JoeM

JoeM

Active Member
I am in the decision phase of building and am looking for some input as to why you chose the RV-12. I am considering three models, the RV-12, Sonex and the Zodiac. All appear to be similar and the RV was my first choice but I was looking at the others because of engine and avionics options. I am following the Jabiru installation on VAF and like that, I would just prefer direct drive. I would be ok with steam gauges, engine monitor, comm, GPS of my choice and real circuit breakers over the auto fuses. Useful load is also a consideration as I weigh about 230 and could be limited to skinny passengers or low fuel loads. I plan to use the plane for some x-country use so speed is the reason for these three choices over the tube and fabric types. I do not plan to progress beyond Sport Pilot or a -7 would be my choice.

This site has been my inspiration to build and the majority of what I have learned about kit building has come from this site. Thanks to everyone involved.
 
I'll list a couple: First, the completeness of the kit. Nothing else to buy, keeping logistics to a minimum.

Second, the resale and the reputation. Also, I have built a 9A, so I understood the company. Those things are hard to beat.

Bob
 
Hey Joe -

I'd suggest getting a LONG ride in all 3 models you are thinking about. Try to have similar weather. ( I know - a lot of things to try to get right ). If you want your own dash design, not sure which will be better to do. You can spend LOTS of time doing your own wiring, and YOU will be the debugger. I'd start with the rides first. One might just feel better to you, and make more sense. As you get older, getting in and out becomes an issue too.

John Bender
 
Avionics

I was an avionics tech in USAF for 20 years but that was almost 20 years ago. I think I would enjoy doing the avionics but a lot has changed.
 
easiest to build

The RV-12 will be the easiest to build because most of the parts are already made and the plans are detailed with many pictures. Whenever the plans are confusing, an explanation can be found on VansAirforce. The whole project is more of assembly and less of fabrication. The RV-12 can be registered as E-AB if desired. As such you can build the plane anyway that you want to using any engine and any instruments. You can even put circuit breakers on the panel, although fuses cost less, weigh less, and offer better circuit protection. Fuses are not resettable but there are no critical circuits that can not wait until you get on the ground to fix. The Dynon D-180 has an internal backup battery. Some pilots have crashed while trying to troubleshoot a minor electrical problem. Chances are that any malfunction that blows a fuse would also make a circuit breaker un-resettable.
The Zenith 650 has more engine options. The Sonex can be built for a lot less money. The RV-12 will have a higher resale value if registered as E-LSA and chances are that it will weigh less and perform better than a modified one.
I chose the RV-12 because Van's Aircraft sells great airplane kits.
Joe Gores
 
Well, hard to add to all that. I too had to make the same choices you are considering.
Some of the factors that swung me to the 12, were time to complete (I am 73 years old and I wanted to FLY) and useful load. The speed of the Sonex was appealing to me too, I want to use my plane for long cross country flights too. However you need to sit in a Sonex with a passenger once to see of your size (similar to mine) even fits. Real tight! And when you compare useful load of the two, RV 12 wins over most all others.
I wantd things like an autopilot, Skyview panel, real comfort and elbow room. It is more expensive sure, but the resale is higher as well. I have never regretted my choice for one minute, especially as I see my progress in comparison to the others.
That said, when I am done with the 12, I intend to build an OneX just to keep busy.
 
Hi Joe, I weigh 235 and fit very well in the 12. Another passenger with similar girth will also fit. First, let me say that in my opinion, the Sonex is not truly comparable. If you price out the 12 and the Sonex airframe, you will not find a huge difference in price. When you compare the Aero Vee and the Rotax (which you really shouldn't) and the avionics package you will find a large price difference. I don't know too much about the Jabiru, but the Rotax is proven without question. I will admit it is a different rubber band but so far I am satisfied. If you can somehow see the two side by side, which I was able to last year at OKosh, (the booth's were adjacent to each other), I think you will see that they are really two different levels of a/c. Now compare the reputation of Van's to Monnet. A friend of mine built a Sonex and was not impressed with the Monnet boys. I am just repeating what he told me! Any time you call Van's you will get service. These are true airplane people! Finally, are there 7,304 Sonex airplanes flying? I have said it before, I would hate to be trying to compete with a Van's product. BTW, my friend has had nothing but trouble with the Aero Vee. Good luck with your choice and again, these are just my opinions. Always compare apples to apples.
 
Just to counter the slam about the "Monnett boys", I have personally known John and Jeremy for years, and have to say that they are some fine people. John personally gave me a tour of his entire facility a few months ago. There are things I believe he has done better than Van's, for instance with the Sonex you get a plastic one piece molded fuel tank, and I told him I wish Vans would do that as well. I think it is summed up pretty well, when I mentioned to John that I was building an RV12, his response was something like "what good is an airplane that you cannot go upside down in?" Sonex believes strongly in aerobatic planes period. The people I know have had wonderful luck with the AeroVee, and check out the price of an overhaul of one of them beside the cost of an overhaul on the Rotax.
 
Some more thoughts on why the RV-12

Joe,
I spent quite a bit of time over the past year looking at the RV-12, the RANS S-19, the Zodiac 650 and even a little at the Sonex. My decision was based on a couple factors. First off all I learned to fly and got my Sport Pilot ticket in a Gobosh 700 with the Rotax 912. I really wanted to stick with the engine I knew. I know some folks are still not used to an engine that runs at twice the RPM's they may have been used to in the past. Granted I only have a limited experience with the engine but I like it. I have spoken to many other folks with a great deal of experience flying behind the 912 who love it.

In my quest for the right plane I also wanted a higher useful load. The Gobosh has a useful load of a little under 500 pounds. This is good for me traveling alone but i wanted to be able to take my wife and go places. This required something more than 500 pounds of useful load. The other thing I really enjoy is the glass cockpit. The Gobosh that I primarily fly has a Garmin G3X. I love the G3X glass.

So in researching the options I decided to try to visit the plants and or fly the test models of the planes I was interested in. I traveled to Mexico MO and visited the Zodiac plant. It was cool but I wasn't as impressed with their production as when I visited the RANS plant in Hayes KS. While at the RANS plant I test flew the RANS S-19. I really liked that plane and still do. The downside was the low useful load for the LSA model and you could not certificate it as E-LSA easily if at all. The Zodiac had its wing issues which appear to have been resolved but the tour of the plant and view of the kit pieces and understanding of the work involved in building led me away from the Zodiac. I then travelled to Washington DC on a business trip and met with Mitch Lock at his place in MD to fly the RV-12. I loved the way it handled and flew. It is very similar to the Gobosh in feel to me. Mitch took time to sit down and answer all the questions I had about building and the plane in general. He was great and I felt really comfortable with the -12. I also went to both Sebring and Sun N Fun to check out all of the options at both.

In the end I made the choice to go with the RV-12. I have the empennage kit under way right now (hopefully will have my tail cone finished soon and empennage completed). To put that into perspective.. I travel almost every week and only get to build on weekends. I got my tail kit only a few months ago and it has been very smooth to build. I also just got my wing kit in. I should mention I am first time builder who has never done any metal work or worked around planes previously. Another factor in my decision making process was that this was a Van's kit. They have a great legacy and have over 500 -12's ordered (probably coming up on 600) and over 100 flying. The directions are for the most part very clear. I should say I also bought the plans for the S-19 so I have compared them side by side and find Van's plans more useable.

I would highly recommend you get a ride in the -12 and see what you think. The other thing I would highly recommend is spend a few bucks and buy the homebuilt help DVD's or at least one of them to get a feel for how finished the pieces of the kit are and how easily it goes together.

Hope this helps.. Carl
 
Cabin size and usable load were the deciding factors for us

Might have gone different if I were not 6-4 and 235#. I have tried a Sonex, and I just don't fit in it well, let alone with a passenger. Sharon and I do fine in an RV-12.

The Monet aircraft are fine, but clearly different in intent and vision from Van designs. Nothing wrong with either and they address different mission IMO.
 
A few reasons ...

Not necessarily in any order:

1. It's a complete kit - no need to find and custom-fit engines, avionics, etc
2. It's a one-person build - and I'm a one-person builder by nature
3. Outstanding quality of kit and plans - makes it easy
4. Relatively quick to put together - 1000hrs is my target
5. Modern avionics - just have to remember to bring the remote and the TV guide
6. Flies at Cessna speeds - fast enough for me
7. Good cross-country capability - I want to be able to go somewhere
8. Useful payload - ... and my wife may want to bring her suitcase
8. Cheaper than a -7 or -9 - the bottom line always matters
9. The wings come off - great for transport, storage and maintenance
10. Well proven engine - maybe not perfect, but then none of them are
11. EAB or E-LSA - nice to have a choice
12. Wide cockpit with a great view - good for spotting other aircraft and sightseeing
13. Well documented - Van's provide a comprehensive POH and Maintenance Manual
14. Nice plane - looks good on the ramp or flying, especially with wheel pants
15. Autopilot option - handy when I'm having lunch or a nap
16. Lighting option - money well-spent, less risk of a mid-air in bad light
17. VAF forum - great source of help and information, especially for a first-time builder - like having a virtual tech counsellor.

... and it's an RV - I've always wanted one of those!
 
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Choices

JoeM I think the RV-12 will suit yor Purpose well as for Direct drive engines there is the Jabiru ( which personally I would'nt go near.!) then the UL Power engine direct drive Aero engine that is well established in Europe & now available in the USA......just some food for thought!
 
FWIW - I too keep looking at the options (including finishing my 9). I built a spreadsheet, looked at the data and talked with some folks that have real experience building and or supplying those models - Jabiru USA. As my odometer gets more gray I start thinking more about the LSA world.

I just like the idea of a Jabiru over the Rotax. The price is better, the engine looks like a work of art, cheaper to overhaul, etc. Jabiru USA has built the S-19 & is currently building the RV-12, they've put their stuff in the Sonex and the Zenith. A couple of their employees are RV-6 builders, at least one a Zenith and others thrown into the mix as well. Call them and talk to them to get a different perspective. You may not agree based upon your needs but its always great to get a perspective from someone that has been there and done that. They may not recommend but they may tell you about thier experiences.

The Sonex in a sense is really in a different class. Only 1100 punds gross (with the Aero-Vee - which is 80 horsepower). The Jabiru 3300 bumps the gross up to 1150. The RV-12, Zenith and S-19 gross weight is 1320 (LSA). The Sonex has a cockpit width of 40 at the sholders and 38 at the hips. The RV-12 & the rest are 43 - 44 inches wide. The Sonex can do mild aerobatics (not a big deal for me since I consider thermals aerobatic enough). The Sonex may also work best as a roomy single passenger (at least at my grossest weight), although I think I could get it to meet even the needs of including a passenger (barely - as long as my tooth brush was carbon fiber)...if only I could get 100 pounds more gross weight out of that...

Basically the Sonex (regardless of the engine used) is a little smaller plane than the others. It is aerobatic, the Aero-Vee is really inexpensive and they even have a turbo getting ready as an add on (rumored at about 2K). The kit only has a few of the parts (skins) pre-drilled compared to the RV's and unless you get the machined kit parts there's a lot of bending, sawing, hammering & rivet line layouts & drilling to do.

The Rans S-19, RV-12 & Zenith are really a little larger and you may want to think of them in that grouping. They have bigger payload (although the S-19 is a little light on useful load in the LSA config) & larger cockpits.

What really makes the Sonex less expensive is the Aero-Vee (or even the Revmaster) and you are forced to have very little in your panel since your panel is very little. I took a video last year of a local Sonex being built. You'll see my hand laid up against the panel - its a normal sized hand...http://www.vimeo.com/12303046. The Sonex has simple brakes operated by a lever. The plane is simple in concept (I mean that in a good way) which also means simple to maintain and a litttle cheaper to build.

The Sonex kit (if you add the machined parts, pre-made wing spars and dual stick options) is a little more than 18K & the RV-12 is a little more than 21k. It's the Rotax and panel that bump up the price of the 12. The S-19 kit will typically come in around 25K.

Less dollars but longer build times and a bit smaller plane the Sonex might win based upon that criteria. I like the rotationally pre-made tank but it only holds 16 gallons. I'd like a little more on the gross weight and living in high altitude enivronments more power than the Aero-Vee can currently put out (maybe the turbo would help or the Jabiru).

Ease of build is hands down won by the 12, the opposite end of the scale from what I've been able to find out is the Sonex, with the Zenith and Rans falling in between. Nothing extra to buy on the 12 is certainly appealing, user support from the factory is good on them all and even web support is good on most (of course all the flying RV's and this forum is a huge plus). Sonex has a Yahoo group (I would miss the organization of these forums).

Just to throw another wrench into the picture Dave Thatcher is working on a two place CX-5 follow on to his popular CX-4. Both run VW's.

Check out the asking prices on Barnstomers for the various models you're looking at.

Whatever you build flying is almost always better than driving (which is what I'm stuck doing)!

Bob
 
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All those things listed by rgmwa!

And I have been around RV's for the past 20 years, built and flew an RV6 so I am familar with everything VANS. I am really impressed with the quality and completeness of the -12. For me, I like building under the E-LSA rules because all most all the decisions are made. I myself, and other builder labor over all those details of the panel, interior, and paint. This plane not so much. The skyview option has cause some stir, but I too am waiting on the completion of this system before I order the avionic package.
 
Thanks!

Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts on your decision of what aircraft you chose to build. I know the best way to go would be to stick to the engine and avionics configuration Van?s designed. I guess part of building your own airplane is freedom to have things the way you want them to be. I know I do not have the skill to install a different engine on my own and would only go that route if a complete firewall forward kit was available. I do not mind registering E-AB unless someone knows of significant reasons not to go that route.

The -12 is now at the top of my list. The Van?s calendar hanging above my desk at work helps as June?s picture is of a great looking -12. :)
 
E-LSA versus E-AB

I do not mind registering E-AB unless someone knows of significant reasons not to go that route.
Click to expand...
Two reasons are:
Only 5 hours fly-off time.
After selling an E-LSA, the new owner owner can do the annual inspections after taking a 16 hour class.
You can read another thread discussing the advantages and disadvantages of E-LSA and E-AB at the link below.
Joe Gores
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=42684
 
Why I chose the RV-12

I too was looking at the Sonex, the Zodiac and also Rans' S-19 Sierra (I think that's what they call it). For me it was a couple of things. I liked the RV-12's useful load which is higher than the others and my being 240 pounds made that a priority. I also liked the 'no carb heat' knob. It's one less thing to contend with in the cockpit and what affect it has on ceiling is downplayed by the 10,00 foot limit for LS Cert pilots. Lastly I chose the RV-12 because of Vans Aircraft's track record of solid designs from the RV-3 up through the RV-10...and RV-12. Though I have only about 15 hours into the assembly of my 12, I am already confident in viewing the instructions and viewing the support on this site that I have made the right choice.

FM
 
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