Geico266

Well Known Member
Why is it some pilots just don't want to lean their engines?

This came up in a "hanger flying" conversation a few weeks ago, and again last night. A buddy has a nice Velocity with a 300 HP Continential. It loves fuel, and he was complainging about operating costs. When I asked him about running LOP he turned white. When I told him how to set it up he got interested and went flying to try it out. His CHT's dropped from 400F to 300F, EGT's dropped from 1450 to 1375. His oil temps dropped from 210F to 185F, his fuel flow dropped from 13 GPH to 10GPH. (He LOVED that part ;)) and he was still flying at 170knts.

Others I have bought planes from have said they NEVER leaned the engine out. Just "no need to", or "never tried it".
Is this an old habit mislearned from student days? I just don't get it.

What all have you been taught about leaning -vs- how you fly today? Is it instrumentation that allows us to "see" what is going on more? Fear of detonation? Preignition?

We can all do our part to fly GREEN! :D <----- Did you notice little green face?
 
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Others I have bought planes from have said they NEVER leaned the engine out. Just "no need to", or "never tried it".
Is this an old habit mislearned from student days? I just don't get it.
I sure can't speak for others, but on one of my first lessons my CFII told me to 'lean her a little bit, it's hot out there'. Sure, we didn't do it for fuel efficiency, but I'm no longer red knob shy :)
 
they don't know how

I agree. Read Mike Busch's articles on avweb. Big LOP proponent.

I had CFI's in my student days and even advanced CFI's later - after I knew better - that said run FULL RICH below 5000 feet or you'd burn up the engine.

I've also seen that same CFI who cut a lesson short and brought the airplane back because it was running rough at 5,000 feet. Full rich - go figure!
 
You're exactly right - it's because the don't know how.

In the absence of true knowledge, rumor and hearsay become fact, and there is no shortage of folks willing and eager to tell you that you are going to die instantly if you touch the red knob. We've all the heard the horror stories (and there is a grain of truth in them, to be fair) about trashing engines with poor leaning technique. The instrumentation and knowledge of how to do it takes the boogeyman out of the closet, and makes it very simple to do in a safe manner. A little education and couple of gadgets can go a long way.
 
Forgive my newbness for showing, but LOP = Lean XXX XXX?

Lean of Peak. By leaning the mixture in cruise, the cylinder head temps are brought to peak temperature and then leaning continues until the CHTs come down to a point usually 25-50 degrees below peak, but on the lean side of the curve.

As opposed to ROP - rich of peak - which is probably what your CFI taught you.
 
Forgive my newbness for showing, but LOP = Lean XXX XXX?

Don't be afraid of LOP (Lean Of Peak) but certainly study it before you try it. It is more difficult with a carburated engine as the fuel is not even't disbursed into the cylinders, loke fuel injection. There is a science to it, and a lot of history behind it. It was very instrumental in winning WWII. Interesting stuff, to me anyway.
 
It's all instrumentation and training

Why is it some pilots just don't want to lean their engines?

What all have you been taught about leaning -vs- how you fly today? Is it instrumentation that allows us to "see" what is going on more? Fear of detonation? Preignition?

For me know I'd say the biggest challenge to really leaning it out (has to be ROP though, I'm flying a carb) is the lack of engine instrumentation. The most advanced engine instrumentation I've ever flown with is an EGT gauge, and the planes I'm flying now don't even have that. So for me, knowing what I know from reading this forum, I lean it out till it gets rough and then give it about 1/4 to 1/2 a turn back in. It keeps the oil temp in the green, but the fuel flow seems high with this technique. I'm burning about 9gph in a 150hp C172.

I was taught to leave it full rich below 3000agl, and then when leaning it out quicly turn the knob back in till the RPM's peak after you hit the engine roughness. The CFI would freak out if you didn't start spinning it back in quickly enough, saying that we were "trashing" the engine. To get pack to peak RPM's it usually takes about 1 to 1 and 1/2 spins of the red knob.
 
Lean of Peak. By leaning the mixture in cruise, the cylinder head temps are brought to peak temperature and then leaning continues until the CHTs come down to a point usually 25-50 degrees below peak, but on the lean side of the curve.

As opposed to ROP - rich of peak - which is probably what your CFI taught you.

Just to be clear, I'm sure Jeff meant EGTs. Leaning to, and beyond, "peak" is done by reference to exhaust gas temperatures.
 
You're exactly right - it's because the don't know how.

In the absence of true knowledge, rumor and hearsay become fact, and there is no shortage of folks willing and eager to tell you that you are going to die instantly if you touch the red knob. We've all the heard the horror stories (and there is a grain of truth in them, to be fair) about trashing engines with poor leaning technique. The instrumentation and knowledge of how to do it takes the boogeyman out of the closet, and makes it very simple to do in a safe manner. A little education and couple of gadgets can go a long way.

It's not rally they don't know the theory. The problem (in my opinion) with setting engine to run LOP is lack of instrumentation. How many C172, C150 or Pipers do you know that have four probe CHT and EGT monitors? And without them running LOP is really tricky. If you have slightest imbalance in mixture ratio getting to every cylinder (I'd should rather say when not if unless you have balanced FI) you risk that while two or three of the cylinders are already LOP one of them is still in peak. So for most of them the only applicable method of leaning is good old 'lean it until it starts to go rough and push it back just a little bit'. Everything is pure magic.
 
Just to be clear, I'm sure Jeff meant EGTs. Leaning to, and beyond, "peak" is done by reference to exhaust gas temperatures.

Good catch! My bad.

EGT's! Before you try it study it, but don't be afraid of it.

Without proper instrumentation LOP is guess work.
 
I lean it out till it gets rough and then give it about 1/4 to 1/2 a turn back in.

I was taught a 1/4" - 3/8" in, not a 1/4 turn of the knob. Actually pushing the button (on a 172) and moving it in 1/4". I suppose every plane is different.

On take off when it's hot I lean it out a 1/2" and watch the EGT's.
 
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See John Deakins articles on the subject of leaning (there are four of them altogether, I think) in AvWeb. Very detailed, specific as to the pre-requirements, and informative.

Regards,


Lee...
 
My instructors have encouraged me to lean as necessary, and I have no problem doing it.

Considering most people who fly rent planes wet, maybe they just don't care about the economic benefits of leaning?
 
Considering most people who fly rent planes wet, maybe they just don't care about the economic benefits of leaning?
They certainly don't. Which is very shortsighted because the rent price is strictly related to gph number.

The only problem is to convince all those who fly one particular plane to lean it so this plane can be cheaper to operate. Otherwise you are just doing good the owner, not yourself.
 
OWT's

There is so much myth and legend in flying its unreal...It seems to me you have to reasonably mechanically inclined to even want to understand the principles of LOP operation. let alone actually do it to your engine worth 25 grand.

So homebuilders i think are more likely to lean..But if you can't tie your own shoelaces, then your probably not going to bash rivets or learn about running LOP..Especially when your A&P gives you the dear pilot stories of how one guy he knew went bankrupt through engine rebuilds when he dared to touch the red knob.

Add to that the required instrumentation is now affordable..At least if your a homebuilder. The trouble is we now need a couple of decades for the old A&P "experts" to retire.

Have you ever seen LOP talked about in a flight manual?..I havent.
My CFI on my PPL never had me touch the red knob.

Hardly surprising no one does.

Personally I play my mixture knob like a trombone...:)

Frank
 
<SNIP>

Have you ever seen LOP talked about in a flight manual?..I havent.
My CFI on my PPL never had me touch the red knob.

Hardly surprising no one does.

Personally I play my mixture knob like a trombone...:)

Frank

Do you mean not touch it AT ALL?:eek:

I can see why a CFI might not encourage a pre-PPL to try LOP, especially in a rental. But "proper" leaning (i.e. ROP per the POH) is crucial to achieve the book numbers for range and for max power at high DA.
 
Like most, I was always a bit afraid of leaning excessively. The bit of information that changed my approach entirely was understanding the recommendation from Lycoming that leaning cannot damage the engine provided you are under 75% power ( I think Superior is more conservative and recommend 65%??). I have a carb 0-320 with all the required instrumentation but the only instrument I use now when leaning in the cruise is the % horsepower. I use the Superior recommendation, and as long as I am under 65% HP, I just lean it as much as possible to the edge of roughness, confident in the knowledge that this will not damage the engine. I will admit that the 4 probe EGT/CHT was initially useful in verifying that I could run LOP with WOT and carb heat, but the real aim with a carb engine is to find the throttle/mixture /rpm and possibly carb heat settings that maximize mpg and this could have been achieved with just a % HP readout, Fuel Flow gauge and a GPS for TAS???

Fin
9A
 
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Ya I know

OMG! You crossed into the dark side! May the force be with you! ;)

**** will freeze over, my engine will fall off the mount, paint will peel off the fuse..

Well I'm going flying now..if I'm not here Monday morning something REALLY bad happened..:)

Frank
 
My CFI on my PPL never had me touch the red knob.

Hardly surprising no one does.

Personally I play my mixture knob like a trombone...:)

Out here in the Rocky's, pulling that red knob is the first thing you're taught to do, the second the engine starts. It's lean before taxi, re-adjust mixture before takeoff, and seldom go rich on landing. But then we're at 4000' - 7000' airports to begin with. Even the check lists are written that way.

Not that this has anything to do with "LOP" though...

L.Adamson
 
I remember flying into the Denver area one hot afternoon. On final I pushed the mixture all the way in and the engine almost quit! I was always taught; "If what you just did causes the big fan to quit, undo it!" .. so I pulled the red knob until she started running smooth again and I landed the plane. That really got my attention.

Like L.Adamson said mountain fliers even lean on take off. So do I when it is hot, and I'm based at 1,500 MSL. Just keep an eye on the EGT's.
 
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Don't BASH the CFI, PVT PILOT = Liscense to Learn

You do make a good point. If some one learns as a student from a CFI bad habits or flies by myth and urban legend than it is hard to break. If the student turned new pvt pilot does not read and continuously update their knowledge, goes for a flight check every 24 months, they will not learn.

This is not to be defensive. I don't have guilt, but lets understand what a CFI does or needs to do. In my case as a CFI teaching in a variety of typical Cessna's and Piper's used in training, the AFM is the SOURCE of all engine operation technique and procedures.

Lets not blame everything on the CFI. In 1900 hours of "dual given", I probably graduated about 15 privates, in addition to teaching instrument, multi, CFI and ATP as well. I'm proud to say many students of mine went for their check ride with 44-50 hours in their log. All my students passed 1st time I am proud to say. To teach people you can't make them an expert in all aspects. However I did it by the book and tried to explain the WHY.

I HAVE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT PISTON ENGINES AND OPERATION IN THE YEARS SINCE I WAS AN ACTIVE CFI, A LOT FROM VAF. However I doubt I'd change my pvt pilot syllabus much even today, because nothing really has changed in the years.

Only in the last 10-15 years have "engine monitors", multi channel, all cylinders instrumentation (EGT/CHT) and FF become common. Most GA planes, especially rentals still do not have EGT and CHT. The approved engine monitors for certified planes have some excellent manuals on how to use them, including leaning. I flew a flew several turbo charge piston twins (a few pressurized) with out a FANCY engine monitor. They did have some extra temp gauges, but no full engine monitors.

If today I where training a student/pilot on a plane with a FI engine and an "All-Singing-All-Dancing" engine monitor, you bet we would go into the minutia of LOP, ROP, ICP, spread, FF.......blaa, blaa. This is so critical on larger and turbocharge engines. I loved running some of the turbo engines in the medium twins I flew fright and corporate in. They needed careful pilot skill to run properly. Also failure to lean or operate properly had serious fuel burn or even engine damage consequences. A O-320 Lyc can tolerate a lot of ham handed-ness.

In modern Airline training they focus on things the pilot can affect and NEEDS TO KNOW. In the old days they taught you the diameter of the fuel line. They don't do that any more.

I admit deep system knowledge gets short changed some what in typical private pilot training. My students did not have a PhD in engine management, but they knew how to flight plan and how leaning affected range, performance and engine health.

PVT PILOT IS A LICENSE TO LEARN. The reason people are afraid, is lack of knowledge, just not staying current and learning and upgrading their knowledge. I hope I never stop learning.
 
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my .02

When I first started flying it was from an airport at sea level. The mixture was only used to shut the engine off after the lesson. Rarely did we climb above 2500'.

I later moved to Colorado and the Mixture was used/adjusted for every aspect of the flight, from start to taxi to takeoff to cruise to landing then taxi and shutdown.

My C152's POH reads "full rich below 2000' msl". I now have a hard time not adjusting the mixture when below 2000'. I also treat that 2000' msl as 2000' DA instead.
 
It's been a while but I remember my CFI telling me to lean at cruise until I started to see an RPM drop or engine roughness then if I had an EGT note the temp and push the red knob back in until I dropped 50 deg. or the engine smoothed out. My RV-9 will have a carb but still want to investigate running LOP if possible.
 
Of course, some of us have been around long enough that we learned in J-3 cubs that didn't have a mixture knob....when we graduated to one of those "fancy" airplanes with all those extra knobs we were on our own to learn about them....:)
 
I always wonder if I fully understand the leaning issue. Before I go on I am not talking turbo engines, just the simple 4 pots we use in RV.

If you have the instrumentation is there anything wrong with this statement, above or below the 65-75% power threshold.

"Never lean so the CHT go over 400F degrees?"

Nothing magic about 400 but its a nice round number safely below the Lyco 425F. If I understand things correctly provided they are below 400 you cant have detonation so all is well irrespective of what power you are producing. The only temperature that really matters is the CHT? Yes, I agree before someone reiterates the basics the EGT is a good diagnostic as to where you are in the leaning regime.

Please put me right if I have missed something.
 
Well

It's been a while but I remember my CFI telling me to lean at cruise until I started to see an RPM drop or engine roughness then if I had an EGT note the temp and push the red knob back in until I dropped 50 deg. or the engine smoothed out. My RV-9 will have a carb but still want to investigate running LOP if possible.


What is happening there is you are leaning to roughness which is going to be around Peak EGT or maybe slightly LOP..Then you are richening to 50F ROP or so.

With a carbed engine without a multi channel engine monitor this about the best you can do..

So when you get the 9 flying you can try and run it LOP like any other engine..I.e set cruise up for 24 squared and back the mixture off till each cylinder peaks (thats EGT) and keep leaning until you get all of the cylinders on the lean side of peak EGT.

You will probably find the leanest cylinder will flame out before the richest cylinder makes it to peak EGT..then it will run rough, i.e it won't work

Some carbed engines appear to be able to run LOP though...If so great, you just saved 2000 bucks by not needing fuel injection..:)

Frank
 
Yes, LOP with carb is definitely possible.. it takes a bit of "finding the sweet spot" but once you find it, you should be able to reliably repeat it. I do think that having an E.I. (in my case single LSE III) helps a lot...

I was thinking about going F.I. but then I was lucky to be able to do LOP w/ carb, so now I ask why bother switching.. and the 2k will buy some 100LL..

Pete H. has done some studious testing and his findings are here on VAF... fun [and worth] reading!
 
Link to John Deakin's engine management articles

In some ways I feel fortunate I came to GA flying late in the game after a career of flying military jets and airliners. I knew virtually nothing about piston engine flying and did a lot of research. I tried to seek out information based on fact and not OWT (Old Wives Tales). These articles are my primary source of engine management.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182179-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182176-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182583-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/183094-1.html

Seb Trost
RV-7A
Boulder City, NV 61B (as of 1 Aug 08)
 
Out here in the Rocky's, pulling that red knob is the first thing you're taught to do, the second the engine starts. It's lean before taxi, re-adjust mixture before takeoff, and seldom go rich on landing. But then we're at 4000' - 7000' airports to begin with. Even the check lists are written that way.

Not that this has anything to do with "LOP" though...

L.Adamson

Not taught at UVSC flight school (now UVU) where I learned. By school policy, all manenvers were done full rich until the day when they had three planes land with less than two gallons of fuel, including one student on 1st solo (who had less than a half gallon). Because they never leaned, they burned fuel a lot faster than they planned. I was in one of those planes, and questioned my instructor about fuel before the flight; but he said not to worry, we'd be just fine. It was shortly after that that I switched instructors. And with my new instructor, we discussed and practiced proper leaning.
 
Not taught at UVSC flight school (now UVU) where I learned. By school policy, all manenvers were done full rich until the day when they had three planes land with less than two gallons of fuel, including one student on 1st solo (who had less than a half gallon). Because they never leaned, they burned fuel a lot faster than they planned. I was in one of those planes, and questioned my instructor about fuel before the flight; but he said not to worry, we'd be just fine. It was shortly after that that I switched instructors. And with my new instructor, we discussed and practiced proper leaning.

And at KSLC, SLC #2, Heber, and Skypark.........it was kind of standard. But it was in Pipers and Cessnas. I'm not familiar with a few Katana engines.

What's really important, is the loss of available power when not leaning for the takeoff at high density altitudes.

L.Adamson
 
Seb: Those are exactly the four articles I referred to earlier. Very good data for anyone interested in the details of how to use modern instrumentation not only to run LOP, but for a far more comprehensive understanding of what is going on in your engine, real-time.

They are excellent and very informative.


Lee...
 
Well I read all the articles and tried it out. What a difference in temps. I've had a high temps and this certainly helped a lot. I flew Saturday evening OAT 85F 23", 2350 leaned to 75 ROP #1 CHT 385, #2 399, #3 410, #4 402 Oil temp 220, fuel flow 9GPH. Flew Sunday morning same OAT altitude and power setting. Leaned LOP My #1 cyl runs cooler than the rest so to get it 20 LOP the rest were 55-60LOP with #3 being 60. #1 CHT 373, #2 368, #3 363, #4 367, Oil temp 205, fuel flow 7.4 GPH. A dramatic change. I ran LOP for 20 min so I knew everything was sabilized then richened to 75 ROP. All of the temps went up to the same as Saturday. Re leaned to LOP and all the temps went back down. I am going to get a leaner insert for the #1 injector and try to balance everything out so I can run 25-40 LOP. Don
 
What's really important, is the loss of available power when not leaning for the takeoff at high density altitudes.
L.Adamson

I'm working on my PPL here in Northern New Mexico. Always lean the engine prior to takeoff at our 6550' elevation and even higher density altitude. The other night my instructor and I did a long cross country to a 7200' elevation airport. I had leaned the engine at 10,500' early in the trip. Didn't touch the mixture before landing or before taking off again. Bad move. When we departed, I couldn't get enough power to really climb out. Instead, I was only able to get about 25 fpm, barely able to stay airborne at a couple hundred feet in the dark! Told the instructor and, in a few long seconds, he shoved the mixture forward an inch and "full" power was restored. He's a great instructor and really felt bad about not checking... But, I really learned a lesson that night! If you lean it at altitude, you'd better reset it when you come down.
 
As you might imagine I get inundated with calls, emails, faxes, messages it in a bottle, and sky writing asking for comment on the LOP (Lean of Peak) debate. As I see it there is a number of reasons that the vast majority of GA aviators view LOP with skepticism.

1. It did not exist prior to the advent of multi point EGT analyzers. Prior to multi point systems LOP was only theory. Some may have achieved it but they probably didn't know it.

2. It is quit obvious from the science that compared to ROP operation, the safe area of operation on the Lean side of peak is very small. Again, you may achieve LOP operation with success. Or you might blow your engine apart.

3. Only some engines are even capable of "true" LOP operation. Some engines, like EI's O-470, can get one or more cylinders operating LOP while others are ROP. Truly impossible to determine without multi point EGT analyzers. Is this OK? Sure, as long as you know your proximity to "peak" on all cylinders.

Review this manual for discussion in technical detail. http://www.buy-ei.com/Information/Pilots%20Manual.pdf


Remember to always error on the side of safety. For we are slaves to the "theory" of flight and the "law" of gravity.

Good luck!

Matt
 
It is quit obvious from the science that compared to ROP operation, the safe area of operation on the Lean side of peak is very small. Again, you may achieve LOP operation with success. Or you might blow your engine apart.

I dont want to stir up a hornets nest here, but this is quite contrary to what is preached in the Deakin articles referred to earlier. Perhaps you could review them and offer a critique or elaborate on the science you are referring to?

good naturedly yours,

erich
 
Well I read all the articles and tried it out. What a difference in temps. I've had a high temps and this certainly helped a lot. I flew Saturday evening OAT 85F 23", 2350 leaned to 75 ROP #1 CHT 385, #2 399, #3 410, #4 402 Oil temp 220, fuel flow 9GPH. Flew Sunday morning same OAT altitude and power setting. Leaned LOP My #1 cyl runs cooler than the rest so to get it 20 LOP the rest were 55-60LOP with #3 being 60. #1 CHT 373, #2 368, #3 363, #4 367, Oil temp 205, fuel flow 7.4 GPH. A dramatic change. I ran LOP for 20 min so I knew everything was sabilized then richened to 75 ROP. All of the temps went up to the same as Saturday. Re leaned to LOP and all the temps went back down. I am going to get a leaner insert for the #1 injector and try to balance everything out so I can run 25-40 LOP. Don

Don, You need to do a standard EGT test run. Airflow Performance has a nice test for you to run and to ensure you have a "balanced FI engine" before running LOP. Don Riveria will help you and can recommend which restrictors you'll need. Send him an e-mail.

http://www.airflowperformance.com/

Welcome to the dark side! Enjoy the savings. :D
 
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LOP did not exist prior to the advent of multi point EGT analyzers. Prior to multi point systems LOP was only theory. Some may have achieved it but they probably didn't know it.

Matt

Matt, with all due respect this simply is not true, LOP operations have been around a long time.

It is well know that Charles Lindberg used LOP to cross the Atlantic in 1927, and LOP operations helped win WWII not in theory, but in aerial combat. Charles Lindburg was an isolationist / defeatist and was against WWII initially. This kept him out of the war until he went to work for a private company in 1943 and transferred to the Pacific theater where he taught his radical "secret procedure" to the Army Air Corps to extend the range of our fighters. There were many successful missions running LOP which took the war to the enemy farther and deeper into enemy held territory than ever before, saving precious fuel resources for future missions. LOP has a long, rich (no pun intended ;)), successful history with piston engines and minimal instrumentation. LOP is much easier with EI, but most certainly can be SAFELY attained by just a few instruments and a properly tuned engine.

To say the operating range of LOP is smaller is accurate, but certainly you are not going to "blow your engine up" if you set the engine up properly. It is not hard, in fact it is very simple. If you can run a clip board & a pencil you can run a standard Injector Nozzle Tuning flow test and record the results. Change the restrictors to get the cylinders to peak at about the same fuel flow rate and you now have an engine set up to run LOP all day long. The engine will run cooler, and longer.
 
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LOP is much easier with EI, but most certainly can be attained by just a few instruments.

Just another data point:

Grumman AA1B O-320 150hp 1200SMOH with minimal instrumentation; EGT on #3 cylinder, oil temp, and a tach. I measure fuel consumption by how much it takes to fill it back up. A typical flight profile is takeoff at 4000msl, climb to 8000+ at 125-150 ROP, cruise WOT leaned to peak or beyond as long as the engine runs smoothly, and decent to land at 3000msl. The LOP cruise setting usually results in 2400 rpm and oil temp midway between 180-260. A recent leg was 232kts in 2.3hrs on the GPS using 14.5 gals or 6.3 gal/hr including the climb. Not an RV, but the -9A is coming along nicely.
 
Just another data point:

Grumman AA1B O-320 150hp 1200SMOH with minimal instrumentation; EGT on #3 cylinder, oil temp, and a tach. I measure fuel consumption by how much it takes to fill it back up. A typical flight profile is takeoff at 4000msl, climb to 8000+ at 125-150 ROP, cruise WOT leaned to peak or beyond as long as the engine runs smoothly, and decent to land at 3000msl. The LOP cruise setting usually results in 2400 rpm and oil temp midway between 180-260. A recent leg was 232kts in 2.3hrs on the GPS using 14.5 gals or 6.3 gal/hr including the climb. Not an RV, but the -9A is coming along nicely.

Instead of running at peak EGT's try running -50 degrees LOP and watch the oil temps. If the engine does not run smoothly then it should not be run LOP. JMHO.

Keep pounding those rivits!
 
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Don, You need to do a standard EGT test run. Airflow Performance has a nice test for you to run and to ensure you have a "balanced FI engine" before running LOP. Don Riveria will help you and can recommend which restrictors you'll need. Send him an e-mail.

http://www.airflowperformance.com/

Welcome to the dark side! Enjoy the savings. :D

Larry, That is my first call tomorrow morning. As you can see #2,3,4 run very close with #1 being much richer. i have the Dynon D120 so I can download whatever info they want. I'll let you all know what info they want and the end results. Don
 
Guess it's a good thing I'm learning to fly with a field elevation of 6'350... If the red knob ain't played with I don't have the power in the 'ol 172A to get a good mag check let alone get off the ground.:eek:
 
Guess it's a good thing I'm learning to fly with a field elevation of 6'350... If the red knob ain't played with I don't have the power in the 'ol 172A to get a good mag check let alone get off the ground.:eek:

I guess this is why I started the thread. I learned to fly behind Rotax 912's that automatically leaned the engine. When I got my PPL I was told not to touch the red knob. I always thought to myself; "Then why in the heck put it in the plane?" :eek: So I started to ask around and found out the real deal about leaning. Then having attended several Oshkosh forums, ect., it becomes pretty clear that this leaning was being mis-taught.

This is why I love this site and love flying. Learning, mechanics, physics, building, maintenance, flying skills, everything about aviation. Hopefully, I can help others along the way as I learn too.
 
Matt, with all due respect this simply is not true, LOP operations have been around a long time.

It is well know that Charles Lindberg used LOP to cross the Atlantic in 1927, and LOP operations helped win WWII not in theory, but in aerial combat....

To say the operating range of LOP is smaller is accurate, but certainly you are not going to "blow your engine up" if you set the engine up properly. It is not hard, in fact it is very simple. If you can run a clip board & a pencil you can run a standard Injector Nozzle Tuning flow test and record the results. Change the restrictors to get the cylinders to peak at about the same fuel flow rate and you now have an engine set up to run LOP all day long. The engine will run cooler, and longer.

Geico266- Thanks for the dialogue. Just so you know I (nor EI) preach LOP OR ROP, I follow the science of both.

In my opinion the keywords you wrote were: "if you set the engine up properly". I study this stuff daily and personally would have a very difficult time in determining mixture point, and literal proximity to peak EGT, w/ out a multi point EGT analyzer. I am sure Lindbergh had some of his own techniques, as I am sure Hughes and others did. Fundamentally experimental, unproven for the most part, and likely beyond the efficacy of the average modern pilot. The bottom line is the science, and it's very very clear.

Here is some of it: "Haywood, J.B. Professor of Mechanical Engineering, Director, (1988). Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals, MIT, Mcgraw-Hill inc."

The number one concern with LOP operation quite plainly is with detonation issues. This is due to the fact that detonation is probably the most destructive operating condition for any engine. Why is it a concern LOP? It's because of the proximity to "peak" in which you must operate (as you lean beyond peak). We know that an engine is MOST susceptible to detonation at peak EGT.

Light (incipient) to moderate (limiting) detonation can lead to heavy detonation.

What is detonation?

Once the fuel/air mixture (charge) is ignited in the combustion chamber the charge will burn at a uniform rate. The last portion of the charge to burn ("end gas") is where detonation will occur. When cylinder pressure is high (produced by power) and surface temps at the location of the gas is high, the end gas will auto-ignite and burn at a rapid rate (Ref. Heywood, 375). This causes the peak pressure in the cylinder to occur early and spike to a level which can be 10-50% higher than normal. Detonation can cause pressure in a O-470 engine to go from 11 tons to over 15 tons.

Unfortunately it is very easy to operate an aircraft engine in a manner that will produce detonation and engine damage. It is up to the pilot to operate the engine in a manner which will prevent detonation. Light to moderate detonation most likely will go unnoticed, it is a indication that heat energy is being transferred to susceptible parts of the combustion chamber. I know this is an experimental forum but FAR 33.47 very clearly states "each engine must be tested to establish that the engine can function without detonation throughout it's intended condition of operation." AC 33.47-1 outlines the detonation testes required by the FAA to T.C. (Type Certify) an engine to an aircraft.

Detonation can cause engine damage through to mechanisms:

1. Excessive Cylinder Head Pressure- Excessive pressure in a cylinder produced by detonation can cause cracks at the spark plug hole, injector port and exhaust valve port, broken rings, and broken ring lands. These kinds of serious problems are NOT uncommon.

2. Excessive Heat Transfer- When detonation occurs the end gases burn approx. 5-25 times faster than normal. This rapid burn produces a pressure wave (around 5,000 Hz) to bounces off the cylinder walls and can be heard as a knocking sound in an automobile but can not be heard in an aircraft engine. This high energy pressure wave increases the transfer of heat combustion (approx 4,000 deg. F) to the top of the piston and top of the exhaust valve. In extreme case where preignition is present, a hole can be melted through the top of the piston.

We all understand physical damage but heat damage to detonation may cause more problems than some pilots realize. Any sign of dimpling or erosion on the edge of a piston or exhaust valve is a serious matter which may require a change in leaning and/or operational methods.

Again, it is paramount to engine health that a pilot should ALWAYS operate an aircraft engine in a manner to AVOID detonation. This is the concern with LOP operation historically. It does not say that advocates of LOP are wrong on incorrect in there techniques but it is the concern.

Thanks for the chance to share this information!

Matt Sharp

A couple more fun detonation fact-odums:

1. Advancing your timing will increase peak cylinder pressure and chance of detonation.

2. Increasing RPM reduces burn time, wich slightly reduces chance of detonation. (Ref. Taylor2, Another MIT study)

3. Increased humidity has shown a tendency to reduce detonation.

4. Compression, you guessed it, higher the compression, higher the chances of detonation.
 
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Leaning Engines

No problems with leaning engines here. I had a slant six back in the '70's, "the leaning tower of power".;)