[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

I've just been informed that the site I've been camping on for the last 10 years at Oshkosh -- out in the field by the creek -- is now going to be the new 24-hour generator area.

This is necessitated because EAA has seen fit to upgrade the old 24 hour generator with sites with water/electric hookups (i.e. -- the rich people with their fancy camping units), charge them over $40 a night with no credit for unused nights.

So now the blight of land yachts with incessant noise is going to displace those of us who are "old school" campers and I have no idea what space will be left for us, and where POG '10 will be.

Frankly, this is what I was afraid of when the "upgrades" to the AirVenture grounds were announced.

Unfortunately, EAA says no maps will be available for Camp Scholler's new layout for another two weeks.

This makes the Piece of Grass 2010 pretty impossible to pull off now because I have no idea where someone like me will be allowed to camp, so I won't be able to tell people where it'll be.

I have ZERO interest in being within a half-mile of the 24-hour generator people.

I'll try to reassess the situation over the next week or so and, if necessary, refund the money of those who've contributed to POG, because it's pretty clear we won't be able to hold it in the campground, so we won't need to buy extra campsites to hold it.

There are some other options for this event, but the campground experience is the #1 reasons I go to Oshkosh and the EAA seems pretty intent on making it for the more affluent crowd, as opposed to traditional campers.

Too bad. It was one of Oshkosh's real charms.

 

[kevinh]

Hmm - Could we try to have a bunch of us who fly-in try to park together in HBC and have the piece-of-grass gathering there? (I haven't been to Osh in 15 yrs so my mental picture of where the good place is to gather is probably really dated)

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Jeff Point was indicating that there's a tent or pavilion now in HBC. But I don't know if it can be reserved or anything.

I just think it's a shame that you can't pitch a tent in a campground anymore without the incessant racket from some guy who needs his air conditioning and satellite TV. It sounds to me like the old-school camping folks will get pushed out by the highway now. Things certainly are changing.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Just a suggestion Bob...

I am sure there would be no problem posting a notice in Van's display tent describing how to get to the piece of grass get together.

Since Van's display tent is kind of the center of the univers at OSH for people with RV airplane interest, and not very far from the RV (airplane) specific parking area, people could just plan to swing by there sometime before your event and find out where to look for you.

Confirm it with Guss first, but I can't imagine it would be a problem.

Just a thought...

 

[jferraro17]

Can't it just be in Scholler, a little farther out? Pick a new spot and camp.

Don't let the man get you down-
Joe

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

It could, but there are a couple of problems:

-1- With average people getting pushed farther out, it'll be harder to find a place. Usually, that far out in the campground doesn't fill up until Sunday. With fewer spaces, it may be harder to find a spot, even though I show up on Friday.

-2- You can go further out to get away from the noise of the 24-hour area, but then you're "one" with the traffic on Highway 41.

-3- Without having a spot to tell people about in advance, there's no efficient way of having the thing in the campground. It's inviting people to a party without telling them where the party is.

This picture shows how much land the EAA is taking in the campground. This is just the spots being removed and replaced with the water/electrical hookups.

That's almost 400 sites. Given that it's twice the price and there's no refunds, a lot of those campers are going to be looking for spots farther out in the field. Then add in the 24 hour generator people who are being displaced, and that's another, several hundred sites because each on of those is actually at least two sites.

It's not a very good situation, made much more complicated by EAA not telling us what the changes were until today.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Just a suggestion Bob...

I am sure there would be no problem posting a notice in Van's display tent describing how to get to the piece of grass get together.

We could try that. It ends up being a little dicey. We tried that one year and had quite a few folks who said they were told by a worker or two down there that "they didn't know anything about it. But, yeah, that's a possibility.

As I indicated above the problem is really finding a suitable site, not only for POG, but also one I would find personally satisfying as a place I'd like to spend the week.

 

[N8RV]

Bob, how did you find out where the "premium sites" are? I wrote to EAA and asked, because I was positive that they would be right where I've camped for nearly 20 years -- up near the Camp Security HQ. Each year, I've been pushed back another row or two so that Tom could make money off the Land Yacht crowd or now the rental campers. So far, I've received no response from EAA.

When I suggested to the spousal unit that we just park in HBC, she nixed the idea. She's not much of a camper, and really doesn't like too much change at once. She "strongly suggested" that we just eat the higher fee and camp as close to our usual spot as possible.

Irritates me ... AirVulture ... but still the Greatest Show on Earth.

 

[turbo]

good thuings turn up out of bad situations.

the creek sounded nice , good luck and dont give up.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Bob, how did you find out where the "premium sites" are? I wrote to EAA and asked, because I was positive that they would be right where I've camped for nearly 20 years -- up near the Camp Security HQ. Each year, I've been pushed back another row or two so that Tom could make money off the Land Yacht crowd or now the rental campers. So far, I've received no response from EAA.

I first heard about it from Glenn Brasch, who has always camped next to the locator shack near 24-hour camping and was faced with being displaced. The EAA has a blog that the guy in charge of the grounds keeps and while he did a MUCH better job last year of documenting the changes, he put up a post a week or so ago with the image that I posted above.

It'll be interesting to see how big those hookup spots are because that area along Schaick Rd is almost all big RVs and if they are getting pushed out, they'll take up two spots out in the field for every one that is there now.

Up until today, there was no getting any information about where 24-hour generator was going to be. I only found out because I sent a note to EAA to be sure I had permission to buy a lot of sites (they had a rule that at least one EAAer has to be on every site) and they looked at the POG Web site and told me that's where 24 hour camping is going to go now.

It kind of looks to me like they're using the South Africans' area as the line of demarcation on the hookups but I can't quite tell from the image.

Anyway, from what I understand your spouses reaction is EXACTLY what's behind a lot of the changes. Women don't like PortaPotties and sleeping on the ground; they want comfort and this is a way to get them to start showing up. My wife is the same way. She doesn't want to sleep on the ground anymore. And $410 is not an unreasonable price for a week of "luxury."

But it still saddens me that another little piece of the old vibe of a campground is disappearing.

Personally, the exhibition of riches by all the rich people and their giant RVs embarrasses me. To me, it's a battle of perception between those who believe aviation is an area that welcomes and can accommodate the average person and those people who know it can't. (g)

 

[lcnmrv8r]

rv vs rv

Too many folks taking the wrong rv to Osh.

 

[N8RV]

I beg to differ ...

Too many folks taking the wrong rv to Osh.

As a resident of the "RV Capital of the World" -- with nearly 20% unemployment here -- I think I'd rather see MORE road-bound RVs being made than the flying kind right now.

Selfish, I know. Sorry ...

 

[painless]

I say we just all show up at the end of the day at the big fancy Ford pavillion and take over the place. Might as well use it for something remotely aviation related. I imagine a couple hundred RV pilots/builders with beers in their hands would intimidate any volunteer security guard!

 

[N395V]

Personally, the exhibition of riches by all the rich people and their giant RVs embarrasses me. To me, it's a battle of perception between those who believe aviation is an area that welcomes and can accommodate the average person and those people who know it can't.

Bob,

It is unlike you to condemn a group of people based upon their income or any other fact for that manner.

I understand your frustration with the EAA for converting more of their assets to cater to higher paying campers but this is the EAA's decision and not the fault of Winnebago owners. Many Winnebago owners worked hard for their wealth and do not deserve to be bashed for using it as they see fit. No more than we (airplane owners) should be tagged as rich people playing with expensive and unecessary toys. Direct your ire at the eaa not those who work hard and spend their resources on things they enjoy be it a Winnebago or an RV 7.

 

[JACKR]

THANK YOU

Bob,

It is unlike you to condemn a group of people based upon their income or any other fact for that manner.

I understand your frustration with the EAA for converting more of their assets to cater to higher paying campers but this is the EAA's decision and not the fault of Winnebago owners. Many Winnebago owners worked hard for their wealth and do not deserve to be bashed for using it as they see fit. No more than we (airplane owners) should be tagged as rich people playing with expensive and unecessary toys. Direct your ire at the eaa not those who work hard and spend their resources on things they enjoy be it a Winnebago or an RV 7.

DITTO DITTO DITTO!!! GEZZ.....I get so tired of people knocking others for doing well. GEE WIZZZZZ, I don't get it

 

[RickWoodall]

Opinions

I would love to one day fly in and camp under the wing of my plane when finished. That is my dream and hope for 2011. Until then, I am content (actually love) making it a family trip. We drive a long way (Ontario Canada) and with our camper its a fun family trip that all enjoy. We do use some power where we hook up, no need for running a genie. This will be the 4th. Due to having a trailer there, I have had older inlaws come with us, and my kids when they were very young. None would have been accomplished without the power and cold beer and a few luxuries...they arent hard core aviation fans.

I dont think the 24 hour genenerator zone is needed, but power and water is really nice. For the tens of thousands that make this family trip from all over the world...not a lot to ask really.

If we are going to say its "BAD" for the big land yatchs to pull in, lets figure out where we draw the line. Do we all need glass panels, do we need A/Ps, synthetic vision, fancy power monitors..or laptops with wifi? If we truly are grass roots aviators, lets all build tiger moths from plans and drink warm beer under the wing at night. Somewhere in the middle is likely common ground. It is a rich mans hobby, no denying that. Some are just richer.

Just saying.

 

[Louise Hose]

Bob, I can't believe you said it!

Anyway, from what I understand your spouses reaction is EXACTLY what's behind a lot of the changes. Women don't like PortaPotties and sleeping on the ground; they want comfort and this is a way to get them to start showing up.

Would you like to compare camping and wilderness credentials, Bob? I'll start with these:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0105/feature4/
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/oman/caves-text

If you want women to "start showing up", treat them with respect and not this sort of talk.

 

[ChiefPilot]

If you want women to "start showing up", treat them with respect and not this sort of talk.

I can't imagine Bob meant anything derogatory by his comment; in fact, the rough camping is the exact stated reason why my wife won't go to Osh with me.

 

[N8RV]

Would you like to compare camping and wilderness credentials, Bob? I'll start with these:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0105/feature4/
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/oman/caves-text

If you want women to "start showing up", treat them with respect and not this sort of talk.

Geez, Louise ... lighten up. (I just wanted to say that line -- I don't know anyone else named Louise)

Neat articles. I did my spelunking many moons ago -- I'll leave such daring-do to you.

I doubt that Bob meant any disrespect. Face it, you're not like most EAA wives -- most aren't into flying or spelunking. They run the gamut from tolerance to enjoyment, but for most, it's not the highlight of their summers.

When I mentioned my wife's request to not make too many changes, it was a reflection of her tolerance for the Oshkosh Adventure. She drives up every couple of years to join me (usually after relentless hounding by yours truly) and camps out with me. I drag her to Friar Tuck's. She patiently walks around with me as I drool over airplanes. She meets my friends and is gracious and endearing.

She has camped and hiked in the wilderness of Colorado, Utah, Arizona and Europe for years, and she's not a wimp. However, given a choice between a porta-potty or a flusher, she'll take the flusher every time. That's not being disrespectful, it's just a statement of fact.

Paul's indeed a lucky man to have you around to share his passions. Unfortunately, however, most of us have to find other avenues for shared passion -- which explains men strolling around arts and crafts shows and walking little yapper dogs.

Or riding pink scooters ... [ed. Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!! dr]

 

[jferraro17]

This has run it's predictable course.

Everyone's offended, everyone take a deep breath.

Closed.

 

[gbrasch]

This has run it's predictable course.

Everyone's offended, everyone take a deep breath.

Closed.

....Anyway Bob, as you know I camp in the 24 hour area every year, but in all the years I have been there, I only used my generator 1 time at night, about 15 years ago when the heat was unbearable. It is usually very quiet at night, if you remember, so maybe you want to rethink things.....or as others suggested, lets just find another spot. Hey, lets have it at Larry's in the pet area and watch our step!!!