[Dad's RV-10]

I?m surprised Van?s doesn?t have web-based forum similar to what many tech companies have. If Van?s encourages builders to contact the factory when they have questions or concerns, why not establish a web forum for doing so?

While this forum is an excellent reference, it doesn?t seem that any Van?s employees respond to the posts.

Wouldn?t it be nice to have a searchable database with ?official? responses to common (and not so common) questions?

Is it a liability thing? I don?t see why. If Van?s is willing to answer your questions over the phone, why not respond in writing so everyone can benefit?

Brad

 

[mlw450802]

I?m surprised Van?s doesn?t have web-based forum similar to what many tech companies have. If Van?s encourages builders to contact the factory when they have questions or concerns, why not establish a web forum for doing so?

While this forum is an excellent reference, it doesn?t seem that any Van?s employees respond to the posts.

Wouldn?t it be nice to have a searchable database with ?official? responses to common (and not so common) questions?

Is it a liability thing? I don?t see why. If Van?s is willing to answer your questions over the phone, why not respond in writing so everyone can benefit?

Brad

This is a question that probably needs to be asked of VANS.

I'm sure opinions and speculations abound, but unless you ask it of Van's directly, then no "official" responses will likely be gleaned here.
I think that, while one could get official responses to questions, the answers might be somewhat sterile and would lack the opinions and experiences you get in this forum.

-Mike

 

[JohnR]

A knowledge base would be nice

I know I use knowledge bases to research issues fairly often on other things. I can see where a web-based knowledge base would be nice as a builder resource. Maybe I'll ask Van's next time I talk to someone there.

 

[f1rocket]

History Lesson

There's a little bit of history on this topic. Traditionally, Van's has not been that "high tech" from an internet perspective. They'll tell you that they prefer to focus on delivering kits and parts to builders than getting involved for the umptenth time in a discussion regarding priming, tailwheel/nosewheel, etc.

There are "other" lists that have been frequented by some of Van's employees in the past. However, they usually get run off by posters who want to bash them in the face instead of resolve their problems. It gets ugly quickly as other folks jump in to defend Van's and others defend the basher's right to bash. That's one of the reason's THIS forum exists.

In the end, there's so much RV knowledge on this forum that there's not much in the way of support or answers that can't be found.

 

[Dad's RV-10]

I think that, while one could get official responses to questions, the answers might be somewhat sterile and would lack the opinions and experiences you get in this forum.

While that might be true, this board often offers opinion. Aren?t there times when you need fact and not opinion?

There's a little bit of history on this topic. Traditionally, Van's has not been that "high tech" from an internet perspective. They'll tell you that they prefer to focus on delivering kits and parts to builders than getting involved for the umptenth time in a discussion regarding priming, tailwheel/nosewheel, etc.

All the more reason to have a forum. Rather than taking the time to respond to the same question from hundreds of builders, answer it once in writing.

That's one of the reason's THIS forum exists.

In the end, there's so much RV knowledge on this forum that there's not much in the way of support or answers that can't be found.

Again, I think this forum is an excellent resource, but it still seems to me that many of the posts on this forum begin with "I called Van's today and..." As helpful as this forum is, there are obviously times when builders want to talk to the source.

I'm not implying in the least that this forum isn't an excellent source of valuable information. It has been (and will continue to be) an asset to many builders. But as long as Van's is willing to answer questions, I think it would be beneficial to know their response.

In the end, I would think doing so would reduce the phone traffic Van's receives and allow them, as you have said, to focus on delivering kits.

Brad

 

[Scott Will]

I think if Van's set up some sort of knowledge base, sort of like how Microsoft has, then that would help everyone. Just imagine how many less phone calls they could possibly field and how much of a better mood everyone would be in. Plus, they could even host pictures or drawings to help out.

my philosophy when doing coding at work or building airplanes at night is, most all of the time, someone has "been there, done that". We all can benefit from looking at what's already been done.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

RVator, web site, e-mail and phone

RVator, e-mail and customer support phone is available. Van's site is not a real builder support resource I will admit, except for a few service letters. You also have the best drawings and builder manual Van's has every produced, although it is still not perfect.

You have the second hand source such as the 25-year compilation of the RVator, this forum, yahoo and matronics. If you don't know what "matronics" is you should find out. There is a powerful search engine and you can find any current or historical info you could ever want. Granted there is a lot of opinions and non-value added info, I always go to matronics first**. Than I scan builder sites. I have a pretty complete RVator library for the last 15 years. I also go to the Dead Sea scrolls, Tony Bingelis, the old, new and newer testaments of sportplane building. There are basics in these tomes of great use.

The most important revelation in how we build is the Internet. There are 100's of builder sites with pictures. Pictures are worth several pages of text in the builder manual. When I built my first RV in the late 80?s, you where in a vacuum. You where lucky to visit one other builder who was a head of you. Some of Van's employees, like Scott participated in forums, like matronics in the early days. Other wise you had the phone call to Van's and the RVator. Also the builder manual and drawings where weak.

I think there is so much info, I am not sure how you can want more. An omniscient all knowing database would be great but who is going to take the time to populate this database? With pre-punched kits, good builder manual and drawings, that are better than ever, I think we have it pretty easy.

If you have a specific question there are about 3 or 4 ways to get an answer. I don't see a need for a datbase, FAQ, but I guess it could not hurt. What I would love is an index to every RVator. There was one started long ago but it is very incomplete and out of date. Anyone want to tackle that project? G

**The problem with some forums is the search engine. Matronics is the best in this regard. Yahoo is useless. This forum has a fairly good search engine, but you have to make the effort. Almost any question you have has been asked. You just need to learn a few "tools" on how find the data. Even if you had a database people would be still asking, what is edge margin.

 

[JohnR]

gmcjetpilot - I agree we have a tremendous amount of information available. My thought was that if there was a Van's supported knowledge base it would be the deciding factor many times without having to call Van's. This website, Yahoo, and Matronics are all great, I've learned a tremendous amount from them already. The builder sites are also a tremendous resource for all of us and eventually I plan on adding my own that will hopefully help someone else out someday. However as a semi-geek I also am aware that the Internet can provide a lot of disinformation which can get some people in trouble, I see it almost everyday in my work.

I would be highly surprised if Van's doesn't have an internal knowledge base already. It is not a small job converting an internal KB to one that can be used by the public (I've helped do it), however the rewards are great for the end users and the company, in this case Van's. It could save many phone calls, easily over 20% by volume has been my experience.

None of this is suggesting that we don't already have it better than builders before us, because we do. I am just somewhat spoiled by KB's that I use frequently and it would be nice as a final reference point to reference the "suggestions from Van's" as we move forward.

It sounds like Air UPSer is used to using KB's much as I do.

In the mean time I just want ot get my shop done so I can start "pounding rivets"!

 

[Kyle Boatright]

I'm guessing Van's doesn't have a web based forum is because would make it too easy for busybodies, not-so-smart people, and people with too much time on their hands to consume valuable company resources. Instead, if you need factory support, you've gotta take your time to call (add in a little cost too) or wait 24 hours for an e-mail response. I'm guessing this cuts down their need to provide customer support by a factor of 10.

The system works - Those who really need support get it, and those who don't really need it get it elsewhere or figure it out themselves.

 

[Dad's RV-10]

GMC?I don?t disagree. There is a lot of good info out there. The RVator, the construction manual, Yahoo!, Matronics and builders web-logs are all excellent sources of information and I?m familiar with all of them. Believe me, as a commuter I spend countless hours in my crash-pad reading web-logs (I?m on reserve and rarely get called to fly).

Insofar as your statement ?I think there is so much info, I am not sure how you can want more,? once again, there might be some instances when a builder might prefer getting their information from engineers who designed the aircraft. If this weren?t the case, I doubt Van?s would have as many phone calls as they do. While I?m sure that on any given day Van?s receives the same old ?should I prime my airplane? type questions, I?d assume they also receive some very critical technical questions. If they?re already taking the time to respond to those questions on the phone or via email, why not post them for all read?

As Scott Will points out, Microsoft maintains an incredibly extensive knowledge base. There are a lot more Microsoft users out there than there are RV builders. There are countless non-Microsoft websites devoted to debugging and optimizing Microsoft products as well as a mountain of books available. But Microsoft doesn?t defer support of its product to its customers. Although I?ve often used second and third hand web information to fix a Microsoft issue, I feel more confident when that information comes straight from MS.

I?m not trying to argue the point. I think all of the above mentioned resources are invaluable tools and I plan to continue to reference them all as I get closer to starting my project, but I would feel more comfortable if Van?s provided a similar forum.

From reading your posts I gather you are a ?repeat offender.? I will be a first time builder and I?m not an engineer. I won?t have the benefit of hindsight. As far as I?m concerned I can never have too much information.

Brad

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Never too much info

Insofar as your statement ?I think there is so much info, I am not sure how you can want more,? once again, there might be some instances when a builder might prefer getting their information from engineers who designed the aircraft. If this weren?t the case, I doubt Van?s would have as many phone calls as they do. Brad

I agree that it would be another avenue for Van to disseminate info. Points well taken.


Vans customer support: I find their function is as much encouragement (hand holding), "you can do it", as it is info. I think Van has asked builders to use e-mail because it gives them time to research the question or route it to the best source. Also I have always got thru to Van?s help line right away, no waiting. I have waited for ridiculous amounts of time waiting on other companies customer support lines. When I finally get thru to customer support for these other products, it is Roger with an Indian accent, with canned questions and answers. Van?s is USA, made and supported. How many companies have employees who use the product and know it so well? Also working the phone they get the same builder questions, which to be fair are for newer first time builders, so they know the answers.

How would a Van?s internet forum help?

Why not, Dynon and Blue mountain avionics have added forums on their site. I think Van is worried the forum will be high jacked and boondoggled with people asking preference questions or posting non builder questions. Van is really a small company and the time his employees are typing, they are not packing boxes of parts. If they sponsor the forum there is an expectation they will answer every question. On the other hand they could answer most of these questions with ?read the intro in your builders manual?. Builder support is an important part of selling kit planes and I think Vans phone and e-mail is adequate.


In many years of calling Van's I never talked to the Van-the-man, although I have meet him and talked to him several times in person. Can you imagine calling Microsoft and talking to Bill Gates or the engineer who wrote the code! My point is you call Van you usually talk to another builder, the same kind of people you can contact on any forum, builders. In fact I am blown away with the knowledge and expertise the people who contribute to some of these forums. I know I have learned a lot. I guess I will revise my statement, you can never have too much info, but at some point you have to drill holes and pound rivets. You will make mistakes and there is no substitute to just doing it. G

 

[L.Adamson]

In all these years, which is too many to admit (9), I've never had to call Van's with a building question. I've found everything I need & more, through the many "already" existing forums & websites.

I don't think we need a special Van's site, but that's my opinion.

L.Adamson RV6A

 

[f1rocket]

This is why they don't have one.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=3139

 

[Scott Will]

I hate to call Vans for builder support. I don't know why but I do. There... I said it. Had to get it off my chest. While I don't ever doubt their experience and wisdom, I often come away with the feeling that they think "why did you do that?" or "how could that happen?" not "how can we fix this".

I have worked both sides of the customer support angle - the airline engineer and OEM engineer role. While Van's customer base is slightly different than say, the Boeing base, I just get the feeling that they want me off the phone as quickly as possible (which I understand since there's probably lots of others calling in).

With all these great personal sites and sites like this as well as local builder support, I feel the solutions come faster and are more practical.

I'd love some kind of organized knowledge base. And I'd almost volunteer to take that on (after I get mine flying).

 

[rv8ch]

Van's support

I just get the feeling that they want me off the phone as quickly as possible

What time do you call them? I call at 7am their time, which is 4pm my time, and I always get someone on the first or second ring. They are often a bit groggy, but give me whatever amount of time I need, between sips of coffee. I probably call them on average once a month.

 

[rv9aviator]

I have only called twice needing help in a year and a half and both times the folks were very cordial and took all the time I needed to understand what they were telling me. I never even touched a sheet metal tool before starting my RV-9A kit and still only needed help twice. That says volumes about the quality of their kits. I have learned a tremendous amount from the builders web sites and visited with some of the friendliest RV'ers in the world that offered their help also. What a Country!