bret

bret

Well Known Member
I just can not get over how expensive these aero plane engines are. The price is crazy! I can go out and build an 1800 HP (auto engine) 540 for under 20K looking at a 230ish HP 390 or what ever and you are looking at 30 to 40K. Sorry, whew, OK, just venting here. So, my question is, is it possable to go buy a core case and crank and go from there? I know A lot of HP comes from porting, piston profile, cam lift, duration, cam profile, ign timing, adv curve, head flow, blue print, exhaust, coating, fuel delivery, ect, ect, but sheesh, it's just an engine right? Just looking to see if anyone has gone down this path, gone EFII, and what were your results. Thanks for listening, just a disgruntle future engine purchaser, or builder?
 
I paid $2,600 for a wrecked airplane delivered to my hangar. I pulled the engine as a core, sold the rest and rebuilt the engine. When I said I rebuilt, I sent parts out, had some stuff put together with NEW tolerances, and installed some parts with NEW tolerances including cylinders myself. All in all, I end up with $12,000 in my engine. Now this was 24-years ago when a new engine would have cost $12,000 from Van's.

Yes it can be done depending on your abilities to scrounge and do the work.
 
Yes, do it yourself!

Bought a first-time runout (2000 hrs since new) IO-360-A3B6D for $8000 w/ logbook back in 2002. Pulled #3 jug and the oil sump and accessory housing. No problems found anywhere, so I put it back together and replaced fuel pump, oil pump (it had an AD), inspected magneto and FI parts and flew it for 100 hours (figured the engine was a known quantity and therefore reduced risk on first flight).

Since the engine hadn't been apart for 28 years (other than what I did), I decided to overhaul it after my initial 100 hours, even though it didn't exhibit signs of distress, other than using a quart of oil every 3 hours or so.

I'm happy I pulled it apart when I did when I found the center main bearing shells were polished on the back side (meant they were moving around in the bore). That would have only gotten worse with more hours and is a good reason to not stretch overhaul much past 2000 hrs or so. This is one of those things that don't show up in oil analyses and you have no way of knowing it is happening.

Sent the cylinders to ECI for their nickel-carbide bore treatment and rebuild of the heads, sent the crankcase, crank, rods to a local shop for overhaul, found a new cam/lifters/hydraulic units set on ebay for $500, and the rest of the little parts from A.E.R.O. Got rid of the dual-mag unit (even though it was one of the "good" D3000's) with dual-Lightspeed crank-triggered ignition. Sent the fuel injection parts to Don at Airflow Research for overhaul, and later matched my nozzles ala Gamijector-style.

Checked all the critical dimensions of the overhauled parts (don't trust anyone in that regard, ALWAYS check yourself). Assembled the engine and it's been great for the last 440 or so hours. Also used Loctite 518 instead of silk thread on the crankcase halves and it's dry so far. Yes, Lycoming allows 515, but that material is specifically NOT recommended for aluminum, and 518 is. Go figure.

The overhaul cost me around $8000, and about $2K for the Lightspeeds, so all told I have $18K invested to get a $30K+ angle-valve engine.

Would I do it again? Absolutely.

Heinrich
RV-6, 540 hours
 
I've done some moderate engine work on cars: Swapping an H4 motor in & out of a Subaru STi a couple times, R&Ring the heads, etc. But not really internal engine work.

For my plane, I wanted something turnkey that the experts built and broke in on a dyno so that when I get it, I know it'll be mostly hook up & start.

Call me paranoid. :)
 
Expect the worse and you won't ever be disappointed

You have to be very careful here, it's very possible and easy to end up at or near the "Box'O parts" engine price. You need to start with a good number on what one of the engine kits will cost and go from there factoring in what a new engine is worth to you vs what your rebuilt engine will be worth, both from a resale and reliability standpoint.
Any core you may buy needs to come with a guarantee that the case, crank, rods will yellow tag or else just walk. If you find one for a good price and all goes well, nothing red tags and you do it right replacing all mandatory parts and getting everything re machined, tagged, NDT testing etc I think you will still end up within $3-4K of new.
In round #s I'm in $8 k for my 700 hr Lyc reman which was not pickeld and 10 years on the floor. I was going to run it but it kept talking to me, eventually i split it open and was glad i did. I spent another $7 k for machine and parts work, another $4k for accessories, injection, ignition, starter, alternator.
So $19 K and I have a field overhauled 4600 hr engine now.
If doing again and I could get a kit for anywhere close I'd go that route.
Your mileage may vary, some assembly required....
Tim
Dues paid 2013
 
I rebuilt mine. 13 years ago, I put ~$12k into buying a core plus machine work and parts to rebuild it. I could have paid a shop about the same for a rebuilt engine. The advantage I have is that I know my core (crank, crankcase,etc) was a first run unit and that everything was done properly.

The market on engines is pretty efficient. You pay for what you get and unless you stumble across an engine in the back of someone's hangar, there aren't many great deals to be had.
 
I bought an ECi kit engine from Eagle Engines. With the help of a local IA it went together with no issues and now with over 200 hours on it, I couldn't be happier.

My wife helped me seat the valves and the IA instructed me on how to do the rest. It took one weekend to put it all together.

While it is true that if you can put together an auto engine, you can put together an airplane engine; however, airplane engines use different sealants, techniques, lubricants, etc. Some of these things are critical and some not so much. Do a LOT of research before trying to put your own engine together. Buy the Lycoming overhaul manual for the engine you want and read it from front to back and then pay a good local mechanic to watch over you as you do your first engine.

Just my $.02 worth.
 
Add me to the list doing it myself. I purchased a propstrike IO-540 V4A5 out of a wrecked 2001 Maule from Wentworth. I did the tear down, sent the parts out for inspection/repair/yellow tagged, and did the reassembly myself. Had the first engine start last weekend. :) A new engine was not in my budget.
 
I overhauled mine after pulling from another homebuilt. Worked under a very experienced A&P-IA. Learned where good (new and surplus) parts could be purchased locally and elsewhere. Soaked up knowledge from various selected people and companies. Watched ads from various places diligently for items being sold that I needed and that were priced well.

You can do it for far less than new. But it takes diligence and willingness to learn. I've been enjoying my plane and personally overhauled engine for 1585 hrs and 13 years. And neither I or the plane have spontaneously burst into flames or experienced evil demons yet for daring to not purchase brand new or a mainstream kit engine.
 
what to watch for

My engine was rebuilt over a thousand hours ago, and I'm slowly rebuilding; at some point it will be in the Grampa's ax category ("replaced the handle six times, and the head twice, but it's still Grampa's ax!")

I will update my pre-flight and condition inspection checklists; didn't know "...spontaneously burst into flames or experienced evil demons..." is something I should watch out for...;)
 
I've seen enough shoddy work from shops that are supposed professionals that I wouldn't ever let someone build one for me.

One example: a very well-known shop that advertises here built an engine for an acquaintance of mine and there was a thin washer that somehow got placed on a cylinder hold down stud and wasn't noticed when the cylinder went on over it. Needless to say that caused some problems a while after the RV-8 it was on started flying.

Engine building is not for everyone but I believe the aircraft builder who can build one not only saves money but they become more knowledgeable in diagnosing failures before they happen.
 
A different perspective, As a buyer I would not buy a aircraft unless the engine was new or built by a well known engine shop. Even if you used yellow tagged parts you can't guarantee it was brought back to new limits. I would pass, too many planes on the market to purchase one that had a unknown engine.
So whatever you save on the front end, if you ever plan to sell you might loose on the tail end. Just my 2 cents.
 
Bought my engine as run-out, first run. 2500 hrs TT. Ran great, 12 hrs/qt of oil.
Flew it for almost 3 years. Rebuilt it at 2815 hrs. All parts removed were well within serviceable tolerance.
Rebuilt to new tolerances, new Lycoming cylinders and valves.
Added 9.5:1 pistons and roller rocker arms.
So far at 825 hrs SMOH it is still running great. 16-18 hrs/qt.
 
Tim 8-A said:
A different perspective, As a buyer I would not buy a aircraft unless the engine was new or built by a well known engine shop. Even if you used yellow tagged parts you can't guarantee it was brought back to new limits. I would pass, too many planes on the market to purchase one that had a unknown engine.
So whatever you save on the front end, if you ever plan to sell you might loose on the tail end. Just my 2 cents.
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You can somewhat evaluate an engine overhaul by reading the logbook entry.
The entry should list every part and whether it is new, used, or serviceable.
If the entry doesn't cover more than one full page, beware.

If you are building your airplane for resale, that's a totally different situation. Most people build to suit themselves.
 
I have the benefit of having been to the Lycoming school - it made the work necessary on my Cherokee engine (lifter spalling) easy. Savings were indeed significant, even counting the cost of the school.

Personally, and I know there are many other opinions, I wouldn't have been comfortable without the school. There is just enough of "don't try this at home" involved from my perspective.

Having the savings as one thing, but as others have observed, when (if) the time comes to sell, the prospective buyer will probably reduce any offer on the assumption that the engine is in need of being redone.

The other thing to consider is the initial break in. At a shop, it'll be on a test stand with cooling and recording of key instrument readings. On your own, ground running could very well glaze the cylinders. You're pretty much left with a quick run to check for oil leaks, a second quick run to make sure you get takeoff power. And, then you go. Seems like a lot when you add that to a first flight. (There is a Lycoming bulletin describing the initial break in on the ground - it could be okay with nitrided steel cylinders; I don't think I'd want to do it with the ECi nickel carbides.)

YMMV

Dan
 
I bought an IO-360-C1C that came off a repo'd arrow. I bought it as a core, for $6600, without even seeing the logbooks (seller hadn't gotten them from the bank yet).

When he got the logbooks and sent them to me, to my surprise there's only 975 SMOH on it! On the other hand, it's on its 5th run, and has 5800TT. There's a yellowtag from Divco in the books for every major, and that's mostly good enough for me.

I've had the sump and accessory housing off, and it looks great inside. I've snaked a borescope up inside to get a look at the cam. At this point I'm not uncomfortable running this engine as-is. I'll run it and watch its consumption and oil analysis. If it gives me cause for concern, I'll overhaul it myself.

Like Scott said, these things are really dirt simple. If you can build a small-block chevy, you will have NO problem with a lycoming.
 
Yes & No!

tmbg said:
Like Scott said, these things are really dirt simple. If you can build a small-block chevy, you will have NO problem with a lycoming.
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Yes, Lycomings are dirt simple engines. On the other hand, they are not like a small block Chevy. Air cooled engines are quite different from water cooled ones. If you put up an air cooled engine to the tolerances of a liquid cooled one, you will be asking for trouble.

As an aside; be it known that even an A&P cannot legally overhaul a certified aircraft engine unless he has done that particular model under supervision before.
 
Interesting points made about getting parts inspected and yellow tagged for resale value. And all the appropriate log book entries. What are some of newer mods out there that would be worth considering, piston spray nozzles ect? Thanks for all the input. Bret
 
Mel said:
Yes, Lycomings are dirt simple engines. On the other hand, they are not like a small block Chevy. Air cooled engines are quite different from water cooled ones. If you put up an air cooled engine to the tolerances of a liquid cooled one, you will be asking for trouble.

As an aside; be it known that even an A&P cannot legally overhaul a certified aircraft engine unless he has done that particular model under supervision before.
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Naturally, paying attention to the Lycoming Direct Drive Overhaul Manual, and the table of limits, is called for. I'm also at an advantage in that I have an A&P and A&P/IA to peer over my shoulder at everything I do :)
 
Tim 8-A said:
A different perspective, As a buyer I would not buy a aircraft unless the engine was new or built by a well known engine shop.
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This is bad advice to give. The RV-6 I fly has an engine built by a reputable shop and I've found several things wrong with it, some of them serious that required cylinder overhaul.

The things I look for:
1. Documented AD compliance with detailed descriptions of how compliance was determined.
2. Documented main bearing clearances during assembly.
3. Main and rod dimensions (is this a last run crank?)
4. Documented rod bolt replacement.
5. All yellow tags retained.
6. Was balancing done.
7. Individual cylinder bore diameters.

...in other words, the guy who really cares about quality is the one that documents everything so the next guy doesn't have to question what was done.
 
Potential resale was a factor when I considered the issue.

A log with a new engine is always more marketable than one with a 35-40 year old engine no matter what has been done to it. But if you plan to sleep with it forever, it doesn't matter does it. :)
 
When I built my Pitts S1S I did the overhaul of its IO-360 with some help from my local engine shop. When I was building my -10 I decided to have the engine done by a pro, because there would be times I was putting 3other butts on the line.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
Just because someone has an A&P or an IA for that matter is not guarantee they know what they are doing. Just read the article in SA I think it was that documented the wrong answers that the FAA considers right required to pass the test.

Having said that a good A&P is worth their weight in gold. But overhauling these engines isn't that hard if you send out all the parts to reputable places and pay attention to every step called for in the overhaul manual. I overhauled the O-320-E2D in my -4 for the education that was in it.
 
Roller rockers

Mel,
In one of your posts you mentioned you used roller rocker arms.
Where are these available from, and now that you've had them for a while, would you use them again?
Thanks.
 
I actually installed the roller rockers in September of 1994, one and one half years and 110 hrs. before the rebuild. I wanted to prove them before the OH.
They were made by Ken Hatfield and haven't been available for quite a few years.
They are still in the engine today and I've not had any problem with them. I've also not had any noticeable valve guide wear, so they must be working.
 
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Roller Rockers

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the roller rockers made for one of the V-8 Ford engines would interchange with the rockers on our Lyc. cylinders.

Is that true? They would have to help with guide wear.
 
PaulR said:
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the roller rockers made for one of the V-8 Ford engines would interchange with the rockers on our Lyc. cylinders.

Is that true? They would have to help with guide wear.
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I could be wrong, but I think that applies only to the O-320-H2AD:

001ly320.gif


That image is from this page describing an H2AD cutaway that shows several of the features that separate that engine from its O-320 siblings.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
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Like many others, I assembled my engine from an ECI kit. (bob at Eagle Engines) I didn't save much if any money and did it for one simple reason. I wanted to! Had the help of an AP who is known to ECI and who has built many many engines in his shop that is set up just for engines. Took us three sessions to complete.

I have always been intimidated by engines and if anything didn't feel or sound right, I basically had no clue as to what it might be and there was no way I was going to put a wrench to it! Now that I have had my hands into the core of an engine, read all the documentation from several sources, studied all the drawings for hours, and actually built the engine (with professional help) I would not hesitate to dig in. I feel a lot more comfortable flying behind an engine I know intimately. Don't take it wrong, I am not qualified to build or repair an engine but at least I have a good probability of finding a problem and repairing it if it is small.

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EagleEngines said:
It may be a good option to purchase a core engine and send it in for an inspect and repair as needed (IRAN)
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Hey! thanks for chimming in, I stoped by your shop two years ago ang got a tour, I like how your mechanics came from auto race engine backrounds. I like the detail you put into the Lycoming. Bret
 
bret said:
Hey! thanks for chimming in, I stoped by your shop two years ago ang got a tour, I like how your mechanics came from auto race engine backrounds. I like the detail you put into the Lycoming. Bret
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We appreciate you giving us the chance to serve you and answer any questions you may have. If you find a decent core that you are interested in please feel free to give us a shout so we can answer any questions you may have about it. Even if we don't earn your business we'd still like to help with any troubleshooting or questions on part numbers for you. -Matt
 
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