R

rwagner24

Active Member
Hey All,
I know the title of my post probably made some veteran builders shiver but hear me out. I'm building a RV8 Quick Build and have the tail finished and am working on the left wing. I have been a pilot since 1998 but this is my first build. I am an automotive technician specializing in electrical problems. I attended a RV Assembly Workshop. I left that workshop with the message you must use aviation hardware period. Here is my current source of frustration. In the automotive world I would absolutely never use a butt connector to join two wires. They corrode over time and cause random electrical problems. I always soldered wires and used heat shrink. I had a tech counselor tell me not to solder because vibration can cause the solder to crack, use butt connectors. I ordered Adel style clamps to hold the wires away from anything they could rub on but never thought about the small bolts and lock nuts I would use to attach them. Would hardware store bolts washers and lock nuts be ok? It just seems like every time I get started working on something I have to stop and wait 3 days for an Aircraft Spruce Order to come. I would like to put plugs on the back of my landing light wires. Are good quality plugs from NAPA ok or do they have to come from a place like Stein Air? I would never use hardware store bolts on anything important like flight controls, but it just seems like over kill for holding a Adel clamp to a wing rib. Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Ryan we've used a lot of good automotive stuff on my RV's. Soldering and heat shrink is far superior to butt joints...the guy is wrong about that.

Adel clamp bolts with STEEL locknuts should be used FWF because of heat concerns and the plastic softening.

As long as you're using good aircraft type practices, you're good to go. One subscriber/advertizer on here, uses MSD type ignition in modified mags for higher energy spark...all this permissible in the Experimental arena.

You have a lot of leeway in this category of aircraft manufacture..and a lot less cost as well. Use good aviation practise that a DAR would allow at the inspection phase.

Best,
 
You'll get lots of replies on your question, no doubt.

There certainly are places where good automotive hardware is preferable
in place of old fashioned and outdated aircraft hardware mostly when it comes to electrical items like blade fuse panel, all weather connector plugs such as those found in an automotive engine compartments for example.
Your tech counselor is correct, soldering is generally not an acceptable method
to connect wires in an aircraft.
When it comes to nuts and bolts as well as screws I use aircraft hardware exclusively. In many places Home Depot substitutes would be ok but when someone inspects your plane and finds non certified nuts and bolts here and there, it leaves much doubt about the rest of the airplane construction, making the inspector wonder just where all that ACE hardware has been used.
Although Vans kits include just about every rivet nut and bolt that you need, you'll want to get some extras for adding things that you want.
Purchase a large nut and bolt set as well as a good assortment of adel clamps,
extra screws, nut plates and a variety of hardware commonly used throughout the construction process. This will cost you two or three hundred dollar but you won't have to wait every time you need an extra nut plate. Just replenish the items when you do place an order for other things.
I have also purchased from Vans a few sheets (2'x4') of aluminum as well as some angle and bar stock. Turned out that I used it mostly to (lend) it to other builders :rolleyes:
For most of us its easiest to purchase electrical stuff in one place rather than chase all over for single items. Stein is my electrical go to guy they have everything you need. You may know where to go for certain items but you'll still want to get tefzel coated wires and you might as well get the rest of it there.
 
I left that workshop with the message you must use aviation hardware period.
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Take a look at the labels on the Engine Control Cables that Vans supply: 'Not for Aircraft Use'

Ditto the hinge material used in control surfaces e.g. flaps / trim tab, is also stated elsewhere as not suitable for this application.

As above, you will get differing opinions ;)
 
That's the kind of stuff that drives me crazy. I know how to run wires and protect them, connect them that the never come undone in cars but can't do it that way in a airplane. I have seen alot of pictures on here where guys use the wire holders with the double sided tape and a loop to run a zip tie through. You see them used to hold wires away from moving controls. They almost always come loose over time, I'm suprised that's ok.
 
Common sense

There are many areas where quality non aviation hardware can be used. Also, how do we know some of this is "aviation."

There are many hardware suppliers listed on this forum but how do you know? It comes down to application and common sense.

Let me give some examples. 1) I had to replace my Advanced Flight oil temperature sensor. The first one was run with a continuous run from the engine to the engine monitor, bundled with a bunch of wires, tied up, adel clamped all the way. The new one came with with about an 8" lead.

So, I cut, stripped and, oh no, soldered a 3 pin gold pinned Deans RC plug in line. The entire plug was heat shrinked and refastened to the engine mount with other wires. Works great. High quality and small. Much better than a Molex in my opinion.

Many of us have bought fasteners from Micro Fasteners for a variety of purposes. Is it "aviation?" Don't know. I often use stainless steal hex head bolts for use with adel clamps because it is easier sometimes to use a hex head ball driver than a screw driver.

The Allen company recommends using hobby shop hardware for the flap sensor attachment to the flap actuation bar!! I've used several RC electrical fittings where appropriate. Almost 750 hours and they haven't failed.

I think you can see my point. I also agree with Pierre that there are places and occasions where a good solder job would work where crimping may or many not be practical or possible.

Another news flash, the 3 million dollar helicopter I fly at work has plenty of places where wires have solder joints.
 
From RV7Guy

So, I cut, stripped and, oh no, soldered a 3 pin gold pinned Deans RC plug in line. The entire plug was heat shrinked and refastened to the engine mount with other wires. Works great. High quality and small. Much better than a Molex in my opinion.

Soldering is not bad if you heat shrink correctly for support. Lots of stuff was built this way and made it all the way to the moon intact...:)

The Deans connectors mentioned have gold plated pins which are much better for smaller currents, such as sensor wiring, than the tin-plated standard Molex pins.

Alternative hardware is OK if done with care, and may even crop up more in the electrical field...

If it's structural, think carefully first.
 
pierre smith said:
Ryan we've used a lot of good automotive stuff on my RV's. Soldering and heat shrink is far superior to butt joints...the guy is wrong about that.
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Gotta disagree with you on this one Pierre.

To the best of my knowledge, AC43-13 (or any aircraft document that I'm aware of) does not authorize solder connections or solder repairs to aircraft wiring.

I'm not saying that a good solder repair or connection can't be done, but crimping is currently the only "acceptable" means unless specifically approved by the manufacturer.
 
Soldering issues

Soldering wires can be either a problem, or not depending on what and where, and how it is supported.

The big problem with solder is it wicks up the wire, and makes it stiff, and if things are not supported properly the wire will flex, and eventually break at the end of the solder stiffened area.

Example would be to solder a wire to a sensor which is mounted to the engine and not support the wire for a foot or so. This will fail in due time.

To solder a joint in two wires, (cover with heat shrink) which are bundled with other wires, and properly supported will probably last forever.

It is all in the application.
 
Walt said:
Gotta disagree with you on this one Pierre.

I'm not saying that a good solder repair or connection can't be done, but crimping is currently the only "acceptable" means unless specifically approved by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

So, because he is the manufacturer, he just has to specifically approve it and its good to go! :D

Couldn't help myself.
 
Walt said:
Gotta disagree with you on this one Pierre.

To the best of my knowledge, AC43-13 (or any aircraft document that I'm aware of) does not authorize solder connections or solder repairs to aircraft wiring.

I'm not saying that a good solder repair or connection can't be done, but crimping is currently the only "acceptable" means unless specifically approved by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Wrong "best of your knowledge"....:)

Open Chapter 11 of 43.13

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2043.13-1B/$FILE/Chapter%2011.pdf

...and do a simple word search for "solder"...

Lots of hits...

I like this bit...

...following should be considered in the selection
of wire terminals.
(1) Current rating.
(2) Wire size (gauge) and insulation diameter.
(3) Conductor material compatibility.
(4) Stud size.
(5) Insulation material compatibility.
(6) Application environment.
(7) Solder/solderless.

It even references Mil Spec "solder cup" connectors with no crimp ability.

Again, common sense applies, usually better than memory...:)
 
az_gila said:
Wrong "best of your knowledge"....:)

Open Chapter 11 of 43.13

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2043.13-1B/$FILE/Chapter%2011.pdf

...and do a simple word search for "solder"...

Lots of hits...

I like this bit...

...following should be considered in the selection
of wire terminals.
(1) Current rating.
(2) Wire size (gauge) and insulation diameter.
(3) Conductor material compatibility.
(4) Stud size.
(5) Insulation material compatibility.
(6) Application environment.
(7) Solder/solderless.

It even references Mil Spec "solder cup" connectors with no crimp ability.

Again, common sense applies, usually better than memory...:)
Click to expand...

Again, only partial information is being given.... The paragraph you are referring to is Chapter 11 Section 14 paragraph 11-174 subsection (a). What you didn't bother to put in your post is the VERY next sentence states "Pre-insulated crimp-type ring-tongue terminals are preferred." You are quoting information for terminal repairs only though so be careful.

For the splicing of wires please refer to Chapter 11 Section 13 paragraph 11-167 subsection (B) for the information on splices. "Many types of aircraft splice connectors are available for use when splicing individual wires. use of a self insulated splice connector is preferred; however, a non insulated splice connector may be used provided the splice is covered with plastic sleeving that is secured at both ends. Environmentally sealed splices, that conform to MIL-T-7928, provide a reliable means of splicing in SWAMP areas. However, a noninsulated splice connector may be used, provided the splice is covered with dual wall shrink sleeving of a suitable material"

I agree 100% with what Mike S is saying. Solder can wick up the wire turning it into a rigid form where vibration can, over time, weaken the wire if not supported correctly. I use environmental splices in all wiring I do, either on certified aircraft or experimental, inside or outside. They are easy to use and once the crimp is performed, a sleeve is slid over and shrunk down over it containing the entire splice to keep out the elements. They are also color coded to help with easy identification of correct crimp per wire size. Example: http://www.ecasinc.com/parts/number/D436-36

With that being said, I have seen somewhere the acceptable solder type of splice but I can't seem to locate where i have seen it. I'm going to have to dig into my A&P books! :) Otherwise I'll it will bother me all night until I remember where I have seen it and can point you in the direction of the reference. Highly recommend every person building an airplane pick up a AC43-13 and keep it in the shop. It has tons of great information. And everyone here at the forums is great too!
 
Yes... crimp is preferred, but if you do it correctly (per AC43.13) the wimpy $50 ratchet crimpers don't exactly cut it per all of the other references in that Chapter.

You said solder is not approved, however there is essentially only one way of wiring up your headphone jacks....:)

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Jack_Tab_Soldering/Jack_Tab_Soldering.html

26a.jpg


Solder is OK if done carefully and must be protected with heat shrink. Solder can wick up the strands, but try it and see how far up it goes - it's not that far.

As I said before it got a lot of stuff to the moon and Mars (including stuff I designed)... per these old specs...

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~phylabs/bsc/PDFFiles/Soldered.pdf

You can't apply NASA specs everywhere, but I believe a splice done like that on page 81 (much more modern) here -

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.pdf

- will be good enough for our planes if properly supported....
 
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Crimp

The crimp connectors you link to seem neat and will do a great job, but are probably too commercial for most homebuilders, given the many sizes/combinations that could be used...

http://raychem.te.com/documents/webservice/fetch.ashx?fileid=8460&docId=927

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...D-436-36/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuIC3ROaEqRYRKcH550f9US

update - they do seem to follow the red/blue/yellow standard...

They also need a $200 crimper to do the job correctly - again as stated in AC 43.13

http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-raychem/ad-1377-crimp-tool-3-cvty/hand-crimp-tool/dp/36K7793

PS - I do wish I had a bunch of those crimp terminals and the tool...:)
 
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For what it's worth

In my A&p practical test, I was required to demonstrate the proper method for tinning wire ends and soldering the two ends together.
 
az_gila said:
The crimp connectors you link to seem neat and will do a great job, but are probably too commercial for most homebuilders, given the many sizes/combinations that could be used...

http://raychem.te.com/documents/webservice/fetch.ashx?fileid=8460&docId=927

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...D-436-36/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuIC3ROaEqRYRKcH550f9US

update - they do seem to follow the red/blue/yellow standard...

They also need a $200 crimper to do the job correctly - again as stated in AC 43.13

http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-raychem/ad-1377-crimp-tool-3-cvty/hand-crimp-tool/dp/36K7793

PS - I do wish I had a bunch of those crimp terminals and the tool...:)
Click to expand...

These are the ones I use with PIDG terminals, NEVER had one fail:
Amp Red-Blue

Like my daddy used say: ya gotta have the right tool for the job son!

The enviromental splices are great but they are a pain to install, cost about $3-4 each and not really necessary on GA aircraft.
 
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60av8tor said:
Holy cow:eek: I agree about the right tool for the right job, but Walt, I have to ask just out of curiosity - having never seen a tool this pricey in the flesh - what makes a crimper cost $1845???
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These are production quality, mil spec certified crimpers, makes it so easy even a dummy like me can perform a mil spec crimp every time :D
 
Gil - I bought my set of crimpers for $40 of ebay for the environmental splices. They have the "produced to mil spec (can't remember what the mil is printed on it)" printed right on them and are DMC crimpers. If you search around you can find them for a great price. http://www.cms-tools.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GMT232&Category_Code=Crimp_Tools I do agree that paying full price is probably a little expensive. And I have found the splices for as little as .50 a piece! To me having the kind of crimp and environmental protection is worth two quarters.


Walt its interesting you state that they are to expensive for GA aircraft. Every customer I have had wither it is a Cessna 150 or a Citation 10 have all wanted me to use these crimps and love the result. Guess we have a different customer base.

We are all free to use whatever process we want in the end just as long as it is safe.
 
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MNAv8or said:
And I have found the splices for as little as .50 a piece! To me having the kind of crimp and environmental protection is worth two quarters.


Walt its interesting you state that they are to expensive for GA aircraft. Every customer I have had wither it is a Cessna 150 or a Citation 10 have all wanted me to use these crimps and love the result. Guess we have a different customer base.

We are all free to use whatever process we want in the end just as long as it is safe.
Click to expand...

If you have a good source for the enviro splices I would be interested, I have the Raychem crimper for them but rarely use them anymore. Boeing required them in the wings and engines but anywhere else we used PIDG.

Half (probably more) of the old Cessnas/Pipers I see are wiring disasters so you defiinately must have a "higher class" customer base than I do :rolleyes:
 
Walt said:
Half (probably more) of the old Cessnas/Pipers I see are wiring disasters :rolleyes:
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You will not hear an argument from me on that statement! lol

I will try to track down where I found them that cheap. At the time I bought enough to probably secure fort knox as I new I might not find that price again. If i can dig up the shipping receipt I will pass it on for sure.
 
Thanks for all the info so far. Where do you guys like to get you electrical plugs? I would like to put plugs in my wing tips and at the wing root. I like the plugs
Shown in this video:
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=713328494001
But trying to look up the individual components makes me want to sell my kit :mad: I don't think they make them to handle landing light current (duct works) anyway. The metal barrel style look nice too but the same pain looking up each part. Even the molex kind has so many dam options. Any suggestions?
 
when are non-aviation parts OK?

Greetings Ryan!

I was a mechanic for 10 years, (NIASE certified just to show you how old I am) and when I started building my plane, I asked similar questions.

I believe you will find PLENTY of opinions around this issue, and in many places, more than just Electrical, but here are some things to thing about:

1. There are a couple of documents:

AC 43.13-1B - Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - xxx/xxx


that can be purchased from any aircraft parts supply store, from the FAA for $25 or read/downloaded from the Internet at the FAA.GOV site. I suggest a review of this document to see about HOW to do stuff.

2. I suggest you use ONLY Aircraft nuts and bolts anywhere on the project. Just get your nerve and wallet together and order a selection of basic hardware from one of the folks who advertize on this site. Calling a vendor listed here and telling them what you are starting will get you a good selection.

3. For electrical stuff, go to the AeroElectric Connection at:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/

Bob is the long standing electrical guru, and like any guru, some guys like him and some don't. BUT you will never go wrong following his advice. Buy the book.

4. When making component decesions, I think in two classes: Safety of Flight and Other. If I burn out a tail light, the plane will still fly. If I use eBay LED's for the panel, I carry a flashlight. You get the point.

5. Ask lots of questions on this forum and keep your asbestos underwear handy. Better to ask and get poop than not to ask at all. Read all replies carefully, and try to understand the risks and responsibilities. Ask the question: Would I want my mom in this plane?

6. In many ways the automotive world has far surpassed the GA aircraft world. This is usually why we build instead of buy. We would not even HAVE the EFIS system if it were not for the airbag.

7. A $1,865 crimper is more dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced, untrained builder than a $50 one with experience and practice. But everyone should stay away from the $5 one from Big Lots.

Stay on the forum, and you will do OK. After all 7,000 folks before you made it.

Dkb
 
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Sounds good, I will use all aviation hardware and crimp all connections I can. There might be a stray deans rc plug behind my landing lights though;)
 
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