[flion]

I thought I'd move this discussion from the Awards thread both to keep the other thread on topic and because this will probably be an interesting topic itself (which will hopefully generate more light than heat).

Is there a breakdown somewhere of how many of the winners actually built their airplanes?

That is an interesting statement coming from someone that wouldn't be finishing his airplane without lots of help from others, paid or otherwise, if the things i read on this and other internet sources are true.

Now before i get jumped on for "attacking" a loved member of the site and press (don't attack those guys...) whats the difference (between Mr. Collins getting help (paid or not) and other builders getting help (paid or not)? I think it is mostly the amount of money some people have, not breaking the regulations. Mr. Collins has been a pay as you go kind of guy for the vast majority of his build, and if he had just a little more money, wasn't looking at different employment (pay) possibilities and health care issues coming up he probably wouldn't of had to accept help from any of the caring members of the vans homebuilder community.

Some people have so much more money than that they value their time much more than doing a build for five or ten years and want their plane flying in 6 months. Is there something wrong with that? some might say it is going to threaten our ability to build, if they don't build any of it themselves. In other words, they break the law. well i say punish those that break the law, but don't restrict all the others that follow the law, even if they are paying money to get done faster! Do we think jay pratts customers are breaking the law because they get done fast and the planes look good? No! further, don't cast doubt on a whole class of award winners because there is a possibility some of them paid for help on their builds!

maybe i'm sensitive after the twtt thread but the comments that cast derision on the whole class of award winners really seem to raise my ire... i've neber built a good enough plane for an award, but i've worked on them a little. its a lot of work. they have my congratulations...

now, the most prominent (in my mind) is the orange (tangerine) rocket that was recently in kitplanes (and i believe tragically burned recently: maybe it would have been good to have some paid help looking over the fuel connections?) and was an award winner (09 copperstate flyin) and probably would have done well at oshkosh, if it wasn't tragically burned.

whats the point? Mr Johnson took 8 years and 6500 hours, along with his build partner. they are both first time builders, not repeat offenders...

 

[flion]

And now my own thoughts:

Built with help? Is any RV built without? I think it's mostly a matter of degree. Sure, there are a few folk out there who are multi-talented and do it all but even they had some help. Some folk paint their own aircraft but I'd wager that most get them painted. Panels are built by some and farmed out by others. How many RVs have home-made interiors vs. those done elsewhere? But even if you have nothing commercially produced, how did you manage to do all the riveting yourself. Nope, I'm betting everyone gets some help. And what about the split between slow-build vs. quick-build ... should we say that the quick-builders didn't really build their aircraft? If so, why? Does that mean I didn't build my -6A because I certainly didn't do any welding on it or blow my own canopy or even form my own ribs and bulkheads.

There is clearly a difference between the RV-3 builder who worked from plans and the guys who use a TWTT program, but where do you draw the line? And, before you answer, let me give some anecdotal stuff from my own projects.

First is from my RV-6A. I built my engine. True, it was under the supervision of Superior in one of their build classes but I turned the wrenches and learned a huge deal more than I would have by buying one of the pre-built engines through Vans. That doesn't put me on the same level as the guy who buys a used engine and rebuilds it himself and is not the point I am trying to make. But consider a 'builder assist' program that operates like the Superior engine build school (and I'm not saying that any exist or don't; I have no experience with them). Such a program would be a good thing because the builder would gain skill and experience while his work was overseen by experienced builders. The question would be how to ensure the type of assistance provided.

Secondly, I offer my current project for your consideration. I'm the builder, at least of the airframe. I've had a few helpers for bucking rivets but I've largely worked alone. On the other hand, I'm installing a lot of aftermarket stuff that I didn't personally develop. Back to the plus side, I designed and constructed my own battery box to accommodate a 24V battery (though I had to get someone to custom make some aluminum channel, and I took it to a powder coater because I can't do my own). Aerotronics is building my panel and constructing my harnesses though I am designing the runs, positioning the peripheral equipment, and will have to complete the harness connectors after installing the harnesses. I also made my own custom housing for the Gretz pitot heat board in the wing. Scheme Designers helped me come up with a paint scheme based around a nose art designed by Victory Girl for me, and I will certainly have the aircraft painted professionally. And, while I am designing the interior amenities (O2 port, A/C vents, and headset jack locations, for instance), the interior upholstery and headliner will most likely be done at a shop. So, am I the builder or not?

Before you answer that, let me talk about some of the work I'm farming out. Aerotronics and I have been shooting emails back and forth for two years planning my installations and we're not done yet. They are the one's physically wiring my panel together and building my harnesses, but I'm the one deciding where the equipment goes and installing it in the airplane. I get to do all the planning, drill all the holes in the airframe, install conduit, grommets, and bushings, and locate and install mounts for magnetometers, AHRS, antennae, and so forth. It's not like I took the aircraft to Billings and said, "install an Avionics System in my plane".

Similarly with the paint scheme. Jerri Bergen at Victory Girl did a wonderful job of coming up with ideas for my nose art but it was based on things I told him. Then Scheme Designers ran with it but it was my feedback and thoughts that steered them. My point is that even where I am having work done, I am still heavily involved in the design phase, if not more. I'm not just throwing it over the fence and expecting a finished product back. That doesn't mean I'm not in awe of those people who can do those things I'm farming out; I depend on them to help me finish my aircraft to my vision. Neither do I denigrate those who, for various reasons, do less on their projects than I do. My whole point in the previous discussion is that there are shades of gray to the whole matter.

Ok, so since I've opened the discussion and so far not given any concrete values of my own, here's my value judgment on work that gets farmed out: was it just money spent or did the person spend time and involvement as well? If someone pays to have their plane built and that's their sole involvement, then they could have just as well purchased a spam can (albeit more expensively). But if they were active in some way in the work performed, even if only as a 'project manager', then their time and effort went into it and it is their work - they were part of the team. That I can respect.

 

[RV7Ron]

I dont want to speak for Bob, but he may have been referring to people that are in no way involved in the build...ie, they are not 'builders'...they purchase the plane after its built and then proceed to win awards with it. I suppose thats their right as the new owner, but surely it isnt the same as someone who, even with help, built the plane themselves. Big, big difference.

 

[jjconstant]

Word substitution

I find that changing the emotionally charged word can help distill the discussion. So, how would we feel if the discussion was "I built my house" or "I did the remodel of my kitchen"?

I think most people are comfortable with shades of gray and degrees of involvement in the very basics. I think that the more people did by themselves the more impressed folks are. I built a quickbuild 7A, had Stein do my panel, got my interior from Abbey at flightline, will have a professional do the paint, and got HUGE amounts of help from lots of people, both in person and here online. But I still feel like I built it, with help.

That said, I don't consider myself in the same league as the 4 or 3 builder, the old fiberglass "kits", the plans builders, the scratch builders or the designer/builders. Then again, they didn't mine the bauxite, make and spin the glass or chop down the trees. It's all a matter of degree.

The FAA provides some guidance as to where the line is drawn for them. EAA already has provided some distinctions with the different categories of build granularity. Maybe another category for built with x degree of professional assistance?

Jeremy Constant

Rv7a 120hrs

 

[bsacks05]

I built my RV9 starting in 2001 and completed in 2006. It was a slow...I mean...standard build kit. I did everything except the final paint job. But that was after trying to paint it myself and doing a less-than-acceptable job. Of course I would seek out advice along the way and had some help bucking hard to get at rivets. But it was still a kit like the RC models I used to build.

Anyway, I am not a scratch build purist just very cheap and forever low on disposable cash. I learned from my RC days that I can order plans for just about any airplane and cut the wood myself. If I was really careful and patient I could build a nice airplane just from plans.

So, needing another airplane project and a challenge, I ordered plans for a Hatz CB-1 biplane. Using the 20+ pages of drawings I have completed the wings and am well into the fuselage. I have the building bug BIG TIME because I have to build, and more importantly, want to build to get the airplane I desire. I know... Hatz biplanes are selling in the 25K - 30K range but I feel challenged to produce the best plane I can - on my own.