eric_marsh

eric_marsh

Well Known Member
After too many days and weeks of having my time taken up by a myriad of other obligations this weekend was my own. I wanted to spend it doing something just for me - working on my RV-6. I'm working on the right wing and my current goal was to fit the ribs to the spar and reinforcing angles.

The weekend has come and gone. The ribs (except for the tank ribs) have been fit and all the necessary holes drilled. I took my time, doing the job carefully to make sure that everything is done correctly, or at least as correctly as I can get it.

But looking back I have to wonder why the job took so long. It doesn't seem like I really did all that much.

Sunday night I concluded that this is going to take some time and I might as well just relax and enjoy the building process. My 58th birthday is in a couple weeks. I hope I get this thing done before I'm too old to pass a medical. :confused:
 
Eric,

It does seem to take forever to get it completely built. I started 4 yers and 9 months ago but I now have an airworthy certficate and I've made 8 flights. It is well worth the time. RVs are incredible airplanes.

I remember being in your shoes very well. Try to do something everyday and eventually you'll run out of something to do. Enjoy the build......I already miss it.
 
It does take too long. I think after getting through the first one, if I chose to do it again, at least for me, anyway, I think I ought to be able cut the time by three-fourths or more. I say this because of all of the time I have spent figuring out how to go about doing something. I think I?m easily going to have well over 5,000 hours in my 4, but probably only 1,500 hours or so of actually building it. The rest was thinking things through. It?s heck when you don?t have an EAA chapter or anybody else near by to give you guidance. A few guys that dropped by were tube and fabric guys.

My shop is also always a work in progress. More tools are getting ordered on a regular basis, shop has been rearranged multiple times. I'm currently setting up a home-made paint booth for priming parts next, which also involves having air pumped in the mask of which I may make my own air box as well.

With distractions, I just fly by the seat of my pants these days. Gosh, what you plan, and what actually happens that day is often so different, I'm just winging it on a day to day basis now.

Losing the medical is always a concern. I'm 52, and hope I have bought me some extra time, by taking care of myself better. I've been jogging reguarly the last couple of years: 5k 3X a week. I keep my weight at a reasonable level, and try to eat somewhat well also. You'll really notice a difference in your blood work by taking these steps.

I want to do a great job, and don't want to rush it. So, like a few others here, I have decided to go get something else flying for now.
 
I am thinking that next time around it should go much more quickly. It seems like I'm spending a fair amount of time making sure that I'm not making any mistakes, not to mention time finding parts in inventory and so forth.

If I had the money I'd buy myself a Cessna 150 or the like, just to get some hours in. Of course that would take away from my build time.

It's not an entirely unpleasant way to spend time though.
 
Eric, I can only say it gets much better as time goes on..

Frankly, reading all the Vans postings started to make me think I couldn't possibly build a correct airplane and all those jokes about, '' and you're actually going to get in that and fly it??" from friends became an annoyance. Like others have said, we are not building a space shuttle and the RV-6 is a rugged aircraft that could fly with 50% mistakes (my joke). What I was doing was staring at the parts wondering what have I missed that ties into building of this part that will be wrong because I should have know about it but didn't...... I can only say that I studied hard for over a year, practiced with a training kit and more, and plowed into the wing with angst. Now, looking back, I was waaayyyy to worried about making a mistake. Just fix mistakes and move on. Don't focus on being perfect even though that is a goal of mine. I accept the fact I am not building a perfect airplane, but I am building an airplane perfect for me.
And, remember that when you come across something that reminds you you should have known better, just fix it and move on.
 
Five minute a day plan

Someone said to do something everyday. That really works. I tell builders to spend five minutes a day on their plane. Five minutes! Anyone can fit in five minutes a day, right?

Ok, there's a trick! Like a good book on your night stand, the hardest part is to pick it up, and start reading. But, as soon as you start reading, you get into the story, and your probably won't stop reading until you reach the end of that chapter. I found the hardest part building the Doll was getting off my butt and going out to the shop and picking up a tool. But....... just like reading that book, once I got started on my five minutes, I couldn't seem to stop. Then, I'd look up at the clock and hours had passed. That's the trick.

The Doll was a slow build and it took me two years and seven month to complete, including the paint job. I know that most builders will not work that fast, but the five minutes a day plan will really speed up your project.
 
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It's just "airplane time" man!

Take your best guess and multiply by 3.

The sooner you accept this, the less you'll stress over it.

When I ask my brother for a hand, he'll ask how long. I'll reply "oh, a couple of hours max."

So he plans for 6.

Whatchagonnado? :rolleyes:
 
Veetail88 said:
Take your best guess and multiply by 3.

The sooner you accept this, the less you'll stress over it.

When I ask my brother for a hand, he'll ask how long. I'll reply "oh, a couple of hours max."

So he plans for 6.
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In my experience even if you applied the "3 times rule" when you made your original estimate, it still takes at least two times as long as your estimate to do any significant job. If you judge the job as insignificant, it'll take four times as long as the estimate - if the job looks quick, you must have missed something.
 
small tasks

Building an airplane is no small task.

Actually, its a "bazillion" small tasks all strung together.

Many times during my build, I felt like the lone Hebrew slave building the great pyramid of Geza - a daunting task unlikely to be completed in one (or several) lifetimes.

The day's goal was never to "build a plane" rather it was something like "today I'm going to fab these two brackets on sheet xx....."

Eventually you will run out of tasks and you'll have an airplane.

Looking back, it really did go fast.

Just stay at it!

Dave
-9A flying
 
Danny King said:
Someone said to do something everyday. That really works. I tell builders to spend five minutes a day on their plane. Five minutes! Anyone can fit in five minutes a day, right?
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You know, I really like that idea. In fact, I just spent five minutes making a spacer for the aileron bell crank mounts. While I'm out here I might as well lay them out on the rib and see what else I can get done.

:D
 
I really bought into the "do something no matter how small every chance you get" theory. It works!
 
Danny King said:
Ok, there's a trick! Like a good book on your night stand, the hardest part is to pick it up, and start reading. But, as soon as you start reading, you get into the story, and your probably won't stop reading until you reach the end of that chapter. I found the hardest part building the Doll was getting off my butt and going out to the shop and picking up a tool. But....... just like reading that book, once I got started on my five minutes, I couldn't seem to stop. Then, I'd look up at the clock and hours had passed. That's the trick.

The Doll was a slow build and it took me two years and seven month to complete, including the paint job. I know that most builders will not work that fast, but the five minutes a day plan will really speed up your project.
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I like this attitude as well. It's like you say too, the trick is just getting out in the shop and doing something. If you are making progress, it's real easy for that five minutes to turn into hours. Not so easy, if one doesn't know or isn't so sure about what the plans or correct procedure should be.

Another problem that Glasiar aircraft noticed is the organization of the shop and how much time is spent looking for tools or parts. All of theirs is pretty much all there. No ordering, or waiting involved. They calculate their factory assist program is about 85% efficient vs the homebuiler's of 20%. The jigs are already made. My shop for the first time build is going to be a work in progress until it finishes, if it ever does.

Glasair aircraft seems to know a lot about why it takes so long. They have this program in which you build your aircraft yourself in less than two weeks at their factory, and is ready to taxi during that time. It also meets the 51% rule. This is an interesting 5 page story, and explains how an organized shop makes all the difference in the world and why they are far more efficient having the builder there at their shop, than at theirs: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/11/diy-airplane-gets-you-flying-in-14-days/

Van’s has probably got enough irons in the fire, but perhaps some other builder could organize such a shop similar to Glasair’s. It would take a very big organized shop that probably couldn't match the factory's efficiency, but it would still be very worthwhile to many, that would participate in such a thing if it existed. Even in this lousy economy, I think this would go over big.
 
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wrongway john said:
Another problem that Glasiar aircraft noticed is the organization of the shop and how much time is spent looking for tools or parts. All of theirs is pretty much all there. No ordering, or waiting involved. They calculate their factory assist program is about 85% efficient vs the homebuiler's of 20%. The jigs are already made. My shop for the first time build is going to be a work in progress until it finishes, if it ever does.
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There is a similar thread currently running and I posted this link for those who haven't seen this article on shop time management I wrote several years ago:

Working Smart

An airplane is a huge project and must be approached in a methodical, consistent manner.
 
organized is key

Having an organized shop is Key to working smart. I wish I could help beginners get started. But unfortunaly some are beyond help.
I have seen hoplesely disorganized 'shops'. As I have have been called out to help on a lot of RV builds. I have seen some really good ones too. But not as often. I think the ones that have a good shop just do not need me. Makes since to me.
 
wrongway john said:
Van?s has probably got enough irons in the fire, but perhaps some other builder could organize such a shop similar to Glasair?s. It would take a very big organized shop that probably couldn't match the factory's efficiency, but it would still be very worthwhile to many, that would participate in such a thing if it existed. Even in this lousy economy, I think this would go over big.
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Van's already has at least one of these places that I know of. Mr. Jay Pratt's RV Central. When I visited Jay a 2 or 3 years ago when I had just started, I was amazed at how organized his shop was. Though I've tried to mimick that in mine, I've failed miserably. You guys in Texas have all the neat stuff! :)
 
Dont feel bad.....

I have been working on my slow built 6 for over 12 years.

There were large chunks of time lost to the build while I grew our business.

I am also meticulous in attention, sometimes even in results.

Get a BIG calender and log your time each month on each days square and see if you can get X# of hours in each month consistently.

At the end of the project add up the pages. You will have fun reviewing the notes you put in each days square.

Remember Have Fun!:)
 
It?s good to have Jay?s input on this. It?s not his first rodeo, that?s for sure. Assuming Jay can work me in when that time comes, I imagine that may be the time I bring in the 4 for the FWF package, assuming he handles such cases as that too. I?ve been to Hick?s Airport a few times, haven?t stopped by to see Jay?s place yet, but been to Avery?s a few times. That whole airport is hopping with RV activity.

I took a look at Jay?s homepage. On his site, he gives a time frame of 8 months if you start with the Quickbuild kit. I imagine Jay doing his own build with a QB kit could probably beat that time by a wide margin as well, since he has built so many.

I remember many years back reading from one builder who built a RV-6 from a standard kit in four months. I think this was back before they even had pre-punched skins, and the kits still weren?t nearly as advanced. Many said the workmanship was good on it too; not Oshkosh Grand Champion material, but better than the average plane. Can?t remember his name, but he did this by himself. I remember the article commenting by saying just think what he could do with a QB kit.

When asked how he did it, I remember a few things. He had built before, so knew what was to be expected. Of course his jigs were ready as well as his shop. He thought working short periods of time was one of the most inefficient ways to build a plane. He believed in working long hours at a stretch, that way, he said, you know where everything is at, no time wasted on looking for parts and tools, and he thought you stayed more focused on what needed to be done this way too.

Another thing he did, as soon as he inventoried the kit, was to immediately prime everything that needed priming. After assembly, he went back and touched up the parts that needed it.

Glasair says in the article:
Glasair knew much of the time spent building an airplane isn?t actually spent building an airplane. A lot of it is spent tracking down tools, searching for parts and trying to make heads or tails of the instruction manual. If it could shave a lot of that time out of the process and still let customers do the heavy lifting, it could stay within the 51 percent rule.
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Their program does it in 11 days, working 10 hour days. I doubt their kits are not that far different or advanced than Van?s. They all have to meet what the FAA thinks is the builder doing the 51% rule and I think both factories do about as much as they can in this area.

What would you envision a Super Efficient Builder program from Van?s or somebody else?s shop looking like to start getting their times similar to Glasair?s and still meet the 51% rule? I think this would be a worthy goal. Could it be done? If not 11 days, at least a three week or maybe a six week program to shoot for.
 
Keep Plugging Away

From glancing at your blog, it seems you bought a kit from someone else who started on that project and gave up? Looks to be a "slow" build project? That was why I decided to go with a quick build 6A kit. And my quick build took me @ 6years to complete. So work on it a bit at a time each day and you will get it done one piece at a time.

My second quick build 8A went together in less than two years so your learning curve does improve exponentially.

Allan Stern
RV 6A and RV 8A
 
Jaypratt said:
Having an organized shop is Key to working smart. I wish I could help beginners get started. But unfortunaly some are beyond help.
I have seen hoplesely disorganized 'shops'. As I have have been called out to help on a lot of RV builds. I have seen some really good ones too. But not as often. I think the ones that have a good shop just do not need me. Makes since to me.
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Jay,
I am glad you were around when I needed your help. I cannot put into words how much I appreciate your help. THANK YOU for getting me moving forward on my project when you did. I will admit here that I was really struggling before you gave me the push I needed. I would not have a flying RV if it was not for you!

As so many others have said, just stay with it. Perseverance is the most important skill needed to build these planes. Just keep plugging away one little task at a time and it will come together. If you were like me and struggling to get something done, ask for help from someone. It will all be worth it when you finish.

Quote for all you sci-fi spoof fans; From the movie Galaxy Quest:
NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!
 
Allan Stern said:
From glancing at your blog, it seems you bought a kit from someone else who started on that project and gave up? Looks to be a "slow" build project? That was why I decided to go with a quick build 6A kit. And my quick build took me @ 6years to complete. So work on it a bit at a time each day and you will get it done one piece at a time.
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Yes, my kit is a very old one, so it's a slow build. As far as I can tell it was sold somewhere around 1992 which means that it doesn't even have the punched skins. I've had to do a number of things that the owner of a new kit wouldn't have to do such as cut lighting holes into ribs and of course drill the skins. This doesn't really bother me much, it gives me some additional things to learn and do.

I've got two metal shelf sets in my shop. When I inventoried everything I created a spread sheet identifying which shelf each part went on to. Even so sometimes it takes some time trying to find a particular item. Not so long as it would take otherwise though.

While my kit is old it appears to have been stored well. Everything is in good shape and only a handful of items are missing. There are some parts that have been superseded and in fact I just ordered the W-425 set to upgrade the W-419s in the original drawings.

Since I wrote this article I've made a point of spending that five minutes each day it it seems to be making a real difference. Great idea! That should do a lot to put things back on track.
 
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