Noah

Noah

Well Known Member
Is anybody aware of any reliable flight test data comparing these two props? Quick Comparison...

Whirlwind:
List Price: $7,875
Group Buy cost for 60 days from today:
1-10 units purchased--- $7,500.00
11-20 units --- $7,400.00
21-30 units --- $7,300.00
31+ units --- $7,200.00
TBO: Can't find on Whirlwind website or VAF
Diameter: 72" (183cm)
Weight: 38 lbs with spinner

Hartzell:
Vans Price = $6649.00
TBO: 6 years or 2,400 flight hours, whichever comes first.
Diameter: 72 or 74 in.
Weight: 51.8 Lbs without spinner

Related discussions / comparisons:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=33853
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=18681
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9791/prop200415me.jpg
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Prop.htm#Test results
 
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Noah

As soon as Scott Hersha's plane comes out of the paint shop we plan to do some extensive side by side comparisons this spring. We have nearly identical planes/engines, he has the Whirlwind and I have that Hartzell.
Regards
 
650 hours TBO

I got this from Greg Anderson at Whirlwind in late December:

"The teardown inspection period for the 200RV is 650 hours or 5 years,whichever comes first.This can be done at the factory here in Ohio for $500.Any reputable propeller service center can do this inspection but we find that it is typically the most economical here."
 
Can any A/P do the inspection? Does it require a prop shop? Is a teardown involved? Just curious.

- Ron
 
Inspections

rlo1 said:
Can any A/P do the inspection? Does it require a prop shop? Is a teardown involved? Just curious.

- Ron
Click to expand...

I didn't think to ask this. My impression was that they do take the propeller apart for this inspection, but I'm not sure. Whirlwind was very responsive in answering questions, so you might email them and ask.
 
"My new Whirl Wind prop appears to have increased my speed even more than I first thought. In my first race ( Sport Air Race League at Taylor, TX) Nov 2006 my speed was 203 mph and in my second race on the same coarse May 2007 was 214 mph. I don't think that all of the gain was from the prop but I'm sure most of it was. Max speed in level flight during the last race 226 MPH TAS."

That is a quote from Robbie Attaway's web site. He had replaced a Hartzell with the WW 200 RV

http://www.attawayair.com/
 
OK, $500 to overhaul the 200RV every 5 years. Anybody know what the cost to overhaul the Hartzell every 6 years is? In my case, I will probably not exceed the 650 hrs every 5 years, so I will be banging up against the calendar time limit for either prop I decide on.
 
jthocker said:
As soon as Scott Hersha's plane comes out of the paint shop we plan to do some extensive side by side comparisons this spring. We have nearly identical planes/engines, he has the Whirlwind and I have that Hartzell.
Click to expand...
For extra points, swap props after a few hours, so you can test both props with the same engine, airframe, ASI, static system errors, etc. Also pay close attention to the gap between the spinner and the cowling, as it is quite likely that larger gaps create more drag. Thus for a good comparison, the gap would be the same on the two aircraft.
 
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Kevin
Thats exactly what I had in mind.
Do some side by side tests and then go back and swap props and test again.
The big question would be whether to bother safety wiring for 1 flight.
As it stands now before paint on our planes, I was a knot or two faster than Scott. Then he did his upper and lower gear leg intersection fairings.
On the way to deliver Scott's plane to the paint shop it looked like he might be a knot or two faster. These were very brief,side by side, low altitude, full throttle, 2500 rpm, full rich, speed runs. We compared our Dynon IAS,TAS, and GS.
More to come!
 
Test has been done....

...by Larry Vetterman (before he did his cowl mod thingy). He emailed me that he has all the data on the two props and will write something up next week (or so).

b,
dr
 
Hartzell 7496 is the most efficient

Hartzell 7496 is the most efficient of the blades available from Hartzell based on charts provided to me by Hartzell engineering but they may not be available anymore. This was the original configuration blended airfoil for the 360s in RVs. The "97" is supposed to be thicker and drops off more rapidly after the peak than the "96" but both are far superior to the old Hartzell 7666 blades. I intend to search for some new "96" blades when I replace my 72" 7666 blades. Since you are looking for a direct compare with the "97" blades this information probably doesn't mean much but my response is triggered by the comments on Robbie Attaway's change to his very fast RV-6. For that compare to have value you have to know which Hartzell blades he started with.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob Axsom said:
Hartzell 7496 is the most efficient of the blades available from Hartzell based on charts provided to me by Hartzell engineering but they may not be available anymore. This was the original configuration blended airfoil for the 360s in RVs. The "97" is supposed to be thicker and drops off more rapidly after the peak than the "96" but both are far superior to the old Hartzell 7666 blades. I intend to search for some new "96" blades when I replace my 72" 7666 blades. Since you are looking for a direct compare with the "97" blades this information probably doesn't mean much but my response is triggered by the comments on Robbie Attaway's change to his very fast RV-6. For that compare to have value you have to know which Hartzell blades he started with.

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

Bob, care to post these charts? When you say "they may not be available anymore" - do you mean the charts or the blades?

Are you saying that you believe the 7496s are more efficient than the 7497s? Or was this statement made prior to the advent of the 7497s?
 
I wish I could

I wish I could but the the conditions under which they were provided to me prohibit sharing them.

Bob Axsom
 
This will be a terrific real-world comparison.

If I could make any suggestion, it would be this (presumes both aircraft have fuel flow readouts):

On the comparison runs, run several RPM/MP/FF combos to insure that speed for prop a/b is measured at consistent power. Plan these out before the runs and use a checklist (boring, but more scientific!).

Looking forward to the results!
 
MT

The 2 blade MT ($ 7.700,- at Van's) has a TBO of 1.000 hrs or 6 years, but the overhaul costs EUR 1.850,- (approx. $ 2.400,-) and takes 4 weeks plus shipping time. Also there is an RPM limitation between 2.050 and 2.300 RPM. That is why I am now thinking of getting the Whirlwind. Whirlwind 200RV is 3 lb heaver than the MT though.

Regards, Tonny.
 
on an RV9A with IO-320?

According to the whirlwind website, the 200RV is for O360's and up. I'd be interested if it is appropriate to the 9A.
 
mt prop govenor?

Also, can you definately not use the Van's supplied MT govenor with the whirlwind props? I'm thinking I like th 151 series for my 9A.
 
200RV is good for O-320 and O-360

Greg,

I spoke to Greg at Whirwind, the 200RV is for the O-320 and O-360. No restructions on either engine, including FI and El. Ign. It works with the Van's MT governor.

The TBO is actually 650 hrs. or 5 years and can be done by a Mc. Cauley propeller shop (if they want to work on an experimental propeller ofcourse), because its hub is similar/the same.

The 3 bladed 151, has a TBO of 350 hrs or 5 years. It is a few knots slower but performs a bit better in climb (according to Whirwind!) This one needs the pressure setting to be much higher than the standard MT governor, but maybe the governor can handle it and just needs to be set at the higher pressure. Give Whirwind a call, they maybe able to advise on this.

I am still waiting for the shipping quote, that I requested through the American Propeller website. Did others get a quick response, or is it better to call them?

Regards, Tonny
 
For those who have mounted a heavy counterweighted angle valve engine like the A1B6 that I'm hanging along with a heavy Hartzell prop on a 7A, what did you have to do to keep the CG in range? Move the battery? If so, how far? Other considerations?
 
Whirlwind

The 3 bladed 151, has a TBO of 350 hrs or 5 years. It is a few knots slower but performs a bit better in climb (according to Whirwind!) This one needs the pressure setting to be much higher than the standard MT governor, but maybe the governor can handle it and just needs to be set at the higher pressure. Give Whirwind a call, they maybe able to advise on this
Click to expand...

Don't know how to pick parts from previous posts to reference, but this is the best I could do.... the previous quote is from Tony. I did a pretty valid comparison between a 150 series Whirlwind and their 200RV. I originally had the Whirlwind 150 on my RV-6 and had some trouble with the hub spitting grease (which they've now fixed). Greg gave me a good deal on trading in my 150 for a 200RV. I flew to Austinburg in the morning, Greg and I made the prop swap and I flew home the same day. Here's what was immediately apparent: initial acceleration and initial climb rate was noticeably better with the 150. Once the airspeed got above 100 KIAS the climb difference narrowed. At 8500 feet using the same power setting (wide open throttle, 2400 RPM) the true airspeed was 8 knots faster with the 200RV v.s. the 150. They don't sell the 150 anymore, having replace the wide 150 blades with the narrower higher aspect ration 151 blades. You will see similar, but less dramatic differences with the 151 v.s. the 200RV. Cruise speed will be about 4-5 knots faster with the 200RV and acceleration and INITIAL climb less(although I still get airborne solo on a cold day in less than 500 feet and cruise climb - 120 KIAS- at 1500 - 1800 fpm). I was happy enough with Whirlwind and Greg Anderson to buy a 200RV for my new RV-8. The 200RV has a large McCauley-clone hub and any governor should work, although the jhistrol they sell is a very good one at a good price and works well with the 151 which requires high pressure (about 425 psi).

Scott
 
Serviceability

Some have argued against the Whirlwind because of the limited locations available to service the prop as compared to the Hartzell. Can anybody comment on exactly how many shops there are which can service these and where they are located? Getting stuck somewhere for a week because I can't get my prop fixed doesn't sound like fun.

Having said that, the 200RV hub is a McCauley (not sure if its stock or mods are made), and I assume that the prop blade roots are machined to be identical to McCauley roots. With this information, can one assume that most prop shops would at least be familiar enough with the prop (hub and blade root) that they could service at least a good portion of potential problems which could arise?

The "experimental" nature of the prop is another matter, and "3rd party" prop shops concerns about liability (or not having the prop manuals) might prevent them from working on them.

Can anybody shed any light on this angle of the comparison?
 
Sensenich

Noah said:
Can anybody comment on exactly how many shops there are which can service these and where they are located?
Click to expand...

Noah,

I had a 200C and now a 200RV on my RV-8. I had Sensenich Propeller in Pennsylvania perform a service bulletin change (before the sale of Whirlwind to Titan in Ohio). They were more than happy to work on the propeller.

I also shipped my prop back to Greg in Ohio to exchange the C blades for the RV blades. Their turn around time was exceptionally fast. I simply shipped the prop by UPS. No issues at all.
 
The 5 year TBO begins with first engine start, I assume. No?



Pilottonny said:
Greg,

I spoke to Greg at Whirwind, the 200RV is for the O-320 and O-360. No restructions on either engine, including FI and El. Ign. It works with the Van's MT governor.

The TBO is actually 650 hrs. or 5 years and can be done by a Mc. Cauley propeller shop (if they want to work on an experimental propeller ofcourse), because its hub is similar/the same.

...
Click to expand...
 
Group buy: 13 orders are in!

Spoke to Kevin, from American Propeller, today. There are 13 orders at this moment and I am probably going for it as well (awaiting shipping quote). So the price is at $ 7.400,- already.

Gees...... forgot to ask about the start of the TBO-time. Well.... will have to do that next time.

Regards, Tonny.
 
DeltaRomeo said:
...by Larry Vetterman (before he did his cowl mod thingy). He emailed me that he has all the data on the two props and will write something up next week (or so).
Click to expand...
If I read Larry's post correctly, he tested the Hartzell with the 7496 blades, not the 7497.
 
How important is propeller weight?

In deciding on a prop, how important is weight as a factor? A Hartzell is clearly a heavy choice compared to a Whirlwind. At every opportunity, Van suggests light is better. Effort is made to reduce airframe weight at every opportunity - a few grams here and there, lightening hole in the battery box, corners shaved off brake pedal angles, lightweight seats......
Why not the same concern about 20 lbs or so of weight in the prop? Why isn't that a huge deal, or is it? Some posters refer to different handling characteristics, but never having flown as RV, light or heavy, is that just an observation, or a criticism of the flying qualities of a heavy prop RV? I realize this is perhaps a subjective thing, but thoughts of those that have experienced both would be valuable.
I notice as well that Van's is now (wihout any fanfare) offering a Hartzell composite prop for the O-360. Anyone have any thoughts about that prop? I assume that it is lighter in weight (definitely heavier in the wallet) than the Hartzell aluminum prop.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A in progress
 
C-GRVT said:
In deciding on a prop, how important is weight as a factor? A Hartzell is clearly a heavy choice compared to a Whirlwind. At every opportunity, Van suggests light is better. Effort is made to reduce airframe weight at every opportunity - a few grams here and there, lightening hole in the battery box, corners shaved off brake pedal angles, lightweight seats......
Why not the same concern about 20 lbs or so of weight in the prop? Why isn't that a huge deal, or is it? Some posters refer to different handling characteristics, but never having flown as RV, light or heavy, is that just an observation, or a criticism of the flying qualities of a heavy prop RV? I realize this is perhaps a subjective thing, but thoughts of those that have experienced both would be valuable.
I notice as well that Van's is now (wihout any fanfare) offering a Hartzell composite prop for the O-360. Anyone have any thoughts about that prop? I assume that it is lighter in weight (definitely heavier in the wallet) than the Hartzell aluminum prop.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A in progress
Click to expand...

I've flown a lighter weight RV6A that had an 0320 & a Sensitch (spelling?) fixed pitch prop. Mine has the 0360 & Hartzell constant speed. You'd really have to think hard to observe any real differences in handling while in flight.
The big difference, is that mine goes like a bat out of h*** on takeoff & climb, and easily slows down for landing. I'll take the C/S anytime, and the original owner of the F/P plane...............always wanted a C/S too. His engine just wouldn't allow for it, as it didn't have the hollow crank.

Thinking "light" is one thing. But my plane performs more like a mini-fighter, than a gentle Cub. I like it! :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A

P.S. --- Landing speeds in the 6A are about 10 mph over the longer winged 9 models.
 
Best of both worlds

There you go - WW 200RV - lighter weight, constant speed, and doesn't give anything on the top end. I've already sent in my deposit on the group buy. :)
 
Yes...but, here's the deal.

Most TW RV's have a tendency towards being tail heavy - especially with a 320/360 and a FP prop. So, C/S hartzell will put most of the TD's right in the CG sweet spot, and the WW would leave them well aft.

It's the opposite story with the Nosedraggers - where the WW would be a good thing.

Not debating anything, just saying that losing a lot of weight on the nose of most TD's isn't necessarily what you want...within reason.

Cheers,
Stein
 
IMHO, propeller weight matters more with the tandem RV's than with the side by side models. This is simply a function of how the airplane was designed in the first place.

Consider the tandem models must balance even with a passenger in the back. That means the RV8 has to be pretty far forward in the CG envelope when the airplane is solo. In fact, the RV8 balances near the forward CG limit when solo and equipped with a CS prop. When you add the back seat passenger, and some baggage, the airplane tends to run near its aft limit. From a design standpoint, the side by side models balance more easily simply because they don't have the constraint of trying to balance with a back seat pax and a baggage area thats 46 inches behind the pilot.

In the real world, the RV8's tend to run a bit too nose heavy. As an example, an RV8 with an IO360 angle valve engine, a Hartzell CS prop, the battery up front (per plans), full fuel and solo will balance at about 27.5" aft of datum. And the forward limit is 27" aft of datum, so in this case we're only 1/2" from the forward limit. Put a 180# passenger in this same airplane, and 50# of baggage in the back and the CG moves to 32.9" which is only 1.9" from the aft limit at 34.8". Now you can see why the tandem RV's must run nose heavy when solo.

Take a look at what the builders here are doing to alleviate this. We're putting our batteries in the back (many of us are anyway). Although the airplane will fly OK with a heavy nose, its much nicer when the CG isn't at the forward edge of the envelope.

My opinion on flying qualities: I like a well balanced airplane. I also like to "boom and zoom", but those two desires tend to fight against each other. Getting a well balanced airplane means keeping the nose light (I'm building an 8); "boom and zoom" calls for a CS prop. (I also like the efficiency of the CS propeller in cruise) And finally, for what ever reason, more folks tend to build the 8 as a tail dragger and the 7 as a nose dragger. And as Stein pointed out, that nose gear does weigh more than the tail wheel it replaces.

With those things in mind, IMHO you get the best of overall package with a light weight CS prop and as much horsepower as you can stuff under the hood.

Edit: I'm putting in my deposit on the WW group buy today.
 
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SteinAir said:
Yes...but, here's the deal.

Most TW RV's have a tendency towards being tail heavy - especially with a 320/360 and a FP prop.
Click to expand...

Most TW side-by-side RV's might have that tendency, but the 8's, not so much. Probably should have noted that distinction in my prior post. Having a modified parallel valve motor, I'm locked in to the composite prop in any case, and with the group buy in progress, I do have an ulterior motive. :rolleyes:
 
CS propeller in cruise (Vans comments)

After reading through this thread, there is a major point that I don't think has been pointed out: The CS propeller has an advantage in cruise flight that cannot be had with a FP prop.

The explanation is for this comes directly from the RV8 builders manual, page 11-8 (thank God for OCR software):

" Cruise: This is the flight condition at which we feel the CS prop offers the greatest advantage to an RV. Most Rvs will spend the majority of their flight time in cruise, so any benefit gained will be of greater value. Though the FP prop is operating at its best in the cruise condition, it is still a compromise. But, there are a wide variety of conditions which occur under the general heading of "Cruise"; anything from full throttle & RPM (at altitude), to just enough power to maintain minimum power flight. "Rated Cruise Speed" for production aircraft is quoted for conditions under which the maximum permissible continuous speed can be achieved. This combination produces about 75% of maximum rated power. Under this condition, the CS prop will offer little advantage over the FP prop. other than what little it may gain from better blade efficiency.

The CS prop offers its main cruise advantage under reduced power cruise conditions. Engines operate at peak efficiency when the throttle is full open. This is because the air flow control vane in the carb or injector throttle body is completely open and offering the least resistance to airflow. This reduces what is known as "pumping losses" within the engine. There are two primary means (from the pilots vantage point) of reducing power output of an engine. One is to reduce the RPM of the engine and the other is to reduce the manifold pressure. With a fixed pitch prop, the only means of reducing RPM is to retard the throttle setting. In so doing, the control vane (butterfly) in the carb partially closes, manifold pressure is reduced, and engine efficiency drops. With a variable pitch (CS) prop, the RPM can be controlled through adjusting the blade angle, and thus the propeller load on the engine. The throttle can be left full open (in its most efficient position) and the power output can be reduced by lowering the RPM. This reduced RPM, full throttle condition achieves both reduced engine friction because of the lower RPM,
and minimum pumping losses. Fuel efficiency will be improved, but speeds will drop because less than full cruise power is being used. Above we mentioned 8,000 ft. as the optimum cruise altitude. This is because it s the lowest altitude at which an engine will develop no more than 75% power at rated RPM. With a variable pitch prop, selecting low ?RPM can cause the engine power output to be 75% or less at altitudes of less than 8,000', making it possible to utilize the efficiency of a continuous full throttle opening
at altitudes well below 8,000'. Just leave the throttle wide open and pull the RPM back to a number which, according to the Lycoming manual, produces 75% power or less. "

If you FP flyers get steamed from reading this, you can kindly direct your flaming arrows to Vans Aircraft.... ;)
 
Paid deposit on group buy today! Let us know if you did also!

Today I sent in my order for the 200RV prop group buy. Strange, but now I am told that I am #12 paying his deposit, as for last week there were already 13 sold?? :confused:

I suggest everybody who has already made a deposit, or is going to, let us know on this thread, to motivate others and allow us to keep track.

BTW I was also told that there is another 6 "on the fence", so only those and two more necessary to get to 20+ and we are at $ 7.300,-

Regards,

Tonny.
 
One more 200RV sold

I spoke with Kevin @ American Propeller today and placed my order for a Whirlwind 200RV. He told me a few things about the group buy that I didn't recall reading in any of the threads so I thought I'd share them.

1. Because the warranty starts when it is shipped, they can hold off shipping it until as late as December but the balance has to be paid in full by April 6th when the group buy closes.

2. If you buy the 200RV you can also get the PCU5000 governor for $1150, a $200 discount.
 
Group Buy: More info

I put the money down a few days ago for the GB.

In the call with Bob, he felt pretty sure that we'd reach the 30+ goal needed to reach the minimum price floor. He didn't share how many they had in the buy at that time.

Also having relevance, Bob said they'd put deliveries into three groups:

1) Need it now. Plane will be ready to fly, minus prop.
2) Need it soon. Plane will be ready to fly in a few months.
3) Can wait. Participating in GB to get the price discount.

And, finally I asked about custom paint. Bob told me that Whirlwind ships the props to American Propeller in an unfinished state. American does all the finishing. So they can do a custom paint job if you want. I didn't ask about details of just exactly how they'd do the paint job - but - they can do it. Bob didn't make any mention of extra cost but that doesn't mean its free.

By the way. This group buy thing is REALLY great. I'm grateful to Doug Reeves for putting it together. I will save $695.00 as a result. This would never have happened without VAF and American Propeller working together for our benefit. As a thank-you to Doug, I am going to return 10% of my savings to VAF. Call it the VAF Tithe ;)

Thanks Doug!
 
Custom Paint Pricing

The Whirlwind web site lists "Custom Paint Color" for $200. American is noted for their very fancy paint jobs that would undoubtedly cost more, but for a simple color change, that should be indicative. Me, I'm getting mine black with yellow tips for the WWII Mustang look. :)
 
Props

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but don't know how to start new one. Does anyone have comparo data on Hartzell 2-blade CS (old design, not BA) and a new MT 3-blade? Would appreciate any input as we're on point of buying one of these. Thanks in advance. Bill
 
Prop Stuff

I've already got a WW200RV on my current plane. I'm in for the group buy for my new project. Kevin told me the group buy would be very flexible for shipping based on need. After the end date, everyone would be contacted and a priority list made. Further, I was told you didn't have to pay until your prop was ready. Regarding the warranty, he said nobody would be left hanging if they didn't fly as soon as they thought. From Greg, he said the inspection will probably go to 1000 hours before too long. It is an inspection, not an overhaul. Shipping is reasonable and the turnaround time is excellent.

Folks, these are good people. If you want a fabulous prop at a great price, get on board. They are going to work with you on your delivery time and needs.



JakeLewis22 said:
I spoke with Kevin @ American Propeller today and placed my order for a Whirlwind 200RV. He told me a few things about the group buy that I didn't recall reading in any of the threads so I thought I'd share them.

1. Because the warranty starts when it is shipped, they can hold off shipping it until as late as December but the balance has to be paid in full by April 6th when the group buy closes.

2. If you buy the 200RV you can also get the PCU5000 governor for $1150, a $200 discount.
Click to expand...
 
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Thanks Peter. Good info but not applicable for us as the prop is for a certified Pitts S-2A. Only two are STC'ed, the older Hartzell 2-blade (no BA) and a 3-blade MT. Thanks for sending link on. Bill
 
Keeping track

For those keeping track, my deposit went in a couple of weeks ago.
Good to see so much response. With the new Hartzell prices our group buy discount really narrows the gap.
 
Custom Painted Whirlwing RV200

Bill Wightman said:
I put the money down a few days ago for the GB.

In the call with Bob, he felt pretty sure that we'd reach the 30+ goal needed to reach the minimum price floor. He didn't share how many they had in the buy at that time.

Also having relevance, Bob said they'd put deliveries into three groups:

1) Need it now. Plane will be ready to fly, minus prop.
2) Need it soon. Plane will be ready to fly in a few months.
3) Can wait. Participating in GB to get the price discount.

And, finally I asked about custom paint. Bob told me that Whirlwind ships the props to American Propeller in an unfinished state. American does all the finishing. So they can do a custom paint job if you want. I didn't ask about details of just exactly how they'd do the paint job - but - they can do it. Bob didn't make any mention of extra cost but that doesn't mean its free.

By the way. This group buy thing is REALLY great. I'm grateful to Doug Reeves for putting it together. I will save $695.00 as a result. This would never have happened without VAF and American Propeller working together for our benefit. As a thank-you to Doug, I am going to return 10% of my savings to VAF. Call it the VAF Tithe ;)

Thanks Doug!
Click to expand...

Here is the custom paint American Propeller did on my 200RV. They did a great job!

Prop2.jpg
 
Custom Painted Prop

Bill Wightman said:
Bryon, that's GREAT! Geez, did you hire an artist for that? Very nice...
Click to expand...

My girlfriend is the artists! She also designed my paint scheme that will match the prop. Looking forward to first flight within the next month and then hopefully paint a month or two later. Revealing to come...
 
Latest info on group buy?

Quite a while since we have heard about this group buy. Anybody have any news?

Regards, Tonny.
 
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