petersb

Well Known Member
I like the idea of the MGL iefis although there is no info on their website yet. My eyes start to glaze over when reading their websites, too many buz words etc. I am building an RV7a and will be flying VFR day/night and VFR over the top. The system should provide engine monitoring plus 2 axis autopilot with built in GPS. I wonder if there is a difference in the operation of the autopilot functions etc between the various brands

Has anyone made the comparisons. My original thought was Skyview

Thanks for the input
 
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What about the G3X and gx pilot from tru trak? That's what I'm putting in my 7. The gx pilot is designed to work specifically with the g3x.
 
I wonder if there is a difference in the operation of the autopilot functions etc between the various brands

Main factor is vendor philosophy around EFIS/AP separation.

With some, the AP is an integral part of the EFIS. With others, the AP is separate from, but connected to, the EFIS.

Choose your preferred philosophy and that dictates your own EFIS/AP vendor shortlist.
 
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I would surges that you log into each manufactures forum and see what comments the customers may have. Also note how the tech support handles any problems.
Try and get some time on each system, before you put your money down, as you may already know what is current today, will be old news next week.
 
Amen, brother...

Main factor is vendor philosophy around EFIS/AP separation.

With some, the AP is an integral part of the EFIS. With others, the AP is separate from, but connected to, the EFIS.

Choose your preferred philosophy and that dictates your own EFIS/AP vendor shortlist.

Having started off my RV9A with BMA and integrated AP, I can tell you that I don't want to be there again.

I switch to AFS and their version of the TruTrak AP. I works very well as an integrated AP with their EFIS, but I could put a bullet through the EFIS and the AP would still fly the plane just fine.

Both AFS and TT are top notch people to work with.

Kent
 
Excellent question!

My own impression is that we have multiple, high quality, feature-laden vendors to choose from. Which means we need to be clear about which choices the vendors make in their designs will parallel the choices we prefer to make as pilots. I'm hoping this thread will grow indefinitely...as the products are certainly evolving steadily.

Jack
 
If you stick with VFR then any of the above systems will work just fine. If you go IFR then things change. Dynon doesn't integrate as well and forces you to use their autopilot. GRT seems to be the front of the pack as far as features, AFS units are well designed and probably have the best AHRS, MGL seems to be the least complete and constantly changing. Don't forget that garmin has dropped prices on the g3x so that is an option now as well.

If it where me I would go garmin or AFS.

schu
 
Dynon Support: SkyView!
:D Haaahhhh. That was funny!!. But I agree. :) You are gonna get nowhere asking because each of us has our favorite for our own reasons. I went through same thing. MGL, AFS, Dynon... All good. All would do what you want. Go watch some you tubes of each in action. See which one seems to keep your interest.
 
Dynon doesn't integrate as well and forces you to use their autopilot.

You are not "forced" to use our autopilot. You can use a TruTrak or a Trio in a plane with a Dynon system. The software release that is coming out this month even adds standard NMEA out and enough system information that a AP vendor can follow our bugs if desired. It's just that using our AP saves you a huge amount of money.

If you want redundancy, a dual screen SkyView with dual ADAHRS has no single point of failure that will cause the attitude or AP to stop working, and if you want totally independent systems, you can use a Dynon D10A as a backup EFIS and your main AP, for less than any other AP out there. We give you a lot of options, and we keep adding more.
 
Another vote for AF efis/em and AF/TT autopilot. Both products and support are excellent. I don't have any experience with the other products, but I can't imagine what they could offer that is not in the AF and TT packages.

RV-10
 
MGL seems to be the least complete and constantly changing.


Free updates keep your MGL unit up to date. And every manufacturer of EFIS or EMS systems are changing as technology changes. That is really good for us.

If you don't want changes, go purchase a certified aircraft.
 
happy with skyview

I have the skyview as primary with 2 axis ap. the ap works great except for a bit of wandering on the heading bug. I have a d6 for backup, but of course i'll lose the ap if the skyview quits.

the altitude mode works well. I fly ifr and am happy with the system.
Dynon is always working on system improvement and great to work with.
 
If you stick with VFR then any of the above systems will work just fine. If you go IFR then things change. Dynon doesn't integrate as well and forces you to use their autopilot. GRT seems to be the front of the pack as far as features, AFS units are well designed and probably have the best AHRS, MGL seems to be the least complete and constantly changing. Don't forget that garmin has dropped prices on the g3x so that is an option now as well.

If it where me I would go garmin or AFS.

schu
Based on my experince and information, I completely agree with the above quote.

However I went with GRT and been absolutely happy with the product and service. The intergration with other system (430W and Trutrak) is absolutely awesome and makes IFR a whole lot easier and safer.
 
SkyView

For my money, I'll be installing the SkyView lineup. My flying will be similar to yours. Mainly VFR with a little light IFR if required.

While their autopilot *is* more limited in it's functionality at this stage, I have faith that Dynon will make good on it's claims of more VNAV functionality, it's one I've played with at NatFly, the MGL products didn't look as professional there and the dealer not as cluey about the lineup, and AFS wasn't to be found although that wasn't a surprise given the country...:D

My two bob is have a very quick look at the main screen of each in it's normal mode and decide. I prefer the Dynon presentation. Others like AFS. Given that they'll all do what you need them to, it comes down to which one you like more.
 
I am building an RV7a and will be flying VFR day/night and VFR over the top.
FWIW, if you're still building, you are probably not ready to be asking this question. Visit websites, look around, but keep in mind that by the time you get to the point of needing to make the purchase, the technology will have gone up another notch. Where that ends up I don't know, but I certainly didn't foresee the state we're in now... It's amazing to see some of these panels.
 
Why do you say least complete? Just askin' not pickin'.

When I was looking at MGL, I started looking for how many people where actually using it with a 430W flying IFR and using the autopilot to fly an approach and found that there wasn't anyone doing it and that it was still being tested as the arinc429 code was brand new. This may have changed now, however the AFS and GRT units had been doing this for years, so I think it's safe to assume their IFR platform is more complete.
 
um? Maybe Rainier can chime in on this one... Rainer arinc 429?...how about on the new iEfis too?.
 
You are not "forced" to use our autopilot. You can use a TruTrak or a Trio in a plane with a Dynon system. The software release that is coming out this month even adds standard NMEA out and enough system information that a AP vendor can follow our bugs if desired. It's just that using our AP saves you a huge amount of money.

If you want redundancy, a dual screen SkyView with dual ADAHRS has no single point of failure that will cause the attitude or AP to stop working, and if you want totally independent systems, you can use a Dynon D10A as a backup EFIS and your main AP, for less than any other AP out there. We give you a lot of options, and we keep adding more.

It is my understanding that the SV-ARInC-429 module won't output labels that can drive a GPS steering autopilot. This means that you can't fly an approach from a 430W on an external autopilot without making the 430W the direct source for the autopilot and cutting the skyview out of the system.

Sure, adding NMEA sentences to skyview will allow skyview's heading bug to command an external autopilot, but my understanding is that it won't do anything for vertical navigation, and if your flying a track, it will overshoot each leg because the NMEA heading suddenly changes the heading to the new leg when the old leg is complete.

At the end of the day, the skyview simply won't integrate with an external autopilot and a 430W and work like the AFS or GRT will.

If you want the dynon autopilot then the functionality is the same, but if you don't, then I would skip the dynon for IFR work.

Before I get flamed, please understand that I'm posting comments from research I did several months ago, that I believe is still valid today. The intent is to help out the original poster with the difficult decision of which panel to buy, not get people upset.

Also, keep in mind that I'm building a bearhawk, not an RV (I live in Alaska for pete's sake) and I have reason to believe that the TT would fly the airplane much better because their auto pilot is much more mature.

At the end of the day, my arguments are based on my PERCEIVED maturity of each system. Take them with a grain of salt:

1. Skyview simply isn't mature from the perspective of integration since it doesn't yet output gps steering on ARINC-429.

2. The Skyview autopilot hasn't flow as many types as the TT autopilot.

3. The Skyview and MGL flying a complete IFR approach from a 430W is relatively new.

4. The Skyview and MGL shipped initially with significant IFR features missing then they added them later. The AFS, GRT, and Garmin boxes did 430W and AP integration for IFR work from day one.

These are the reasons I would stick to AFS, GRT, and Garmin for IFR. My basis for preferring the AFS and Garmin over the GRT is because I think the AHRS on these boxes is better, and because I don't like how the GRT uses a standard x86 processor. I think that a low power arm/mips based processor is much better suited for this type of embedded application.

Disclaimer, I own an AFS box, and I really like how it only draws a single amp all up and running (because it has an LED backlit display which is NICE) and I like that it runs nice and cool. The unit is only 2-3*F above ambient and doesn't even need it's fan to run.

schu
 
The AFS, GRT, and Garmin boxes did 430W and AP integration for IFR work from day one.

I'm not sure if that is true. Can someone chime in on this? (Garmin I wouldn't be surprised, but the AFS and GRT I would be kinda surprised if they did from day one)

Chris.
 
I'm not sure if that is true. Can someone chime in on this? (Garmin I wouldn't be surprised, but the AFS and GRT I would be kinda surprised if they did from day one)

Chris.

Chris,

I'm talking about the current products. I have one of the first AFS 4500's and it did maps/external autopilot/430W integration from the day it was released. These things have been improved and bugs have been fixed as well as new features like HITS, but it was a complete IFR platform from day one.

I'm not as certain about the GRT, but I suspect that the GRT Horzion also had 430W integration early on.

None of the details really change my point though:

I prefer a manufacturer to produce a working product then improve on it or update it to a manufacturer that produces a platform, releases it, then adds the features later on. Don't get me wrong, they all provide updates, but dynon shipped a very incomplete unit when they first released the skyview.

Anyway, I'm out, buy and fly what you like, my opinion isn't worth any more than you paid for it, I just wanted to help the original poster by posting the information and research I gathered when I was in his shoes.

oh, one last tidbit before I check out: Not all AHRS units are the same. Here is some reading:

http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/Features-Options/features-options.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSARrQSgX0

http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno=27

http://mglavionics.com/html/ahrs.html
 
From a brief post on the MGL forum a few days ago:
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Did some practice IFR approaches, precision and non-precision. Voyager is connected to a Garmin 430. Everything worked perfectly. Used the auto pilot in the approaches. Great product.
----------------------------

In a great part this is due to the tireless work done by one of MGL's great supporters Cecil Jones (who occasionally posts on VANs). Cecil has been instrumental in "reverse engineering" the Garmin ARINC label usage (No official Garmin support available). Cecil is even more involved now with the ADSB Wx and Traffic integration which we showed this year at Oshkosh.

Our systems are never really finished - there is always something left to add. That's just the way it is. Just when we think we're done, somebody comes with a new idea or "thing" that needs to be put in. But that's fine. Keeps me off the streets... :)

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics


When I was looking at MGL, I started looking for how many people where actually using it with a 430W flying IFR and using the autopilot to fly an approach and found that there wasn't anyone doing it and that it was still being tested as the arinc429 code was brand new. This may have changed now, however the AFS and GRT units had been doing this for years, so I think it's safe to assume their IFR platform is more complete.
 
Internally generated ILS approaches.

....somebody comes with a new idea or "thing" that needs to be put in. But that's fine. Keeps me off the streets... :)

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

.....LOL! streetwalker Rainier:)

Seriously, does any other vendor have GLS ability? The ability to shoot approaches to a user set waypoint?...Or to an airport without a published approach, like mine at 2J3...? I don't think so.

Best,
 
Well, obviously we have been doing GLS since the early days of Enigma - I think GRT does something similar but I'm not sure (I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I do not really know our competitors products at all).

Rainier

.....LOL! streetwalker Rainier:)

Seriously, does any other vendor have GLS ability? The ability to shoot approaches to a user set waypoint?...Or to an airport without a published approach, like mine at 2J3...? I don't think so.

Best,
 
um? Maybe Rainier can chime in on this one... Rainer arinc 429?...how about on the new iEfis too?.

We are not aware of any current issue with the G430 ARINC interface to Odyssey or Voyager.

The iEFIS has all the interfaces available as standard as with our current Odyssey and Voyager (and then some more). There is a smaller, low cost version of the iBOX in the making however that does not provide ARINC (and hence no G430) interface. This is intended either as a low cost backup to a primary iBOX (which has all the goodies) or for systems where only basic functionality is needed.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
.....LOL! streetwalker Rainier:)

Seriously, does any other vendor have GLS ability? The ability to shoot approaches to a user set waypoint?...Or to an airport without a published approach, like mine at 2J3...? I don't think so.

Best,

GRT also has these syntactic approach to many more airports that no official instrument approach is available and it will provide you the option of which runway based on current wind conditions, as well as displaying the AGL (continuously updated and current). One only need to keep in mind that these approaches are not official and no obstacle clearance has been tested on it. It is based on a 3% glideslop and it will capture 3 degree on each side of the center runway. I have only done it in a VFR condition for testing and will only use it at a last resort, nevertheless it is good to know that it is available in case of an emergency.

You can also couple the SV also to the auto pilot which will drive it both laterally and vertically. Multiple test approach brought me down to 10-15' of center runway and within the touch down zone at RIU.
 
Just to chime in here....

AFS has had the ARINC interface since day one of the AF-4500. We have a huge number of IFR customers with GNS-430/W GNS-530/W and GNS-480/CNX-80 units and our autopilot (AF-Pilot or TruTrak DigiFlight II VSGV). The EFIS gets GPS information from the GPS navigator and then sends all of the steering commands to the autopilot. This allows us to add additional data to the steering commands such as controlling the autopilot with the heading bug and altitude bug (with vertical speed control as well).

I have many hours behind our systems flying REAL IFR approaches in REAL IMC. I can setup an RNAV approach with LPV minima on the GNS-430W and the EFIS/Autopilot combo will intercept the final approach course from the en-route phase, perform a procedure turn if necessary, descend at the step-down fixes (you control with the ALT bug) and then intercept the glideslope. The aircraft will continue to descend on glideslope until it reaches the MINIMUM altitude bug (user setting). It will then level off until you either disconnect the autopilot and land OR you press SUSP on the GNS-430W to sequence for the missed approach procedure. In the later case, the aircraft will start flying the missed and all you have to do is reset the ALT bug to match the published procedure. Essentially all you need to do is manage power and the ALT bug.

Recently we released software with HITS and internal Flight Planning. It allows you to select the runway at your destination, draw a synthetic glidepath with HITS boxes, and provide Top of Descent information when a crossing restriction is programmed. For example, I can select RWY 35 at KUAO and tell it that I want to be at 1,500ft 3nm from the airport. It will then give you the required vertical speed and TOD point to start your descent. In the near future we'll be able to allow the autopilot to fly the whole descent.

We design our systems with IFR customers in mind to make their life easy and safe when in the clouds.