TomVal

TomVal

Well Known Member
For the RV-8 drivers with IO-360?s, which fuel injection system are you using and were there any airbox installation interference problems?

Thanks,
 
Airflow Performance is well known, and respected here.

The owner is a VAF member, and often addresses fuel issues, very helpful and knowledgeable.

Fourth ad down on the left.
 
The ECI Titan EXP fuel injection system (formerly Airmotive Engineering) works very well too. It's a constant-return type, much like the Continental FI systems. It does have its pros and cons however.

Pros are that it has a constant flow return system, that keeps cool fuel circulating thru the engine-driven pump to help alleviate vapor lock conditions. Hot starts aren't a big problem, and I actually found it pretty easy to hot start even in the brutal north Texas summer heat once I acquired the right touch of boost pump duration, and mixture/throttle settings. The ECI system on my friend's RV-8 also seems to meter all 4 cylinders very equally and balanced... I only played around with LOP for a short while on my Oshkosh trip in the plane, but since it's a brand new engine, did not want to run LOP for any extended times. I briefly saw some amazingly low GPH numbers with the mixture pulled way back and it was still running glassy smooth. We'll definitely see for certain what LOP numbers we can achieve when cooler flying weather gets here.

Cons are that it requires an expensive duplex Andair fuel selector valve and extra complexity in the fuel line plumbing to route a pair of return lines, one back to each tank thru the valve so it returns to the same tank you're feeding from. It's also a royal pain to get all the fuel pressure metering and idle adjustments calibrated just right for your engine. We were lucky enough to know someone who had a good set of precision fuel pressure gauges and the experience from working on the Continental injection systems who helped us get it calibrated correctly, without that help we doubt we'd have gotten it correct ourselves.

This particular RV-8 has the ECI cold air induction system that doesn't route thru the sump, and is a horizontal, front inlet system. The Vans-supplied fiberglass intake snorkel (airbox) fit almost perfect, and required only a tiny bit of fiberglass reshaping to fix a spot it was hitting something. It connects to the FI system using an ECI-supplied snorkel adapter kit. The lower cowl is the Vans smooth-bottom "Slick" cowl, and the rectangular air filter sits horizontal in the left cowl inlet just in front of cylinder #2.

All in all, this system and installation fits and performs extremely well in an RV-8, but is significantly more expensive and difficult to install and configure than other FI systems.
 
IMG_0259_3.JPG



This is what we did.

Once we decided on the thickness using MDF, we had an aluminum spacer made locally - works a treat.
 
OTOH...

My Superior IO-360 came with a Precision RSA setup and forward facing cold air sump. So smooth cowling and absolutely zero issues so far except that when I was using 92 oct mogas (methanol free, btw), I would get what I figured was some vapor lock right after refuel. Cleared up during runup and since then have gone back to 100LL with no vapor lock issues. No return line with RSA of course...

When up above 8000' I'll go LOP and see 7.8 gph or better with all EGT's close to even. Went 769 sm to KBIL two weeks ago and burned 30.1 gals. Yes, there was a nice tailwind at 11.5... LUV these RV's
 
Tom,

This begs the questions: Which two cylinders went down, and how did it run on the remaining ones, were you able to keep a percent of power going or did you have to shut it down?

Thanks,
 
I removed my FADEC system and used Airflow Performance injection and duel Lightspeeds on my 360 (Mattituck ) engine.:)
 
In your case Tom, the AFP system would be definitely be the one to install. A fellow at my airport is building an RV-7 right now with an IO-360 equipped with the AFP system and his installation is straightforward and simple.

The complex plumbing of the ECI system I mentioned above is one that you really need to build into an RV from the start of the project since you also have to modify the fuel tanks to add the return line ports. Retrofitting an already-built RV-8 with the ECI would be a lot of work to do away from home.
 
Neal@F14 said:
In your case Tom, the AFP system would be definitely be the one to install. A fellow at my airport is building an RV-7 right now with an IO-360 equipped with the AFP system and his installation is straightforward and simple.

The complex plumbing of the ECI system I mentioned above is one that you really need to build into an RV from the start of the project since you also have to modify the fuel tanks to add the return line ports. Retrofitting an already-built RV-8 with the ECI would be a lot of work to do away from home.
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I don't see why you need to add return lines to the tanks. You should be able to just "T" into the supply lines. Doing this to just one supply line is sufficent as the amount of fuel returned to the tank(s) is minimal during purge operation. That said, I echo the positive remarks about Airflow Performance FI.
 
Based on the comments above, I am leaning towards the AFP system. Later today, I plan to contact both AFP and Precision. I noted that on the AFP website, they provide a lot of RV specific plumbing accessories.

I have an open induction lower cowl. I don't know if that will be a limitation with the installation of the AFP system.

Regards,
 
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Vote AFP

DAGO said:
...I am leaning towards the AFP system.
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I'll raise my hand for AFP. You won't be disappointed with the product and AFP's customer support and knowledge base is second to none! AFP is the only company I know that cheerfully offers unlimited assistance regardless of whose system you're running. That's customer service!
 
ronschreck said:
I don't see why you need to add return lines to the tanks. You should be able to just "T" into the supply lines. Doing this to just one supply line is sufficent as the amount of fuel returned to the tank(s) is minimal during purge operation. That said, I echo the positive remarks about Airflow Performance FI.
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Ron, The position of the mixture and throttle controls the flow during the purge process. Double check the mixture control & throttle position when you purge the system. When they are "fully open" the amount of fuel passing through the return line is substantial. IMHO the return line needs to be in the tank due to volume and the need for cool fuel. Routing the purge return line to the supply line creates a circle. Obviously, this would still cool the system, but fresh colder fuel from the tank would be b etter, IMHO. Does that make sence?

The purge system works great for hot starts on my IO-540, it certain starts faster and easier than not using it. Saves on cranking the starter.
 
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ronschreck said:
I don't see why you need to add return lines to the tanks. You should be able to just "T" into the supply lines. Doing this to just one supply line is sufficent as the amount of fuel returned to the tank(s) is minimal during purge operation. That said, I echo the positive remarks about Airflow Performance FI.
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The ECI system is a different animal than most other FI systems, such as the AFP system. The volume of fuel it returns to the tanks isn't trivial at all, it's not a simple occasional purge operation either, the return is a constant continuous flow whenever the engine is running, plus the return comes out of a centrifugal vapor/liquid separator mechanism in the high-pressure engine-driven pump, so not only is it a constant flow of fuel, it's also been heated up since it's been used to cool the engine-mounted pump, and it potentially has vapor bubbles mixed into the flow. You do not want to mix hot bubbly fuel right back into your pump's input. This system is much like the Continental system used on their IO-360/470/520/550 engines. Some certified aircraft which use the Continental system only return back to one tank, and if you don't carefully manage your tank switching, you can easily overflow your single return tank, blowing precious fuel overboard thru the tank vent. The return line flow rate can be as high as 8 to 10 GPH.

The ECI system *can* be plumbed also with an additional, optional purge type return to supplement the constant return portion of the system, but on my friend's RV-8, that was simply plugged off. Plumbing the constant return portion of that FI system is mandatory, it won't operate correctly without it, but plumbing it's separate purge section is optional. In an ECI system, the return's purpose is to cool the pump during normal running, the optional purge is to only relieve vapor-lock out of the spider and the throttle body for hot starts.
 
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Any Airflow Perfomance FM-150 FI users out there?

I had a very productive conversation with Don at Airflow Performance. He is recommending the new FM-150 fuel injection system. Has anyone had any experience with this newer system?

Another question: In order to convert my FADEC RV-8 to a standard fuel injected, magneto driven system, (I think I know the answer)?do I have to apply for FSDO approval before conducting the mod????

My aircraft is broken down away from its home field, I want to get her done!

Thanks,
 
Airflow Performance

I spoke to Kyle at Airflow Performance, and he recommended the following for my TMXIO360:

Kit Number 800 0021
FM200

I won't get the engine until November, so I can't give you any more information.

I believe it could be that the FM150 will fit better with your existing configuration.

I sure do agree that those guys are helpful!
 
Geico266 said:
IMHO the return line needs to be in the tank due to volume and the need for cool fuel. Routing the purge return line to the supply line creates a circle. Obviously, this would still cool the system, but fresh colder fuel from the tank would be b etter, IMHO. Does that make sence?

The purge system works great for hot starts on my IO-540, it certain starts faster and easier than not using it. Saves on cranking the starter.
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I'm no fuel specialist, just speaking from personnal experience. Agree, that routing the purge line to the supply line creates a circle. But there is a lot of cool fuel in the line aft of the firewall. In MY situation I get enough cool fuel during purge to make hot starts a non-event. YMMV.
 
Neal@F14 said:
The ECI system is a different animal than most other FI systems, such as the AFP system. The volume of fuel it returns to the tanks isn't trivial at all, it's not a simple occasional purge operation either, the return is a constant continuous flow whenever the engine is running, plus the return comes out of a centrifugal vapor/liquid separator mechanism in the high-pressure engine-driven pump, so not only is it a constant flow of fuel, it's also been heated up since it's been used to cool the engine-mounted pump, and it potentially has vapor bubbles mixed into the flow. You do not want to mix hot bubbly fuel right back into your pump's input. This system is much like the Continental system used on their IO-360/470/520/550 engines. Some certified aircraft which use the Continental system only return back to one tank, and if you don't carefully manage your tank switching, you can easily overflow your single return tank, blowing precious fuel overboard thru the tank vent. The return line flow rate can be as high as 8 to 10 GPH.

The ECI system *can* be plumbed also with an additional, optional purge type return to supplement the constant return portion of the system, but on my friend's RV-8, that was simply plugged off. Plumbing the constant return portion of that FI system is mandatory, it won't operate correctly without it, but plumbing it's separate purge section is optional. In an ECI system, the return's purpose is to cool the pump during normal running, the optional purge is to only relieve vapor-lock out of the spider and the throttle body for hot starts.
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Wow, I didn't know that the ECI system was so complex! Thanks for the explanation. I think Tom has decided on the AFP FI and after reading about ECI, I think AFP would be a simpler installation.
 
Tom,
Check the wording in your Phase II operating limitations for "major change" requirements. Yeah, I think they would call this swap "major".

As you know, the new FM150 has no need for a return line. If you go with an FM200 just tee the return line to a tank supply line prior to the fuel selector. For shutdown use it doesn't matter which tank is selected. For hot start purge use select the other tank and no hot fuel is recirculated. Neither use flows any significant volume. It flows none with the engine running.
 
DanH said:
Tom,
Check the wording in your Phase II operating limitations for "major change" requirements. Yeah, I think they would call this swap "major".

As you know, the new FM150 has no need for a return line. If you go with an FM200 just tee the return line to a tank supply line prior to the fuel selector. For shutdown use it doesn't matter which tank is selected. For hot start purge use select the other tank and no hot fuel is recirculated. Neither use flows any significant volume. It flows none with the engine running.
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Dan,

Earlier today I spoke with an Airworthiness Inspector. He was not familiar with the requirements and will get back to me. I explained to him the engine was experimental and the manufacturer authorizes this engine to operate as an O-360, IO-360, IOF-360, etc. We?ll see what happens!

I started removing FADEC components from the engine and airframe today. I decided to go back to plain old Slick mags with most likely the FM150 FI. I will still give Precision a courtesy call.

Regards,
 
Tom,

As the others have said, it depends on your paperwork. Mine is written that should I change a prop, say just changing one FP Sensenich for another but with a different pitch, I would have to write a letter (I think it is called a "Letter of Concurrence") to the FAA and go back to Phase 1 for five hours.

The funny thing is that I'm removing a 135 HP Lycoming O-290-D2 and putting on an ECi 180 hp engine, new prop, cowling, engine mount, etc. and I still get the same five hour Phase 1 test period.

However, the letter makes me legal and will keep my insurance valid. The letter is no big deal and they don't need to come and inspect the plane.
 
DAGO said:
Oh yeah! In about three weeks, MKS closes down for 30 to 60 days for runway repair?gads!!! I have limited myself to 14 cuss words a day!

Regards,
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If you don't have it flying in a couple weeks, we may just have to have a good ol fashion VAF intervention to get it back home.
 
Unbelievable!!! AIRFLOW PERFORMANCE TO THE RESCUE!!!

Just received an email from Don at Airflow Performance. He has offered to fly down and DO THE FI INSTALL!!!

Thanks to you folks on the VAF forum for all the great input!

I am deeply humbled by all this.

Regards,
 
My AFP experience

When I first turned on my AFP FI fuel pump I got a reading of 51 psi after the mechanical pump and 26 psi before the mechanical pump. To establish these pressures I plumbed in a couple inexpensive mechanical fuel pressure gauges. The process was fun and educational and after much mucking about I emailed AFP convinced I had a faulty pressure relief valve and asked for a replacement. Don responded by saying he was sure the relief valve was not faulty as they are all pressure checked prior to shipping them to Vans. None the less without delay or further emails he put a new one in the mail asking that I return the old one asap. He reminded me that the fuel should not be dead headed after the mechanical pump. This is polite code for "put the mixture to full rich idiot". It turns out that the 51 psi was a momentary spike on the initial opening of the poppet valve. The 51 psi spike was then trapped between the mechanical pump check valve and the servo in the ICO position.

I returned the pressure regulator along with a $20 bill and now I am passing on this atta boy. Don Rivera earns your business, I hope that he gets really really rich because he deserves it.

Ian
Slow QB, RV7, IO375, cold air, 68"X75" Catto, AFP FI.
 
gh6gh6 said:
I returned the pressure regulator along with a $20 bill and now I am passing on this atta boy. Don Rivera earns your business, I hope that he gets really really rich because he deserves it.
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Don and his wife Colleen came down to Charleston to do the FI install on my -8. They stayed with us over the weekend. It was a relatively clean install. The biggest pain was installing the mixture control (aircraft previously FADEC powered with throttle only). Just about ready for a test engine start.

Airflow Performance is a first class operation.

Regards
 
Its Back Home

The conversion from FADEC to standard mags and fuel injection has been completed. This morning, I was able to fly the -8 back to its home field. I have some finishing touches to complete, however, the sparks “sparked”, and the fuel injection “injected” flawlessly. It’s great to be back to old fashion ignition!

I have many people to thank:

Don & Colleen Rivera, from Airflow Performance. Don had actually flown his Pilatus out to my location to assess the requirements for the modification. Then he and Colleen drove down to Charleston to do the install. He had to fabricate the throttle / mixture bracket, fuel hoses, and a spacer for the throttle body assembly. The installation took 1 ½ days.

Mahlon Russell, from Mattituk: I consulted with Mahlon about the feasibility of converting my TMX IOF-360 to an IO-360. He put together the Slick Magneto kit for me. He had asked if I had a pair of magneto drives gears (expensive), which I did not. He said that he would rummage around and see if he could find a used pair in pristine condition. When the mags arrived, not only were the gears in pristine condition, they were also installed! When I checked the billing invoice, there was no charge listed for the gears. I called Mahlon and advised him that I was not charged for the gears. He said, “Did the guys install the gears for you? You’ve been through enough, no charge for the gears!”

Sandy, from Grand Rapids Technologies: I had to send my EIS back to GRT for a software revision. The unit had to be converted from FADEC inputs to standard inputs. I had many questions. After many phone calls to Sandy, we put together a field repair packet of cables, harnesses, connectors, D-7 pins, resistors, etc. When I received the updated EIS with the miscellaneous parts, once again, there were no charges for all the parts!

RV8 owner, Don Alexander: Don air expressed to my location his electrical wiring crimping tools via his beautiful blue and polished aluminum RV8.

RV6 owner, Roy Carlson: Roy air expressed to my location Paul Johnson with his box of shrink tubing, connectors, soldering gun, solder, and heat gun.

IA friend, Chris Gallapis: Chris installed the mags, the mixture control cable, and modified the throttle quadrant to accommodate the previously not required mixture control lever. This was perhaps the most frustrating and difficult part of the whole installation.

Jim Yaiser, C-170 owner: Jim has been a friend for over 40 years. He is my go-to guy when I have technical questions. He will take the time to research the answer and give me timely advice. Jim also was the person who checked me out in my -8. He then flew the -8 from San Diego to St Louis. Later, I flew the -8 to its new permanent home in South Carolina.

Eric Harris, Bonanza and Super Cub owner: Eric graciously offered me use of his hangar. Eric’s Bonanza was totaled the day I moved into his hangar. The aircraft was parked on the ramp in Tampa. A Cirrus owner inadvertently started his aircraft with the throttle full open. He panicked, managed to do a screaming 135 degree turn (tire skid marks), and plowed into Eric’s Bonanza!

Sandy Thomas, Manager, Berkeley County Airport: Sandy allowed me use of the county corporate hangar for two days for no charge.

Last of all, I would like to thank all of you for your timely and valuable inputs.
 
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Electrical Connection Stuff

Now that I have the -8 back at its home field, I need a good source for electrical connection hardware. I did the minimum wiring necessary to get the aircraft home. For example, I did not re-installed the EGT and CHT leads. I need terminal and splice connectors and D-7 pins in particular. Where is a good source for this hardware?

Regards,
 
 
EGT/CHT Connections????

I have a question concerning the hook-up of the EGT / CHT leads to my Grand Rapids EIS.

Should the shielded leads run through the firewall and all the way up to the connector on the back of the EIS? Or?could I use the supplied EIS harness, run those leads from the instrument, out through the firewall and connect those leads to the EGT / CHT leads on the engine side of the firewall?

Is it also correct that that the shielded EGT / CHT leads should not be shortened?

I have been in the process of converting my aircraft from a FADEC system to a conventional magneto / fuel injected system. I am attempting to reuse the EGT / CHT leads that were supplied with the engine. I cannot determine the manufacturer of those leads, so I am uncertain about the wiring requirements.

Regards,
 
I used the EIS harness thru the firewall, and made the connections to the SS braided thermocouples FWF on mine. Same as my previous Mooney as I recall. No problems in 100 hours...

Best of Luck;)
 
frazitl said:
I used the EIS harness thru the firewall, and made the connections to the SS braided thermocouples FWF on mine. Same as my previous Mooney as I recall. No problems in 100 hours...

Best of Luck;)
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Thanks Terry, I was hoping that would be the case.:D

Regards,
 
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