Brantel

Brantel

Well Known Member
Another thread has me thinking about the fact that it may be cost effective to install an older IFR gps for things like legally substituting for ADF/DME and for legal direct clearances, not so important for map but if it has one that is great.

Knowing that some of the older Garmins are dead as far as database updates and some issues with the clocks inside etc.

What are some of the best options for an older Garmin GPS to be used in this manner?
 
I really liked the KLN 94 but it's price has remained relatively high. The KLN 89 or 90 should do what you want at a reasonable price.
 
Brantel said:
Knowing that some of the older Garmins are dead as far as database updates and some issues with the clocks inside etc.
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Jeppesen still supports many of the older Garmin and Apollo units with database updates http://www.jeppesen.com/personal-solutions/aviation/garmin.jsp. Though who knows how long they will keep doing that.

If you really want to go with Garmin and not King, there are quite a few options there, depending on if you want IFR approach capability or just enroute and terminal, GPS/comm or just GPS, etc.

--Paul
 
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I want one with approach capability and would consider a GPS/Com. Not really stuck on Garmin but that is my preference.
 
Gramin Newly Overhauled Units

I think some of the best choices are Garmin NOH (Newly Overhauled) units. For example, the Garmin GNC 300XL TSO GPS/COM for $3,150 form ACS is a high resolution IFG certified unit. If you don't need the COM, then the GPS 155XL TSO is only $2,795. And, since these units are certified for IFR, you can use them for enroute, arrival, and approach navigation, provided that your installation includes the required annunciators and switches.
 
Garmin out-of-warranty repair

Also Garmin offers flat-rate repair and 'yellow tagging' of many of their units. For GNC 300XL's and GX60's and the like it's in the $500 range. See http://www8.garmin.com/support/outofwarranty.html. If you can find a broken one for cheap, this can be the way to go.

Edit: Useful to know that while that Garmin page says "RMA must be obtained through an Authorized Garmin Aviation Service Center", if you can convince them the unit is for your experimental, for example by giving them an N-number, they will deal direct with you.

--Paul
 
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The "A" models are IFR Enroute certified, and the "B" models are approach certified.
 
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N395V said:
I really liked the KLN 94 but it's price has remained relatively high. The KLN 89 or 90 should do what you want at a reasonable price.
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I second the KLN89 (KLN89B is the IFR version). Has a small monochrome moving map. I flew IFR behind one for a couple of years - perfectly adequate for enroute and approaches.

Anything King uses proprietary database info and will cost about 20% more per year to keep the database updated, compared to Garmin.

King stuff is reliable, but tends to have sky-high repair costs. With current prices, if you go with an 89 or 90, and have any problems, you'd probably be better off junking the unit and buying another one.
 
I like the GX60 (UPS/Garmin)

GPS and Com. Approach Cert.

Keep in mind that you will need to have an annunciator and current database to use IFR.

Kent
 
What all is required in the annunciators and is this required enroute or just for approaches?

And not to hijack the thread but I have an LOC/GS but no marker beacons, does this raise DH or can I only fly the LOC when marker beacons are part of the ILS approach?

I'm considering flying light IFR and due to limited -4 panel space and no desire to start completely new I am looking at what I can do with what I've got (Terra LOC/GS and apollo gx55 so no GPS approaches which I'm fine with, need to check update availability).

Thanks
 
The GX55 only has...

grantcarruthers said:
What all is required in the annunciators and is this required enroute or just for approaches?

And not to hijack the thread but I have an LOC/GS but no marker beacons, does this raise DH or can I only fly the LOC when marker beacons are part of the ILS approach?

I'm considering flying light IFR and due to limited -4 panel space and no desire to start completely new I am looking at what I can do with what I've got (Terra LOC/GS and apollo gx55 so no GPS approaches which I'm fine with, need to check update availability).

Thanks
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..two annunciators.

MSG (message)
PTK (parallel track)

The more featured GX50 and GX60 add these three

OBS/HLD (waypoint sequencing hold)
APPRCH (approach enabled)
ACTIVE (approach active)

Some user and STC documentation is still around on the Garmin obsolete products web site.
 
grantcarruthers said:
What all is required in the annunciators and is this required enroute or just for approaches?
Click to expand...

Not sure about what is required for enroute but for approaches you need:

OBS Hold Switch
Hold Indicator Light
Approach Arm Pushbutton
Arm Light
Active Light
Arrival/MSG Light

grantcarruthers said:
And not to hijack the thread but I have an LOC/GS but no marker beacons, does this raise DH or can I only fly the LOC when marker beacons are part of the ILS approach?
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Not anymore, unless for some weird reason the approach requires a MB, they do not impact the minimums anymore.

grantcarruthers said:
I'm considering flying light IFR and due to limited -4 panel space and no desire to start completely new I am looking at what I can do with what I've got (Terra LOC/GS and apollo gx55 so no GPS approaches which I'm fine with, need to check update availability).

Thanks
Click to expand...

The GX 55 is enroute only IFR so no GPS approaches with it. Database is still available thru Jeppesen from what I was told above.
 
Thanks for the info, I have ILS/Loc's at all my expected destinations so enroute GPS for "direct" etc is more than enough for me with decent precision approaches present.

Now to finish the rating, overhaul the altimeter (failed pitot/static test), and figure how hard of IFR I'll fly without an autopilot (not very, may add the autopilot). VFR yesterday I couldn't fold the sectional without 200ft and 45 degree deviations, the maps defy all sense of fair play and are literally 4 times the width of the -4. Some EFB solution or a lot of practice and preparation in VFR conditions will be required (like memorizing every intersection within 100 miles of the route!:rolleyes:).

Cheers all
 
Gary Bricker

I have a Garmin 300. This doesn't have a map like the 300xl. It need to go to Garmin for repair. I am told $550. I will take $750 with tray.
 
Correction?

Hi Brian,
I have been studying the GX60 manuals lately. I think you have an extra switch in your list. I was only able to find one switch required (The OBS Hold, combined with light). I think the Arming action is done on the face of the GX60 itself. I could be wrong of course, since I have not flown one yet.

I'll be curious what lighted switch you plan to use for the OBS/Hold Unit. I'd live to share notes since I am just over the ridge from you.

Brantel said:
Not sure about what is required for enroute but for approaches you need:

OBS Hold Switch
Hold Indicator Light
Approach Arm Pushbutton
Arm Light
Active Light
Arrival/MSG Light
Click to expand...
 
It is quite possible. Different model GPS's require different buttons and annunciator lights. The ones I gave are the most common.

Check the install manual for your GPS aways to be sure.....

As for the lights and switches... Not sure? I know I want LED's so I don't have to worry about them burning out. I would like to find a lighted PB that has separate bulb power inputs. Anyone got any ideas????

rzbill said:
Hi Brian,
I have been studying the GX60 manuals lately. I think you have an extra switch in your list. I was only able to find one switch required (The OBS Hold, combined with light). I think the Arming action is done on the face of the GX60 itself. I could be wrong of course, since I have not flown one yet.

I'll be curious what lighted switch you plan to use for the OBS/Hold Unit. I'd live to share notes since I am just over the ridge from you.
Click to expand...
 
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Scan of Newark

A flip through the Newark catalog delivered Tyco 16mm Command Series switches such as part number 16EL11. They have separate lamp circuits. The part number is just an example to help find to whole list of switches. I am not saying that is "THE" switch to use. It does not have the right switching action for instance.

************
Edit -
I am laying out my panel for real as of now (Dec '08) and found some nice matched switches and indicators from NKK in the Mouser catalog.
Series UB switches and lights. They are 0.6" square (PCB mount), have the momentary action needed for the HOLD/OBS function, separate circuit for the LED lamp, gold contacts, easy labelling bezel. etc etc.
 
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Tear the maps, Grant.......

grantcarruthers said:
.........I couldn't fold the sectional without 200ft and 45 degree deviations, the maps defy all sense of fair play and are literally 4 times the width of the -4.

Cheers all
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.....to more manageable pieces. If it's a 100 mile cross-country, then cut out just that section and save the rest. I did that in a Pitts I ferried once.

Secondly, consider at least a roll autopilot since these airplanes take a lot of concentration to hand-fly IFR.

Regards,
 
Yah I really feel that an autopilot is just about a no go requirement for IFR. The only reason I'm considering IFR without it is that it's gonna be the same trip once a week for a new work commute. A 1:10, 170ktm trip, done weekly on average. So MAYBE I'll try it 10 times in VMC IFR to get a feel for the system and memorize every intersection and frequency that I might get and then set some major minimums.

And when that doesn't work I'll knock the dust off the checkbook and get the autopilot.:D
 
Brantel said:
Not sure about what is required for enroute but for approaches you need:

OBS Hold Switch
Hold Indicator Light
Approach Arm Pushbutton
Arm Light
Active Light
Arrival/MSG Light
Click to expand...

I have the GX50 in a 182 and the 300XL in the 6A- FWIW the GX series is easier to follow for me in approach mode. It seems much more intuitive than the 300XL. You can still upload Jepp data but will need a Garmin serial card interface for the GX50/60 to upload data ($80). Then buy a full year or 1 Jepp subscription. I would go with a GPS without COM. We had the 300XL in for service and that downed the 6A since the com is integrated into the unit($700 with shipping). (Also for the GX50 install -the only button needed is the OBS hold.) So again FWIW, I would take a chance with a GX50 and SL40/SL30 combo to have the best of both worlds in GPS and seperate COM w/standby monitor channel function.
 
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Look out for this

Make sure you factor in the $450 service that will be required at some point on an older GX 55 or GX 60. I saw a GX 55 go for close to $2,000 on Ebay a while back, and it had been in service five years without any factory service. When my GX 60 was six years old, I got a battery failure message on the unit. Garmin AT had me ship the unit back to them for the required service for $450 flat fee. It is my understanding that all of these units will require this service at some point. The price may have gone up now as that was a year and a half ago.
 
GX60 is $500 now.

http://www8.garmin.com/support/outofwarranty.html

I was bidding on some of the older ones on Ebay this and last week. Some people are crazy and pay rediculous prices for some of that stuff on there. It is almost impossible to get something at a reasonable price because people that don't know any better pay way to much for some stuff.
 
Jerry, I could have saved you $440.00.

Jerry Carter said:
Make sure you factor in the $450 service that will be required at some point on an older GX 55 or GX 60. I saw a GX 55 go for close to $2,000 on Ebay a while back, and it had been in service five years without any factory service. When my GX 60 was six years old, I got a battery failure message on the unit. Garmin AT had me ship the unit back to them for the required service for $450 flat fee. It is my understanding that all of these units will require this service at some point. The price may have gone up now as that was a year and a half ago.
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You can easily replace the internal battery. No soldering, just clip it in. About $10.00.

Kent
 
Kent, you are correct

Garmin wanted 250.00 to replace the battery in a unit that cost $340.00 new. I opened it up and bought the battery for 8.50. Replaced it and good as new...

I can understand the flat rate charge for repairs but this level of cost for a battery replacement that takes a few minutes doesn't compute for me. They do offer to update the SW but in my case the SW was at the most recent release.
 
GX Battery

What Kent said. I went through the same thing with my Apollo/UPSAT/Garmin GX55. My local avionics shop told me that they could not replace the battery, that I had to return it to Garmin. I found a similar discussion here in the forums about this and took the chance and opened up the case. As stated it is a field replaceable (no soldering) battery. I had to order the battery on the net, replaced it myself and saved some coin. See http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=19673&highlight=gx55+battery

Jim
 
One more thought on replacing the battery.

It is my understanding that you can do this in your experimental, but not in a certified plane. I am sure that part of the extra money that Garmin wants is that they are taking on the liability of the unit continuing certified accurate.

I don't know how they would know if you change it, but you can never know.

Kent
 
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