maybe your daughter might not be interested you might be surprised as I was.

 

[carolsyracuse]

My two cents

I would like to add my perspective to this thread. I am the wife (and building partner) of a 7 time builder. There are parts of the project that I feel I can contribute to and parts about which I am clueless. I am not able to visualize things in 3 dimensions like Vic can. I debur, clean up, do the upholstery and interior and lend moral support. I also fully participate in the paint job. I prep the booth and the pieces. We tape and paper all parts together. Vic does the spraying and I do the light positioning and booth support. I also make the decision about which pieces get repainted.
When Vic is doing the wiring I stay away. It is the task that is the most attention consuming part.
On the first couple of airplanes I did nothing but the seat cushions due to the fact that our children were young. Now that our children are grown I have contributed more to the building process. Two of our aircraft were kitfoxes. On those I was able to contribute more to the process as I felt alot more comfortable with an iron than I do with a bucking bar.
I have no desire to be a pilot. I believe that to be a pilot you have to have the PASSION to be a good pilot. I do not have the passion. I love to ride along though. We have had a wonderful time sharing aviation.
One other comment. I don't necessarily believe that building airplanes is a male vs female thing. We have two sons-one has been taking apart toilets etc his whole life to see how things work- I can see him having the ability to build an airplane. The other son is more like me-not technical, not able to visualize how things work. It takes a certain kind of person to have the technical know how to build airplanes.
It takes another kind of person to have the perserverance to FINISH!!

 

[Coinneach]

Single mothers, especially, often spend much more time with their children than single fathers. (Please, guys, let?s not use this statement to branch off onto an ex-wife bashing thread.)

No bashing here. I'd just like to point that this single father, while not spending nearly enough time with his daughter, spends what little time we do have together going over preview plans, working on paint schemes, and designing panels... all at the daughter's suggestion.

I have a feeling my kid's going to be very popular at the FBO.

 

[N395V]

I agree it could be an emotionally charged topic that could fall head long into some very PC driven statements and some down right rude behavior but I believe all of us can recognize that and behave like gentlemen.

Couldn't agree more, Steve.

The original post was legitimate but quickly creeped off the original question (I didn't lock it down, but did ultimately remove it).

If it can be kept on topic, and not drift into talk of women's magainzes and purses, etc. I think the topic of 'why aren't there more women RV builders/pilots' is wonderfully interesting and appropriate!

I was bummed, too. It got locked just when I had the chance to point out that I had just read three posts by men talking about designer purses and was really beginning to wonder.

I am the one who locked it down before Doug deleted it for the very reasons stated above. It had rapidly transitioned to purses and womens magazines which I believe would have rapidly deteriorated into a "a womans place is" discussion.

As gentlemen we have not been able to keep a discussion about non traditional engines or aviation related lawsuits civil. Given where the earlier thread was headed it was about to become less than civil or gentlemanly.

So as Doug suggests lets see if we can keep this thread on topic and gentlemanly.

 

[RVbySDI]

Nobody is saying women CAN'T build planes......what the statistics reveal is not many want to build or fly.

Airlines have been giving priority handling to all female applicants for the past 20 years or so. Still less than 4% are ATP's.

I don't write the statistics, I just know them.

My wife wanted to learn to fly for many years, but never pursued it until we got together a few years ago.

Mike's post in reply to Yukon strikes at the underlying issue here. Yukon, I agree with what you are saying about the statistics. However, this discussion is really looking at why those statistics exist. And to that effect, I believe Mark's comment holds a great deal of information leading to that why. Or perhaps I should say his wife's motivation leads us to why. Her reasons for not pursuing her desires until she met him is the real question.

Not that I can answer for Mark's wife but I believe it boils down to intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is going to come from those deep seeded emotional connections that we all develop that drive us toward our behavior. Why is Yukon, Mike, me or any of you driven to build while Mark's wife, my wife, or hundreds of thousands or millions of other women in the world not so driven? They have had specific lessons taught to them in overt and many in covert ways that told them this was not something they should be doing.

If all of us wish to be honest about ourselves ask yourself this question. Think of a time early in your life in which you had some interaction with a significant parent figure in your life where that parent either supported you or did not support you when you were working with your hands on something. The memory could come from any time at all. Just think about it a minute and I am sure each one of us could find an example in our lives when a dad, brother, grandfather, teacher, friend, even a mother, grandmother or some other female or male parental figure supported you in "getting your hands dirty". Can you think of any event(s) when someone supported you in your attempts to work on some mechanical project?

We all can think of some event or group of events that led us to believe that we could build that baseball bat in shop class; We could fix the wheel on our wagon; Someone let us hang around under the car while they crawled under it to loosen the plug on the oil pan.

"HERE SON, HOLD THAT WRENCH THIS WAY!!"

"LET ME SHOW YOU HOW DAD CHANGES THE OIL IN THE CAR!"

"NO SON, THAT IS THE PIPE WRENCH. I NEED THE CRESCENT WRENCH."

"SON, HAND ME THAT 5/8 INCH OPEN ENDED WRENCH"

Someone in our childhoods allowed us the opportunity to observe, to learn, to participate in activities that taught us how to not only manipulate and use tools but also how to think about tools and mechanical things. In addition to allowing us the opportunity, these people in our lives also supported us in those activities. Without that support and encouragement I don't think any of us would be who we are now.

Now think about your sister, your wife or any of the other 50% of the world population you may know that are not men. How often do you think someone supported them or encouraged them when they went out to the garage and grabbed a crescent wrench and asked: "Can I help?"

Now most of us are going to say something like: "I never had any females in my life even show interest in wanting to do that". These are usually the posters who say: "women just want to go off and shop for some frilly fru fru thing instead of wanting to drive rivets". Well, my contention is, if that female early on in her life had been given loving support and encouragement for being with dad out in the shop and "helping" him do this or that, she would, today, be more likely to be a woman who "WANTS" to work with her hands.

On the other hand, if she had someone in her life give her loving support and encouragement for being in the kitchen and baking cakes and cookies (by the way, doing so takes just as much mathematical skills, scientific knowledge, mechanical aptitude as working in a shop does), then she is going to be more likely to WANT to work in that type of environment. Same with sewing, art, music or any number of other skills we tend to think of as being more feminine than masculine.

And that is the real underlying issue right there. Our society constantly bombards all of us with these subliminal messages about what is appropriate male behavior and what is appropriate female behavior. If you don't believe that, just think about your own attitude about some task you equate with being feminine and not masculine. I am sure you can think of an example but let me just throw an example out there. How about doing the laundry! I just pulled that one out of thin air but don't we men tend to think of that as "WOMAN'S WORK"? Now the question is why? Why do we think "doing the laundry" is women's work? Because we have had all sorts of examples shown to us in our lives where everyone else in our society shows us and/or says to us that "doing the laundry" is something that women do and not men.

Here is another not quite so subtle one. What do we think about when we see a guy that works as an Interior Designer? Or what about a male Hair Dresser? How about a Nurse? These are all professions we equate to women's jobs. We all have some stereotypes of what kind of guy works in these environments and what type of skills are needed to do those jobs. And we ultimately evaluate those skills differently based upon our perception of what those individuals are like.

Our perceptions of these men are going to be based upon the years of overt and covert messages that shape our conscious thought. That in turn dictates to us how we will behave when interacting with those particular individuals.

We ultimately do the same thing with girls and boys in their upbringing. And, not only do we do it with our precious children and grandchildren, but we do it to every other boy and girl we ever come into contact with. It is a pervasive cycle that we do not even know we are involved in. It is this behavior that will push a girl or boy toward or away from some particular type of behavior. That includes the behavior of "WANTING" to build an airplane.

 

[rv6ejguy]

The post by Louise Hose was probably one of the most concise and well thought out responses I have ever read on VAF and certainly gives me as a male some perspective on the difficulties women face in any male dominated endeavor.

Thank you.

BTW in the canard world, the team of Chrissi and Randi (Cozy Girrrls) http://www.cozygirrrl.com/ make most of us pre-punched RV builders look like useless dweebs. Ya think building an RV is hard? Look at a Cozy project sometime. These two do almost everything and even offer their own line of parts for the Cozy.

Rare yes, but given the right opportunities, women can do it too. Keep at it ladies.

 

[Shockwave]

Being in my early/mid 30's I'm probably one of the younger ones in here?

None of my drafting / tech classes gave special treatment to or harrased females. They weren't looked at as being different, and it was assumed they chose it because they were interested in it.

In engineering at ISU it was pretty much the same thing. They really pushed affirmative action, but that was more at the university level. In the classroom everyone had to do the same work and nobody was preferred over anyone else.

Don't feel too bad. IT has a very low percentage of females as well and they don't know why either.

 

[David-aviator]

There is nothing mysterious about the question - men and women are different. Period. I suppose the discussion could go on ad infinitum as to why this is so but until the gene code is totally understood, there are no definitive answers. That's how it is.

My wife likes to plant plants, tap dance, play bridge and keep our home ship shape. I like to mess around with airplanes, read history and think about the universe. We are as different in some areas as can be. In some areas we are not different- like religion and politics.

I do not care why she does not want to drive rivets. If we knew the answers to every question about who we are and why we are what we are, life would be boring for sure. I'm in favor of leaving it be. I like it the way it is.

 

[jclark]

Exposure, Opportunity and Support ...

To Doug and the other moderators.

<<SNIP>>

Louise posted her concern about forming such a question by saying we could have just as easily asked "Why no African-Americans". Well why not go on and ask about those who are religious vs. those who are non-religious. How about Republicans vs. Democrats?


Live long and prosper.

<<<SNIP>>

First, there have been lots of wonderful comments posted on this subject and I think we all owe a "tip of the hat" to Louise for her post.

In the earlier (removed) posts, I mentioned that my partner in the RV6, Patty, holds the Repairman's Certificate. Yes we worked on it together, but she is the "builder". And I have proudly said that to (and surprised) many an onlooker at airshows.

I am working on another RV but the 1000+ hours of flying the 6 have made for slow going in getting it finished.

It is my belief that Exposure, Opportunity and Support have a lot to do with the question raised.

1. Exposure ...

Often times people of a particular group who do not seem to do as well or as much in an area are that way because for certain environmental reasons they never had the **exposure** to the supporting elements of the activity. If you have never had the chance to even BE AROUND an airplane, the odds are you will not be building one! But if Mom or Dad had you flying within the first months of birth and you have been around other builders and have seen that it CAN be done, I think the odds go up.

2. Opportunity ...

Sometimes even after the "exposure", one does not have the opportunity. Certain segments of society have less "opportunity" to take on particular tasks because of other things in their lives. Yes we all have priorities to set but as someone has mentioned, it is more likely that IF there are kids in the family, the mother often-times ends up with more than a "fair share" of the time raising them. This is not as easy to set aside as other "chores". Furthermore, for some it is difficult to break into certain "circles". I have witnessed this quite often in my life (and fortunately overcame such most of the time). Not an excuse, just an observation for some cases.

3. Support ...

Now once you have had the exposure and have been presented with or have **MADE** the opportunity, I think there still is an element of support that is needed. Not just the support from this fine community, but support from those who are close by. If you have not been surrounded by people who have been blessed with #1 and #2 above, you are less likely to get the support you probably need.

I came up short on all of the above until I became a part of our local EAA Chapter and became friends with some people who have been key to my aviation life. They helped me with the exposure. I had to help create the opportunity and they gave me lots of support. As a result I have tried to pass that on to others as much as possible and I think that it helped in some small way to add another female to the class of "builders".

So whenever there is such an opportunity before you, try to remember such and extend a helping hand. Then I think we will see more "builders" from many more "persuasions".

By the way, there was no need to mention it here before but to tie in with the prior article, I am African-American. There are in fact a few of us who are builders as well, and I think a lot of the reasons for there not being more, are the same as the ones that apply to women as well.

Gotta get back to finishing my RV as soon as I finish helping my friend with his.

James

 

[mike109g6]

Just something to think about - who built the airplanes during WWII? And why did those skills not carry on for women to be more involved in homebuilding? I wish this thread would have come up a year ago when I could have asked my Aunt who built airplanes during the war what her thoughts were on this.

Don,
I had a hospice patient at the VA that was a WAF pilot during the war. She ferried everything that flew all over the world. B-17's to England, B-24's to North Africa & Italy. P-38's to Alaska, 29's to the Pacific. This woman flew everything, in all kinds of weather, unarmed, never had a crack-up, got shot at by AAA and enemy fighters, given multiple commendations, and amassed over 6,000 logged PIC hrs in just over 2 years, '43-'45. After V-J Day the Army Air Corps took her wings, would not let her continue to fly, and told her to 'go home and have some babies'. Her words. She tried the civilian aviation industry and was told that it's a man's job to fly. In 1947 she stopped trying, and never flew again. Two days before she died, she told me that the only thing that she regretted was that she never got to fly a jet. She was awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action while ferring a B-24 to North Africa that was attacked by a gaggle of 109's; 2 months after her death in 1998.
Mike H 9A/8A

 

[David-aviator]

BTW in the canard world, the team of Chrissi and Randi (Cozy Girrrls) http://www.cozygirrrl.com/ make most of us pre-punched RV builders look like useless dweebs. Ya think building an RV is hard? Look at a Cozy project sometime. These two do almost everything and even offer their own line of parts for the Cozy.

Rare yes, but given the right opportunities, women can do it too. Keep at it ladies.

I've been to their home (shop) several times and could not help but notice a Mazda rotary engine on a stand in the dining room.

Randi is an excellent welder. Chrissi is an electronics guru. Both are very competent composit builders. The highly modified Cozy MKIV is fun to look at and a work in progress.

 

[Mike Armstrong]

Don,
I had a hospice patient at the VA that was a WAF pilot during the war. She ferried everything that flew all over the world. B-17's to England, B-24's to North Africa & Italy. P-38's to Alaska, 29's to the Pacific. This woman flew everything, in all kinds of weather, unarmed, never had a crack-up, got shot at by AAA and enemy fighters, given multiple commendations, and amassed over 6,000 logged PIC hrs in just over 2 years, '43-'45. After V-J Day the Army Air Corps took her wings, would not let her continue to fly, and told her to 'go home and have some babies'. Her words. She tried the civilian aviation industry and was told that it's a man's job to fly. In 1947 she stopped trying, and never flew again. Two days before she died, she told me that the only thing that she regretted was that she never got to fly a jet. She was awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action while ferring a B-24 to North Africa that was attacked by a gaggle of 109's; 2 months after her death in 1998.
Mike H 9A/8A

That is a travesty in my opinion.

Several years ago I had the privilege of meeting several WASP's at an Oshkosh display honoring them. Among the aircraft models they flew (heavy bombers, high performance fighters, cargo carriers, ect) and their biography's there were life sized cutouts of these young gal's as they were during their WASP years. I could still see that glint of daring in their eyes as I met each one. I was a little bummed that there were not very many people visiting their display. I actually felt bad when I left.

 

[rv6ejguy]

I'm sure many of you have seen this site: http://www.rv7.us/a_home.htm

For any women would be builders, perhaps this will be the inspiration to order a kit and get started.