Rivethead

Well Known Member
So I'm starting down the wiring path but I'm really hesitant to do much more than noodle on the schematics until I figure out which wire crimps I should use. I know there must be some better suited than others. Beside terminal connectors I'll need to do pins for the avionics. I'm interested to see what ya'll use. What is the skinny on the use of solder?
 
Jim,

There's a doc here called Connector Service Manual that has some good generic info on using the different connectors.

Marc
 
Good Luck

Wire terminations is a career field that would be difficult to cover here - well maybe George could. Your choices will be guided by your electrical/ electronic system design choices. Generally, crimping is more reliable and requires less skill. Many connectors require special pins and crimpers and are best installed and removed with specific insertion and extraction tools - I have inserted by pushing on the wire and I have made my own extraction tools but it is best to use the correct tools for the job. Proper crimpers are sinfully expensive (hundreds of dollars in some cases) but you do not want to start the job with low skill and bad tools. Different wire gauges require different pins but sometimes the pins are dictated by the application and you may have to double back stripped wire ends to mate with oversized pins or tin and file and fit oversize wires into small pins. Buy extra terminals, pins and if you plan to solder - extra connectors. Relatively cheap 15 pin "D" connectors with plastic inserts can be bought from electronic stores but soldering one up and still have your pins aligned is a chalenge. Mating it with another connector during the solder operation will help if you don't dwell on the pin so long that you melt the insert in the other connector as well. NASA has certification programs to assure that the assemblers have the required skill and knowledge before they are allowed to work on flight hardware. When I went to work on the Mercury Project in 1959 there was no certification program. The wire bundles were made with a vulnerable but light weight gray insulated hookup wire and the problems were many. I was a Radio, Electrical and Electronics inspector but a year or so into the program all of the inspectors and electricians had to go to solder school and be NASA certified. We learned a lot and things got a lot better. In that little story is another obscure point, use the best wire you can get for the job. During the Clinton Administration and the reinventing of Government, MIL specs were killed for economic reasons. The old ones are still there and they can be used for control of procurement and design but they ceased to be maintained and qualified product lists (QPLs) went away. Still, supplier's stated compliance with appropriate Mil Specs are the best assurance you can get of good quality wire. I bought all of my wire from Aircraft Spruce. OK, like I implied in the beginning this is a big deal and you are right in thinking seriously about it up front. I went to Washington University in St. Louis for many years got my degree, passed the Missouri Professional Engineering Exam and worked in Aerospace for 50 years before retiring but I am sure there are many much more qualified folks that will be willing to help you with your electrical termination problems. But, instead of learning it all, I think you would be better served if you design your system and ask specific application questions and learn as you go. Your connector and terminal set will not be the full spectrum and your hardware choices are going to drive your needs. Unfortunately, without a formal training program you are going to have to learn on the job.

Bob Axsom
 
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Have what you need!

We have the Genuine (no pun intended) AMP terminals in affordable size packages and the correct tool to crimp them with.

The AMP 59824-1 crimper. Not Cheap, in quality or cost, it is worth the price as there is not a better crimper for the higher quality terminals than this one.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/store.asp?alternate=59824-1

I will try to get a picture of it soon and post on the basic image of the same part of the Webstore.

It is worth the money to not have any weak links in your electrical system, beside engineered fuses, or breakers.

I will choose Breakers and well installed high quality terminals.
 
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I'd crimp instead of solder - it's much faster, easier and more reliable IMHO. You can get good tools from B&C and Stein as well as others on the list. Don't buy the Radio Shack junk - you have a lot of money tied up in you RV so don't skimp on tools.
Danny
 
GAHco = Good Deal!

We have the Genuine (no pun intended) AMP terminals in affordable size packages and the correct tool to crimp them with.

The AMP 59824-1 crimper. Not Cheap, in quality or cost, it is worth the price as there is not a better crimper for the higher quality terminals than this one.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/store.asp?alternate=59824-1

I will try to get a picture of it soon and post on the basic image of the same part of the Webstore.

It is worth the money to not have any weak links in your electrical system, beside engineered fuses, or breakers.

I will choose Breakers and well installed high quality terminals.

Search for that PN at Mouser and you'll find that the same crimper is quite a bit more $$.

Getting a perfect crimped connection is not hard; just needs quality terminals crimped with matching tooling.
 
Wiring

Get the book by Bob Nuckolls -- "The AeroElectric Connection". Best electrical advice on the planet.

Mike
 
I was very concerned about the crimp on connectors even using high quality crimpers. It seemed if you worked the wire after you crimped it it sometimes would loosen up. I had many experienced builders show me how to crimp, but the result was often the same, the connection would still loosen up. As I consider the electrical systems (all glass) perhaps the most important (extremely fearful of electrical fire), I finally settled on the following method and it seems to work, I haven;t been able to pull off any of the connectors and I have tried.

I simply slide on about a 3/8" inch of shrink tube over the wire and then a 1/2" piece that will barely go over the connector body, crimp the connector, slide the smaller piece up behind the connector tight, slide the larger piece up over the body of the connector, then shrink all with a heat gun. The connector may loosen, but it is going to hold the wire in place touching the connector. If you use clear heat shrink for the smaller, you can also label each wire using about a 9 font for the label and slide it under the heat shrink for future tracing of wires. I did every connector on my plane this way, yes it takes little longer, but I think it was worth it for piece of mind.

No Smoke Yet.
 
Necessary, but not sufficient

"I simply slide on about a 3/8" inch of shrink tube over the wire and then a 1/2" piece that will barely go over the connector body, crimp the connector, slide the smaller piece up behind the connector tight, slide the larger piece up over the body of the connector, then shrink all with a heat gun. The connector may loosen, but it is going to hold the wire in place touching the connector."

I'll give this an "a" for effort, but the notion that one merely needs to keep the conductors touching is erroneous. A proper crimp creates what is known as a "gas tight" connection. This keeps corrosion from forming between the conductors.

If you want a long term connection, you need to adjust the crimpers and / or the materials to achieve a solid crimp.

Well, one other option would be to have the wire and terminals plated with a noble metal, silver or gold are commonly used. :rolleyes:
 
The crimps I made are "solid", I was just trying to mitigate the effects of longterm vibration on the crimp by solidly coupling the wire and connector body via heat shrink. Works for me.
 
The crimps I made are "solid", I was just trying to mitigate the effects of longterm vibration on the crimp by solidly coupling the wire and connector body via heat shrink. Works for me.

The backshell assembly is very important. Its main function it to keep the wires from flexing at the point of the crimp. Before Raytheon came out with connectors that had reliable crimp systems and associated connectors we used to pot the back end of the connectors in high vibration areas with this rubber material that was a bear to dig out if needed. Good crimps come from good tools...and good removal of insulation. Make your stripped ends to specs given by the connector manuf. and don't nick the wires when stripping. NASA soldering cert was hard to get...there was no margin for error in the test. Very tight standards.
 
Integrity !

The crimps I made are "solid", I was just trying to mitigate the effects of longterm vibration on the crimp by solidly coupling the wire and connector body via heat shrink. Works for me.

I bought one of the AMP 59824-1 Crimpers from my business so I could start the first bit of wiring in my wings.

As a test I took some mw22759/16-18-9 wire (18 ga) and crimped on an AMP 51863 ( #6 stud to 22-18ga wire)(Red) to it, I have not had a nice wire tool like that before. I pulled as hard as I could hold the wire wit my hand and a small screwdriver through the eye and it held superbly.

I see where heat shrink would help with keeping stuff out of the terminal joint, but my experience is that it does not offer much support.

The benefit of the support of both the bare wire and the insulation being precision crimped was amazing. It sure did provide strain relief on the assembly. The tool was not cheap even at the store owner price, but I am looking forward to doing more wiring with confidence.

Their are some pull test specs for those who are interested , but its been a long time since I have seen them. Does anyone know what spec it is?:confused:
I would like to post it on my webstore as Tech Info.:)
 
Specs. and numbers....

...
Their are some pull test specs for those who are interested , but its been a long time since I have seen them. Does anyone know what spec it is?:confused:
I would like to post it on my webstore as Tech Info.:)

Tom... this article discusses why Mil-Spec terminals are better and gives hint on installation...

http://www.mechanicsupport.com/articleTerminals.html

Page 8 of this document gives the Pull Specs for MIL-T-2978 terminals - these are the ring type terminals, and are shown in the above article.

http://www.wiringharnessnews.com/Articles/Pull_Testing.pdf

The spec referenced on the same page is "MIL-DTL-22520G CRIMPING TOOLS, WIRE TERMINATION, GENERAL SPECIFICATION FOR" and should cover the D-Sub connector type pins.

As an example, 22g wire in D-Sub pins should be good for a 12 lb. pull - and good for a 15 lb. pull in a ring type terminal (perhaps higher due to the insulation crimp?)

All 126 pages of the high-end NASA spec. are here.... just in case you have trouble sleeping...:)

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.pdf

gil A
 
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Good terminals, sized right with good tool is all you need

So I'm starting down the wiring path but I'm really hesitant to do much more than noodle on the schematics until I figure out which wire crimps I should use. I know there must be some better suited than others. Beside terminal connectors I'll need to do pins for the avionics. I'm interested to see what ya'll use. What is the skinny on the use of solder?
R head I did not read all the replies but I grew up miss trusting crimp terminals, but if you use good quality crimp terminals (Amp or 3m) not hardware store crimps of unknown quality and a good crimping tool they work great. I admit in my youth I did not trust crimp terminals for several reasons: I used cheap crimp terminals, cheap tools and I did not know what I was doing and why.

As some might have mentioned solder can wick into the strands of the wire and make it act as one be lump. One big solid wire is more fatigue prone than a bunch of single strands free to move relative to each other. Crimp terminals are made to be totally acceptable and sound with out soldering.

Good quality crimp terminals with a good crimp tool not only crimps the metal part of the crimp terminal but the outer plastic sleeve, which acts as a strain relief, since it gets crimped as well. The colorful plastic slave is more than window dressing. Now if you want to put more stuff on it you can. What is stuff? (heat shrink and solder)

If a wire does not move, it will not fatigue, crimp or soldered. Of couse with vibration almost everything moves even if only a little.

Heat shrink sleeves will help reduce and support wire out of a connector, but in 10-20 yrs, I'm not sure how the heat shrink will hold up? The plastic sleeves on crimp terminals have fairly stiff plastic that should stay put once clamped down.

Heat shrink is more flexible, but if you double triple it, it becomes too stiff. Of couse if too stiff where it stops makes a hard point where wire can flex and fail? You can also add time to build, weight and cost heat shrinking like crazy. A little is fine.

Some times I find my self splicing two wires together, soldering them together with a few heat shrink tubes overlapped. Crimp butt splices are a little bulky. If it's a straight piece of wire with heat shrink, supported (no movement), its will last forever, wicked solder or not. However if there are lots of flexing near the solder joint it might not last even with heat shrink. You have to pick and choose.

You will see I mention supporting wiring. That is part of the goodness puzzle.

Some like put a dab of solder on the end of crimp terminals? I say belt and suspenders. If you are doing it for fun great. If you are soldering to fix your crimp terminal installation which you think is marginal or you have no faith in, than that is the wrong reason. Get the best quality crimp terminals, sized for the wire and install per proper procedures with a good crimp terminal tool. Learn how to use it. Also stripping the wire is critical. You not only need the right amount stripped but you can nick some of the strands if not careful. Something to avoid as well. You want all those strands working.

As far as avionics there are two types commonly used, mini pins (DIN or computer plugs) and molex connectors. They are different than regular wiring crimp terminals but the same rules apply, good pins and the proper tool for the job. Molex are the most challenge for me but they are not hard. The "real" top dollar genuine molex crimper is big bucks. I was able to borrow a "Molex" tool. As far as pin connectors you can get a good inexpensive tool.

DIN or computer type plugs commong with many avionics now a days can be found in solder type. They work fine and you can heat shrink and with the shell back and more support it should last forever. However soldering all those little pins is place is a fun challenge. Pins you crimp and plug in.

Just go to Stein Air for your electrical connector and tool needs. They have it all.
 
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Thanks for the help on the Specs./ here she is!

Tom... this article discusses why Mil-Spec terminals are better and gives hint on installation...

http://www.mechanicsupport.com/articleTerminals.html

Page 8 of this document gives the Pull Specs for MIL-T-2978 terminals - these are the ring type terminals, and are shown in the above article.

http://www.wiringharnessnews.com/Articles/Pull_Testing.pdf

The spec referenced on the same page is "MIL-DTL-22520G CRIMPING TOOLS, WIRE TERMINATION, GENERAL SPECIFICATION FOR" and should cover the D-Sub connector type pins.

As an example, 22g wire in D-Sub pins should be good for a 12 lb. pull - and good for a 15 lb. pull in a ring type terminal (perhaps higher due to the insulation crimp?)

All 126 pages of the high-end NASA spec. are here.... just in case you have trouble sleeping...:)

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.pdf

gil A

Thanks Gil for the help on the specs, that will help all of us.

Here are the pictures I promised this threads readers of the Crimp tool, She's a Beauty.

I knew you would fall in love, once you saw her.

59824-1_3view.jpg
 
Hands on classes...helpful vendors...

I attended/recommend two classes at Sun N Fun this year that I hope are repeated at least in quality, if not with the same instructor, at Air Venture 2008, OSH. First was a class on basic soldering skills, aircraft specific. Second was a class on basic avionics and electrical wiring for aircraft. I've been involved in amateur radio, i.e. soldering, volts, amps, etc., for over 25 years, yet still found both these classes highly valuable, particularly in the areas that were aircraft specific. Also covered was why certain tools and materials are preferred and why others should be avoided. Examples include why one style stripper will damage teflon wire, and another will not. Why one style CRIMPER is preferred over another. Or, why use mil-spec non PVC wire, wire that is stranded for aircraft, not solid, etc.. Why not to solder, etc..

Also, I would heavily lean toward vendors that not only advertise on this site, but that take the time to follow threads like this, and provide much helpful information.

Vendors, professionals, educators, we appreciate the help!!

Planning a panel upgrade here when my wallet and time will allow....
 
Thanks for the compliments!

I attended/recommend two classes at Sun N Fun this year that I hope are repeated at least in quality, if not with the same instructor, at Air Venture 2008, OSH. First was a class on basic soldering skills, aircraft specific. Second was a class on basic avionics and electrical wiring for aircraft. I've been involved in amateur radio, i.e. soldering, volts, amps, etc., for over 25 years, yet still found both these classes highly valuable, particularly in the areas that were aircraft specific. Also covered was why certain tools and materials are preferred and why others should be avoided. Examples include why one style stripper will damage teflon wire, and another will not. Why one style CRIMPER is preferred over another. Or, why use mil-spec non PVC wire, wire that is stranded for aircraft, not solid, etc.. Why not to solder, etc..

Also, I would heavily lean toward vendors that not only advertise on this site, but that take the time to follow threads like this, and provide much helpful information.

Vendors, professionals, educators, we appreciate the help!!

Planning a panel upgrade here when my wallet and time will allow....

Thanks for the compliment!

I also thank the people who have started and added to this and others like this threaded.

I am learing things about building my RV6 that I would not have otherwise had the chance to do.

Best of all. this happens in a helpful and friendly environment, from people who have already done it or are currently involved.

I look forward to when my Bird will fly, I want to show up at some of the fly-in's and meet you good folks face to face, and see all your aluminum collections in a FUNctional state.
 
I'll second the comments on the Aeroelectric Connection book...read it backwards and forwards several times. Having said that, on my own aircraft, I found it necessary to use several types of connector styles as well as soldering. The comments above about gas tight connections are great, as are the comments about supporting wire connections and terminal ends. You'll find that some switches and connections (like the back end of a Trutrak Autopilot) will require soldering small wires. I am a stickler about using heat shrink (sometimes even two layers) as a means of supporting these very small soldered connections. No matter what type of crimping tool you use (and I hope its a ratcheting type), make sure you give every connection the "pull" test, that will save you uncountable headaches on down the road. Good connections begin at the point where you strip the insulation from the wire, make sure you understand what you should and should not try to do. Get the book, read the book and then it's "one connection at a time."
 
So now I'm further along in my efforts. To my disappointment I've discovered that the 1/4” fast on connectors I own are single crimp rather than double crimp. My preference is for a double crimp type connectors throughout. My question is has anyone used shrink tube to place a hold on the insulation. This seems to be what Chuck is doing and I may do just that rather than place another out of town order.

EDIT: In an effort to be clear I've gone to my shop and tried this idea out. Pictured below are two examples, the one on the left has two small diameter heat shrink stuffed under the bell shaped end of the insulator so is a little fatter and a bit tighter. I also took a look to see what Bob Nuckolls book had to say along this line. From what I've read either of these connectors would fill the contract.

concrimp.jpg
 
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The Mil Spec crimpers are nice, but to be blunt - you don't need to spend $275 on a crimper to get the job done correctly. Bob Nuckolls will flatly tell you there is rarely a need to spend anywhere near that much on crimpers. Thanks to him, over the years we've tested and used almost every crimper out there, and due to our previous lives working on 747's and such we posses a collection of tools that cover almost every base.

In the end, unless you're doing this thousands upon thousands of times a month, a cheaper tool will suffice just fine...a'la Nuckolls recommendation.

That being said, even though I'm not a fan of the high priced tools for the average builder, I am a fan of using the good components. Again, we've tried nearly every type of ring terminal out there, but have finally settled on only using AMP PIDG terminals purchased directly from Tyco. Good tools are important, so we only sell what we use and can attest to their acceptability.

The shrink tube trick is ok and will work fine assuming you take the time to do it properly and is typically used where you have un-insulated terminals or terminals with no insulation crimp....but the easier thing to do is just buy the right terminals to begin with. If my friendly colleague's terminals are affordable, then ours at half the price must be a freakin steal!

As stated previously, the pull test is important. Even today, I routinely walk by panels on the bench here in the shop and randomly tug on terminals just to keep an eye on my techs. You should do the same with your crimps. You don't need to measure pounds of pull, just make sure the darned wire isn't loose or falls out.

People have died because of bad crimps, so it is an important thing. I don't want to downplay the importance of good crimps, but I still maintain that purchasing the mil-spec tooling is pretty much not necessary for the average homebuilder. Many times the difference between the more "affordable" crimpers (that have been tested/used by people like Bob and myself) make very good crimps for several thousand terminals...whereas the Mil Spec tools make good crimps for 10's or 100's of thousands of terminals. If you purchase a tested tool you'll be fine and unless you're a professionall avionics shop that does 10's of thousands of crimps per month the cheaper tools should last the average homebuilder their lifetime.

My 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
 
I can attest that the "cheap" crimpers and terminals that Stein sells in his wiring kits has never failed a pull test. Although I got a few things I probably won't use, I think the kit was a good deal. (And, to be fair, they were more than happy to subtract anything I didn't want. I just didn't know what I didn't want at the time I ordered it. :rolleyes:)
 
crimp and solder?

A few years back I heard a talk from a professional avionics installer, and learned quite a few tips.

One of his points was that he usually soldered his crimped joints. His reasoning was that corrosion can eventually put some resistance into a crimped joint and vibration or other repetitive physical forces can cause intermittent opens, etc.

I'm not nearly ready for wiring, but barring a good argument to the contrary, I'll probably crimp and solder both.

Regards all - - Tom in Sacramento
 
Same thing....

A few years back I heard a talk from a professional avionics installer, and learned quite a few tips.

One of his points was that he usually soldered his crimped joints. His reasoning was that corrosion can eventually put some resistance into a crimped joint and vibration or other repetitive physical forces can cause intermittent opens, etc.

I'm not nearly ready for wiring, but barring a good argument to the contrary, I'll probably crimp and solder both.

Regards all - - Tom in Sacramento

I was surprised too when the avionics guy at a big C dealer in Tucson did the same thing.

He was well trained by the Air Force at D-M in Tucson, and touched each crimped joint with a soldering iron and some fine solder as he rebuilt the panel on a neighbors C-414.

gil A
 
Get the double-crimp terminals

Rivethead,

Don't skimp on the terminals. In my opinion, after just finishing wiring my panel, I would absolutely not rely on those single crimp terminals. Your heat shrink method looks pretty, but spend the $30 it will take and get the right terminals from Stein. Order some extras so you don't feel inclined to skimp when you run out and need only a couple more. The grip is far superior. You don't want to run the risk of energized wires coming unglued from the connectors behind your panel where you can't see them and causing all sorts of electrical gremlin issues.

Concerning the crimpers, the $30 version (ratcheting) do great.
 
Thanks for the posts so far ya'll. I find it very helpful as I noodle things over to see what others have done or think. As to the subject of double crimp or single crimp I have come to a couple of conclusions of my own. I do get the differences in design of the conductor part of the crimp. However, as I was experimenting with my early versions of wire assembly I gave the crimps the acid test by attaching the wire to a wall via a nail and holding the terminal with a pair of pliers then leaning back on it. I put at least 30# on them and they don't budge. Very scientific methods applied in my shop! I suppose I could have put a fish scale in the system and gotten the numbers somewhat for real, but, oh well that's life in the big city. In reading the Aero Electric Manual, which I don't necessarily take as the bible but I think is a pretty good start, Bob makes the point that the second crimp doesn't have a death grip on the insulation. Rather it keeps the wire resonating with the terminal which in other cases could become at some vibration levels a dissonance between the insulated part of the wire and the terminal if not secured allowing for work hardening caused by the enharmonic movement which focuses its' effect on the bare wire between the insulated and non insulated and non crimped wire (should be very small potion of wire). Your not going to find a reference in those words in the manual so don't look for them. As for the method I'm using of holding the insulted wire with shrink tube I personally feel it fills the bill and possibly exceeds the requirement of dampening extraneous movement of the wire.