H

hjd3021

Member
Starting work on the main wing spars. I noted that the laminated material at the attachment end has very rough edges on the different layers that make it up from how the pieces appear to have been sheared. It looks like it will take a good amount of filing and smoothing work to make them look good which I would like to do. Wanted to check and make sure that there is no issue in doing this and confirm that others have done the same.
 
Hi John,

I called Van's support line during my build and asked the same question. The answer was that the spar was ready as is and not to modify it..
 
John ? This bothered me too because I?ve been spending much more time than necessary diligently smoothing edges of all the parts ? but for the time being, since the laminated spar components are anodized, I?m hesitant to file that protective layer away and also damage even more of protective finish adjacent to the rough spots while doing so. Leaving the edges rough really bothers me, but it is a judgment call (perhaps bad on my part).

Figured if the rough edges become an issue during wing fitting, I can always smooth things up at that time and use an epoxy primer and paint only on the edges of the spar where the material was removed.

Hopefully others will weigh in and tell us what they have done in this area.
 
You can call, but..........

Vans is going to tell you (as mentioned above) to keep on building. They are ready to go, as-is.
 
The spar edges that were visible in the cabin of the SLSA-12 that I was working with on Monday had untouched machine sheared edges. I can't imagine they would let that be if they were at all concerned about it.
 
I too didn't care for the unfinished edges but left them as is. Would this be a good time and place for a DAR to step in with a thought on whether or not an E-LSA certification would be affected by filing the spars?
 
Thanks for the resposes so far. I will post some pictures this weekend. One thing that I did not mention is that the spar ends were taped with what looked like scotch tape over the end of the spar top and bottom and over the stenciled in serial number of the spar - I know that the stenciled question was addressed in the forum previously. What I found when I removed the tape which also covered the machined out end was that the spar was full of metal chips from machining at the end. I was very surprised. It was also found that the end of the spar in this area was very sharp edges and corners to the point that they would not pass the running the hand over them test. I did take a fine file and dressed the corners to remove the sharpness to the minimum extent possible. I was concerned about the treatment on the metal but figured I needed to at least address the sharp edges and corners.
 
I am attaching a couple of pictures of the spar edges that show all of the shear marks - each of the layers of aluminum is sheared different and are not all the same size either by slight amounts. I expect that it does not matter from a structural integrity point of view but I was concerned with how it looked and the overall roughness. After viewing some of the great 12's that the guys brought to our get together Saturday at Bremerton, WA I decided that I was going to at least do some filing to get rid of the roughness and make things look better. First two pictures are of the as received condition. Last picture is one of the spar edges after I filed the roughness to a reasonably smooth level and then primed.





 
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Watch the rivets too.

I wasn't so concerned with those edges, in that, with the lamination, I doubted that stress fractures would get started. I was more concerned with the rivets. I believe the instructions say to dress those a bit with a file, in that they will snag the side skins when inserting or extracting the wings. That's what I experienced on the first wing fitting, mangling up the skins quite a bit. Per advice from Van's, I enlarged the openings by about a quarter inch (doesn't matter much, 'cause nobody sees it. Despite dressing the rivets, snagging still occurred, so I installed some of the linear grommet material (used on the flaperon torque tube exits) to three sides that needed it of the rectangular holes for the wings--the wings now slide in like greased snot on Teflon.
 
Man O Man!

Those shear marks are really ugly - wonder how they escaped QC? I don't think that I could live with those without doing some serious and careful filing - like, even more than you did. Think that I'd have to make up a jig in order to make the filing precise. And maybe use a power sander in the jig. I'd really like to see a smooth and regular surface without reducing the dimensions.

Hope that mine aren't like that - I have a much earlier kit. I'll look at mine when I get there - hopefully this year! Maybe Van's cutting devices need to be sharpened or replaced?
 
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Shear marks

Shear marks they look like they were cut with a chainsaw.
It's hard to take pride in your workmanship ( if ) vans thinks that's OK
The gaps in the lay-ups concern me.
I would rather assemble the spar myself if that is the best they can do.


E. D. Eliot said:
Those shear marks are really ugly - wonder how they escaped GC? I don't think that I could live with those without doing some serious and careful filing - like, even more than you did. Think that I'd have to make up a jig in order to make the filing precise. And maybe use a power sander in the jig. I'd really like to see a smooth and regular surface without reducing the dimensions.

Hope that mine aren't like that - I have a much earlier kit. I'll look at mine when I get there - hopefully this year! Maybe Van's cutting devices need to be sharpened or replaced?
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That's a pretty rough finish to say the least. Maybe they have changed their manufacturing process, but this is my spar as delivered in 2010. Big difference. Did you send Van's those photos?

9596558229_b1761e9d87_c.jpg
 
My spars came looking much the same as the photos posted by John H, nasty undressed edges from the shearing process ? the ?chain saw look? as Joe so eloquently put it. In fact, think mine are a little worse looking.

Overall, I?ve been impressed with the quality of the fit and the excellence in the packaging and condition of the parts in the RV-12 kit. However, that said, the spar is one area where Van?s has truly dropped the ball in my opinion. It does not seem to me it would be that difficult to at least knock down the big stuff at the factory before anodization. It doesn?t have to be perfectly smooth ? but gee, at least dress it up to the point it won?t rip flesh.
 
Just a comment on the lamination issue - I don't think that there is any issue there. My photo looks like there is a gap but that is because I took the shot at and angle and the fact that each of the layers is not exactly the same in width causing one to stick up more than the other. You are seeing the dark line becasue of the height of the layers versus the gap between layers. I considered filing/grinding until they were all even but in some cases that would result in filing down the outer top layers since some of the inner layers were lower. I decided to make them look better but not modify them substantially from what I received that was supposedly ready to use.
 
I left the main spars as they came. I didn't want to disturb the coating. Also, you can see the level of deburr they do on the rib clips - pretty much hit them with a quick brush across the wheel and go. I did smooth those out a bit. I took a close look at the SLSA at AirVenture and the edges are what I would expect.

I can't imagine going after those mains though - there's too much material to remove to get them smooth.
 
Overall, I?ve been impressed with the quality

After reading my post #12 from this morning
I was a little too hard on the statement about vans, the parts in the kits all fit with incredible percussion.
The stop drilled ribs in the stabilator and the photo of the spar are my only concerns.

Overall, I?ve also been impressed with the quality xxx

John-G said:
Overall, I?ve been impressed with the quality of the fit and the excellence in the packaging and condition of the parts in the RV-12 kit. However, that said, the spar is one area where Van?s has truly dropped the ball in my opinion. It does not seem to me it would be that difficult to at least knock down the big stuff at the factory before anodization. It doesn?t have to be perfectly smooth ? but gee, at least dress it up to the point it won?t rip flesh.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not impressed, Joe - John's pictures look ghastly! John thinks so too, and since I now know where John works, he's well qualified to hold that opinion.

If nothing else, there's that ugly enemy of quality - variation - poking its head up again. We have U-channels with shouldered holes, and U-channels without shouldered holes. We have wing ribs with plastic covering and wing ribs without plastic covering. Now we have laminated wing spars that are smooth and spars that are rough (very rough!). I would be very hard pressed to put that in my airplane, call it a "finished surface", and hold my head high with pride. And what about the machining chips in the cavity???

Fortunately, mine were smooth (Kit #302).

i-fBWcTz8-L.jpg
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i-87B3h5P-L.jpg
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I hate to say what I did to mine (but I didn't have to file them down.) I soaked them in corrosion inhibiter - laminations and rivets, and cavity. After it had soaked into the faying surfaces and dried, I cleaned it off the surface with solvent, then primed and painted.

My years at Boeing - in the factory and in the field - taught me that faying surfaces are inviting the cancer for airplanes - corrosion. Moisture gets in there and does its silent deadly job. Boeing years ago began applying corrosion inhibiter to all faying surfaces and fillet seals to the edges.

They've gone through several different compounds, as have I. First, it was LPS-3. Then Boeshield T-9. I have found the best to be CRC Heavy Duty Corrosion Inhibiter. It has a low surface tension allowing it to wick into faying surface joints, and then dries to a hard brownish coating. The other two stay semi-moist, are very messy to work around (forever) and attract dirt, etc. I have used it on my small boat (and its trailer) for 20+ years - the boat is covered in salt spray 24/7 and that stuff really works great!

BTW - you can see some it - before cleanup, in my U-channel. Steel parts touching aluminum parts, or faying surfaces - out comes my CRC.

Wish I could give you some better advice on the filing, John. I don't think "as-is" is anywhere near good enough.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Ken said it is the way they build them

I just got off the phone with ken of vans


Ken said it is the way they build them
and that there is nothing wrong with the Spars.


I don't Like the way the spar are cut with a nibbler




NASA515 said:
I'm not impressed, Joe - John's pictures look ghastly! John thinks so too, and since I now know where John works, he's well qualified to hold that opinion.

If nothing else, there's that ugly enemy of quality - variation - poking its head up again. We have U-channels with shouldered holes, and U-channels without shouldered holes. We have wing ribs with plastic covering and wing ribs without plastic covering. Now we have laminated wing spars that are smooth and spars that are rough (very rough!). I would be very hard pressed to put that in my airplane, call it a "finished surface", and hold my head high with pride. And what about the machining chips in the cavity???

Fortunately, mine were smooth (Kit #302).

i-fBWcTz8-L.jpg
[/url][/IMG]

i-87B3h5P-L.jpg
[/url][/IMG]

I hate to say what I did to mine (but I didn't have to file them down.) I soaked them in corrosion inhibiter - laminations and rivets, and cavity. After it had soaked into the faying surfaces and dried, I cleaned it off the surface with solvent, then primed and painted.

My years at Boeing - in the factory and in the field - taught me that faying surfaces are inviting the cancer for airplanes - corrosion. Moisture gets in there and does its silent deadly job. Boeing years ago began applying corrosion inhibiter to all faying surfaces and fillet seals to the edges.

They've gone through several different compounds, as have I. First, it was LPS-3. Then Boeshield T-9. I have found the best to be CRC Heavy Duty Corrosion Inhibiter. It has a low surface tension allowing it to wick into faying surface joints, and then dries to a hard brownish coating. The other two stay semi-moist, are very messy to work around (forever) and attract dirt, etc. I have used it on my small boat (and its trailer) for 20+ years - the boat is covered in salt spray 24/7 and that stuff really works great!

BTW - you can see some it - before cleanup, in my U-channel. Steel parts touching aluminum parts, or faying surfaces - out comes my CRC.

Wish I could give you some better advice on the filing, John. I don't think "as-is" is anywhere near good enough.

Bob Bogash
N737G
Click to expand...
 
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They'd have to tell me why some are one way and some are another way. That's always a red flag for me.

But, in any event, if they say that's good, then if I had a couple that looked like that, I'd be down buying a can of Bondo to schmear all over the top to hide the roughcut, or layup a layer or two of fiberglas for the same reason.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Mine are very rough, about like the photos earlier. I had never thought much about it, assumed that they ALL were like that. My inclination is to leave them that way, crappy looking and all.
 
FWIW, Don, I use that U-channel area as a storage bin for a lot of small junk, including chart books, sunglasses, etc - in fact I think some guys have designed mods that make it into a much better storage area. You'll be reaching across those spar caps a lot. Maybe you want a little cap for that, if not for the looks.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
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