Andy Hill

Well Known Member
It is intriguing that Van's have produced 3 wingtip styles (415, 715, 715-1), yet there is little debate about their relative merits.

I am clearly aware of the visual differences, but no more. Any advice, ideas or knowledge about the differences, including "why" Van's chose to redesign them at each stage would be appreciated.

To put it in context, would there be any performance (or other?) reason for someone with 415 wingtips on, say, an RV-8, to consider fitting 715-1 tips? I am assuming not ;) Or even v-v :eek:

Thanks in advance... trust I am not starting a primer wars / NW v TW debate!

Andy
 
715 tips increase span

Hi Andy,
There is quite a lot I could say about wingtips, in general and specific to RV's.

To answer your question, one HUGE difference between the 415 and 715 tips is that the 715 tips increase the wingspan by a foot. This is a pretty big deal.
It will significantly improve climb rate, and high-altitude cruise, as well as low-speed peformance. They probably have a slight disadvantage at top speed at low altitude. (induced drag is very small anyway, and the added wetted area hurts)

These tips are shaped with the highly swept side edge primarily so that the span increase does not come with a large increase in wetted area. There are some other interesting implications of this tip shape for moderate and high angle of attack performance and handling. But I don't want to write a thesis here. The 715-1 tip reduced wetted area further by removing the silly crescent trailing edge. (analysis in the literature that showed benefit of the crescent shape was largely the result of numerical artifacts, later debunked)

Given the very low aspect ratio, it is not really possible to do much about the tip shapes that is going to have much difference, other than the trade-off of wing span and wetted area.

To a large extent, you can think of wing tips on general aviation airplanes as a form of genetic drift. Take a walk at a busy airport and look at all the miriad different shape tips. If a shape were really substantially better, there would be some natural selection that would move all the designs toward that. The presence of so many successful airplanes with such a wide range of tip shapes suggests that it doesn't matter very much, and the design 'drifts' without any evolutionary pressure in any particular direction. Even on high performance sailplanes, there has really only recently been a noticeable convergence of tip shape. (Most nowadays have winglets, so I'm talking here more about the tip of the winglet.)

One feature that has been shown to be important is that the point of maximum wing span should coincide with the intersection of the trailing edge and tip side edge. All of Van's tips meet that criterion.
 
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It is intriguing that Van's have produced 3 wingtip styles (415, 715, 715-1), yet there is little debate about their relative merits.

I just changed from the original 415 tips to the 715 "bat-wing" style on my RV-6.
The only flight characteristics I noticed changing is that the high sink rate seems to start at a higher airspeed.
With the original tips the high sink rate started about 75-80 mph. With the new tips, that high sink rate starts at around 80-85 mph.
In my opinion, the original 415 tips are the most efficient of all tips offered.
Even though the 715 tips increase wing span slightly, the original "hoerner" style tips increase "effective" wingspan.

Stall and top speeds did not change at all.

I was told by an "un-named" person of authority at Vans that they changed because people thought the "Rocket" style tips are faster. Remember in the "good old days" when chrome valve covers and air cleaners were worth 10 mph on your hot rod?
 
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Thanks Mel.

I just changed from the original 415 tips to the 715 "bat-wing" style on my RV-6.
The only flight characteristics I noticed changing is that the high sink rate seems to start at a higher airspeed.
With the original tips the high sink rate started about 75-80 mph. With the new tips, that high sink rate starts at around 80-85 mph.
In my opinion, the original 415 tips are the most efficient of all tips offered.
Even though the 715 tips increase wing span slightly, the original "hoerner" style tips increase "effective" wingspan.

Stall and top speeds did not change at all.

I was told by an "un-named" person of authority at Vans that they changed because people thought the "Rocket" style tips are faster. Remember in the "good old days" when chrome valve covers and air cleaners were worth 10 mph on your hot rod?

Your actual findings confirm my suspicions, I have always preferred the Hoerner tips appearance and that's what my 6 kit came with.
They are prepped and primed, just waiting for the day I get to put them on.
 
Mel, what about rate of climb?

Mel's observations are expected. Although the 715 has more span, the highly swept side edge separates the tip vortex forward along the side edge at moderate to high angle of attack, which both reduces the effective span and creates a lot of pressure drag. So I would expect the sink rate to be increased below 75 kt. But, I would still expect the maximum rate of climb to be higher with the 715 tips - at moderate angles of attack, the flow should stay attached and get greater effective span. The 415 tip shape is quite good for what we have to work with on such a low aspect-ratio wing. If I were going to dog-fight, I would expect that the 415 tip would bleed less energy at corner speed, even though it has less actual wingspan.

I just changed from the original 415 tips to the 715 "bat-wing" style on my RV-6.
The only flight characteristics I noticed changing is that the high sink rate seems to start at a higher airspeed.
With the original tips the high sink rate started about 75-80 mph. With the new tips, that high sink rate starts at around 80-85 mph.
In my opinion, the original 415 tips are the most efficient of all tips offered.
Even though the 715 tips increase wing span slightly, the original "hoerner" style tips increase "effective" wingspan.
 
I'm glad this topic came up. I'm still quite a ways away from the fiberglass work (wings are built though). The tips that came with my 20 year-old kit are a bit warped. If I can't get them back in shape, I was going to buy a new set. I like the look of the older tips, but assumed the new tips were faster (why change them if they are not...). If there is no advantage, i'll stick with old tips.
 
Several years ago my son built a wind tunnel per plans from a fellow in the NASA building at Airventure. He used the two different wingtips as test subjects. What he found was the old style had less drag and more lift. Now this was a model of just the tip not the complete wing.
 
drawings

Does anyone have photos or drawings of the 3 different wing tip designs?:confused:

Sure, go to the Van's accessory catalog on-line, and look up the RV 7/8 wingtip lighting kit. That page shows the shape of the 715 and 715-1 tips. Then, go back to Van's home page and select the RV-6 model information. (or RV-4) Scroll down to the 3-view drawings. They show the 415 tip.

Note the 415 tip has a 90 degree swept side edge in plan view. In front view it has a flat top, and the bottom surface curves up to meet the top surface (one of the two classic Hoerner tip designs).

The 715 and 715-1 tips are 6" wider each, adding a foot to the physical wingspan.
 
I always understood that the most efficient wing-tips would be no tips at all ie a wing of infinite length. Apart from the general impracticality, I guess the roll rate would suffer a bit :D

This is an interesting paper from NASA about winglets which I - as a total amateur - found helpful in understanding the general problems of tip design and the effect that winglets have: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11028.html

I would think that the compromises needed for the various tasks we expect of our aircraft make the feasible differences in tip design very marginal - I was interested to see Mel's comments on the increase in speed where "sudden sink" starts with the 715 tips. Makes me wonder if the 415 tip has a greater effect on controlling the tip vortices.:confused: Would my landings be better if I changed to the older tips?;)

So Andy, will you do some experimentation with a variety of vortex diffusers, wing fences, winglets and leading edge extensions on the -3? Will a high alpha slow speed pass become part of your display routine? :D:D:D

Chris
 
Thanks all (apart from Chris M ;) ) for their helpful and interesting replies...

Question was not really for my benefit, but has been answered as "no real benefit"... and has convinced us not to consider anything else for the -3 (which would have been a pain anyway given the different section).

Best regards
Andy
 
The tips that came with my 20 year-old kit are a bit warped. If I can't get them back in shape, I was going to buy a new set. I like the look of the older tips, but assumed the new tips were faster (why change them if they are not...). If there is no advantage, i'll stick with old tips.

Ahhh, no advantage....the new tips will also be a bit warped .
 
Wingtip Designs

Here's a couple of questions for Steve Smith:
My understanding of the two Van's tip designs is that the original tips (415) were a Hoerner style, that is with the upper wing surface extended and the lower surface scalloped out at about 30-40 degrees to meet it with a rectangular planform. The intersection of these two surfaces is fairly sharp which helps keep the high pressure under the wing from mixing with the low pressure on top. This in effect results in a greater effective wing span.
The later Van's tip designs (715 and 715-1) are based on the so called "sheared" tip style in which the planform tapers from the leading edge to the trailing edge, but the transverse cross section is fully rounded. Although the latter feature is not intuitive like the Hoerner style, presumably the combination of taper and rounded cross section have a similar effect on keeping the high and low pressure regimes from mixing and forming large tip vorticies. This also in effect results in a greater effective wing span.
I did an internet search (AIAA, SAE) on "sheared" wingtips and found a couple of references but nothing that explained the origins of the shape and its benefits.
1. Is my understanding of the aerodynamics of the Hoerner and "sheared" styles correct?
2. Do you know the origins of the "sheared" style (ie. the agency responsible and a reference to the published work for the most effective geometry)?
 
lighting...

Different wingtips also have different lighting options, if you choose to install lights...

The Hoerner style I believe are the only ones that have a provision for a rear-facing white position light with an extrusion (ie: drag inducing light blister). Unless you count the RV-12.

Wondering if Mel had protruding nav/position lights?

Interesting thread.
 
Wondering if Mel had protruding nav/position lights?
Interesting thread.

My original 415 tips had protruding lights, but not aft facing. I already had the tail light on the rudder.

If anything, this should have produced an increase in performance with the new tips. I found none!
 
Hard to answer without writing a thesis, but.....

Here's a couple of questions for Steve Smith:
My understanding of the two Van's tip designs is that the original tips (415) were a Hoerner style(snip)
The later Van's tip designs (715 and 715-1) are based on the so called "sheared" tip style (snip)
1. Is my understanding of the aerodynamics of the Hoerner and "sheared" styles correct?
2. Do you know the origins of the "sheared" style (ie. the agency responsible and a reference to the published work for the most effective geometry)?

It is hard to explain or visualize tip flow without writing a thesis on it, or having a chalkboard to draw on, but I'll give it a try.

Terrye's ideas are not exactly right, but pretty close. Some basic points:
1) the trailing vorticity shed from a wing is distributed all along the trailing edge, not just a single vortex at the wingtip. The shed vorticity is strongest at the tip, and that entrains the rest of the shed vorticity into a single vortex some distance downstream of the wing. The ideal shed vorticity distribution corresponds to an elliptical span loading for a planar wing. For non-planar wings, the ideal distribution is no longer elliptical, but rather carries more load outboard.
2) because of flow separation along the tip side edge, the vorticity that should be shed from the trailing edge at the tip is to varying degrees shed early, off of the tip side edge. From there, the vortex usually follows a curved path upward and inward over the top of the wing. This flow does non not generally have a very big effect on performance, but it is in this flow structure that wing tip shape plays a role.
3) generally, if the tip side edge separates farther forward, the vortex washes farther inboard by the time it gets back to the trailing edge - this can appear to represent a loss of effective wing span, but there are off-setting factors, and other beneficial effects at high angle of attack.

Now, for discussion, lets separate two features of the wing tip shape, the planform and the lateral cross section shape. Both the older 415 and newer 715 and 715-1 tips have planforms where the maximum span point is at the trailing edge. Thats good. Probably the most important feature of a good wing tip. The 415 tip has a side edge that is aligned with the freestream, lets call it 90 degree sweep. The 715 tips have a sheared side edge, with less than 90 degrees sweep - I haven't measured, but its something like 80 degrees. The number isn't especially important. The main implication of this sheared edge is that it promotes formation of a vortex sheet separation along the side edge at moderate angle of attack.

The lateral cross section shape can be characterized by being a full rounded shape, like the 715 tip, or a relatively sharp side edge, like the Hoerner tip. It doesn't matter very much whether the edge is aligned with the upper surface, like the Hoerner tip, or aligned with the lower surface, or anywhere in between. The key is that the edge is relatively sharp, i.e. a small radius of curvature around the edge. This strongly promotes side edge vortex sheet separation.

So there is a combination of effects caused by the planform shape and the edge radius. I'll discuss the effects in the next posting, since this is getting long.
 
Perhaps you'd be able to tell us how the induced drag is distributed along the span? That is, what's the relative load distribution look like?

I've wondered about that....

Thanks!
 
Tip discussion, part II

So, we could consider 4 tip shapes, each with a different combination of planform and edge radius.

The sheared tip with a sharp side edge is the most extreme - the sharp swept edge will develop the side-edge vortex separation at the lowest angle of attack, and it will develop farther forward on the side edge, so it will form a larger, stronger vortex structure that will extend higher and farther inboard at the trailing edge.
The primary goal of a tip like this would be on a STOL airplane, to develop high lift with excellent aileron control to very high angles of attack. The outer region of the wing experiences very stron downwash from the side-edge vortex that delays stall, augmenting the flow over the upper surface of the aileron. The disadvantage of this tip is the high pressure drag caused by the large vortex separation region on the side edge. This will produce very mushy stall with very high sink rate at low speed.
History? For early examples of this tip shape, look at a Fokker Eindecker E-3 or a Moraine Saulner monoplane from WW I. Or even, look at Bleriot's 1908 monoplane. Did they understand why this tip shape worked? I don't know. More recent examples: Look at the Dornier 328 turboprop.

The sheared tip with a more full, rounded side edge, like the 715 tip, will delay the formation of the side edge separation, because of the nice generous radius edge. But as you go back toward the trailing edge, obviously the edge radius gets smaller and smaller, and at some point, it will separate. So this tip would have better climb performance than the sharp edged sheared tip, because at moderate angle of attack the flow should stay attached until farther aft, making a smaller side-edge vortex formation and less pressure drag. As long as the flow will stay attached, this tip will achieve a fairly high effective wingspan, supporting the wing lift distribution out most of the way to the tip, but looses some effective span as soon as the side edge flow separates, because of the sheared edge. At high angle of attack it should preserve the good aileron control and mushy stall/high sink rate at low speed.

The 90 degree tip with sharp edge is the Hoerner tip. The 90 degree side edge will support the wing bound vorticity out to the full effective wing span, even when the side edge flow does separate and form a side-edge vortex, because the edge is at the full span point. The vortex will not tend to wash as far inboard, and may not enhance aileron effectiveness at high angle of attack. For the same physical wingspan, this tip has more wetted area than the sheared tip.

The 90 degree tip with a full round side edge will delay/prevent side edge separation to the greatest degree possible, and maintain the highest effective wingspan. If I had a tapered wing with a nearly elliptical lift distibution, and I had to choose from the 4 tip shapes discussed here, this is what I would pick. Still better, I would alter the tip planform beyond what has been discussed here. IMHO,The best tip for an elliptically loaded wing is a 1/4 circle or 1/4 ellipse planform shape with the max span point coinciding with the trailing edge, and maintain full side edge radius, not sharp.

Two more points, one subtle.
First, The RV-s have lots of wing area - and at cruise conditions we have lots of skin friction drag. If you decide that you want to extend the wing span, without adding lots more wetted area, you need to do something like the sheared tip. To avoid the large pressure drag when the side edge separates on the sheared tip, you would make the edge radius as full and round as you can. So that is the 715 tip. I think the hope was to gain some effective wingspan at low to moderate angle of attack without adding a lot of wetted area, and gain some low speed controlability and mushy stall at perhaps slightly slower speed compared to the 415 tip. As observed here by Mel and others, these gains may be very small and hard to measure. It is very hard to accurately measure max climb rate - my hunch is that the 715 is, on balance, a bit better, but difficult to measure the difference.

Second point, and this one is subtle, advanced stuff. Generally from classical wing theory the rectangular planform would be considered less efficient than a tapered planform that better approximated an elliptical load distribution, and that is basically true. The lift distribution has too much lift on the outer part of the wing, then the lift drops off steeper toward the tips, causing too much downwash -- more induced drag. BUT.......
There is an interesting secondary effect of the side-edge vortex formation on a rectangular wing that is not addressed by classical wing theory. When you look at the vortex wake shape formed by a rectangular wing at moderate angle of attack, including the side-edge vortex formation, you find that this wake has the same non-planar characteristics as the wake from a wing with a winglet on it. The non-planar lift distribution produces lower induced drag for the same wingspan. And coincidentally, takes advantage of the otherwise less desireable lift distribution of the rectangular wing. So, while it is still true that the rectangular wing is less efficient, it is not as bad as predicted by classical theory, because it is gaining a small benefit that is beyond classical wing theory. The wingtip shape plays a significant role in this side-edge separation, and the Hoerner tip probably does the best all-around job of exploiting this effect.

This non-planar lifting effect is one of the reasons why our RV's are such nice planes. Along with Piper's and other designs with rectangular wings, they aren't as bad as one would think. If you want to learn more about this subtle non-linear effect, read my thesis, NASA TP-3598. (and write me for the errata sheet, because section 5.1 is wrong) Also, keep an eye out in the AIAA Journal of Aircraft for a good paper due out soon by Prof Dave Zingg at University of Toronto, he and a student have been studying this non-linear side-edge effect with modern CFD codes, really nice work.