[McFly]

What recourse do you have if the FAA inspector or DAR dings you on something and you believe that your installation or method is correct? Is there something that you can do during the inspection? I assume that the proof is on the builder.

The "ELT Location II" thread prompts this question but lists are full of stories where one guy gets dinged for something but than a second guy states "that the way my DAR/FAA guys wants it done". Many thanks.

 

[treeez]

A lot of things are subject to an individuals interpretation of what the regs say. One DAR may have a different opinion than another. If you can prove a point of contention and the inspector doesn't want to listen, find another inspector. Now if you find 3 or 4 more inspectors that gig the same item, you might want to reconsider your position.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Shop around

It is like flight examiners. When I was training pilots I would debrief my students post check ride and so did the other instructors. Hey it is not cheating knowing what the "MO" is of the examiner.

Same with inspectors. They want to sign it off, they need to CYA but more CTA. However many just want to show you or catch something to teach you something, which is cool. May I suggest you network and find out what MO's the DAR's in the area have. The FAA may be the way to go. They are fair, no really not joke.

Last part of the success of RV's is most inspectors know RV's well. I would just do it right, to the best of your abilies. Ask fellow builders for DAR recommendations. George

 

[tacchi88]

Inspectors

Inspecting any airplane homebuilt or certified is a challenge. As an IA, I will admit to passing some marginal equipment. Though this marginal equipment is never approved if the component could be a danger to flight, because of some obscure reason. Case in point is stop drilling. It is not legal for flight, despite that we all see it on any flight line. A FAA ramp check and some unwilling FAA type with nothing to fill is log book can and will ground that aircraft.
A DAR has much the same dilema. This is not to elevate them to God like status, but some times they too look the other way.
As homebuilders we fall under the umbrella of CFR23, and two or three regs. If an argument should appear, the first set of rule can be found in AC43.13 1B and 2a. These are normal, accepted practices, and any DAR would surely related to this manual.
To argue your case, AC43.13 can and will prove your position and/or reason for building as you did. At that point, no DAR can argue the case. If he does, then go over his head.
Often times, as is the case with many homebuilts, there is a tendency to "work outside the envelope". This is fine, since after all, we are experimental, but one cannot overlook any "responsible " DAR" that some part, may either not comply with "Accepted Methods, 43.13" or that he may think that it may be an unsafe to fly.
You do have recourse, but be sure you are "armed " with details and information before arguing your case. Keep in mind that if he "dings" it, he too will have to prove his case.
Good luck
T88

 

[Mel]

A few "rules" to remember when "shopping" for a DAR. Once you hire a DAR and present the airplane and 8130.6 (airworthiness application) the DAR or FAA inspector is required to either issue or deny an airworthiness certificate. This does not mean that the aircraft must pass on the first visit. If there are descrepancies, the inspector will give you a list and tell you to call him/her when the list has been brought up to date. The DAR will expect to be paid on the first visit. After all, you are paying for the inspection, not the certificate. If you and the DAR dissagree on a point, the DAR will most likely call in his primary inspector (this is his FAA supervisor) to make a final determination. Keep in mind that the FAA inspector will rarely overrule a DAR because most DARs are more familiar with amateur-builts than he is. If you refuse to make the corrections required by the inspector, he/she will write a "letter of denial" to you with a copy going to the local FSDO and Oklahoma City. This will be put out by immediate e-mail to all inspectors and DARs so that you will not try to "sneak" a problem past another inspector. Letters of denial are extremely rare. We all want to get your airplane into the air. I have been doing this for 7 years and have never written a letter of denial.
DARs are here to serve you. We don't want to harrass you. We just want your airplane to be safe. You are our business. We want you happy.
If you have any further questions or just want to talk about it feel free to call me. 972-784-7544
Mel...DAR

 

[gmcjetpilot]

You want me to do WHAT!

This will be put out by immediate e-mail to all inspectors and DARs so that you will not try to "sneak" a problem past another inspector. Letters of denial are extremely rare. We all want to get your airplane into the air. I have been doing this for 7 years and have never written a letter of denial.
DARs are here to serve you. We don't want to harrass you. We just want your airplane to be safe. You are our business. We want you happy.
Mel...DAR

Well said, I say fix it and call them back. One point Mel you don't certify it is airworthy. A pretty airplane, ONE OF A KIND, meeting all regs and paper work could be signed off and be a death trap. My point is they are not signing off it is safe or airworthy.

I think the original question was implying things like your ELT under the instrument panel, verses the tail, or the ELT antenna buried in the tail intersection fairing.

What about home grown LED nav lights? If it is not certified who knows if it meets the intensity, color and coverage requirements. Too much or too little is no good. Would they notice or care?

There is the one about the Dynon D10 EFIS. The DAR said it must have a wet compass. I plan on no compass since the Dynon has a magnetic indicator. I happened to be at the FSDO for CFI renewal and asked if the certification guys could talk to me. I asked this question. He was cool, knew the regs and agreed based on the regs. He did not blink an eye., he pointed several other things we do not need to meet, the big one is Part 23 for example. I think we are out of Part 43 as well.

So if you know the regs you have some ammunition, you may avoid a problem. I am not saying school the DAR, but if it comes up you have the ref.; it makes it easier for them to agree with you. If it is minor, fix it.

The thing to do if you are concerned with some spacific aspect is call first. Hey if it is wrong fix it. It should be worked out before the DAR comes out. Moving an ELT, putting certified NAV lights on or adding a wet compass is not a big deal, you just don't want a surprise. As the builder should know what is HARD rules and soft rules. I asked about Aeroflash strobes BTW. Good to go.

You can turn your RV in to a twin engine Bi-plane anphibian and get it signed off as long as the EXPERIMENTAL sticker is on straight. I am being funny but the point is the sign off is not a safety check.

G

 

[RV7Guy]

Interesting thread

The DAR I used clearly told me that DAR's were NOT to be doing A&P type inspections. Paraphrasing his comments, he said, "you have built and certified in your log book that the plane was built to the plans and with acceptable methods and practices. I'm here make sure the paperwork is properly completed and meets the requirements for obtaining the airworthiness certificate."

My plane was thoroughly inspected by 2 A&P's, one of which has built two RV's and did the first couple of flights. I received an extensive "fix list" from him. This, in advance of the DAR visit.

The DAR only wanted the cowl and spinner off the plane. He inspected everything up front and then had me get in the plane and buckle up. Full flight control checks were made as well as the "John Denver" check. (Being able to reach all systems).

My question, is there specific published guidelines as to the job description of the DAR? It seems as if the DAR's in the Phoenix area are all pretty much on the same sheet of music and we haven't had planes falling out of the sky.

This in contrast to some 4+ hour inspections with every removeable panel piece off the plane. It would certainly be nice if the mistery was removed from the process and nationwide standardarization of the process.

 

[RV6_flyer]

FAA Order 8130.2F Change 1 is the current ORDER that the DAR uses for inspection of amateur built aircraft.

http://tinyurl.com/8fxtg

Section 9 covers Amateur Built Aircraft on page 149.
Paragraph 146 on page 149 starts with General.

See Paragraph 147 Certification Procedrues on page 153.
Section (c) of Par 147 has the list of what is required for the Aircraft Inspection. (page 154-155).

See Paragraph 153 on page 161 for OpLims.

I do MORE than what is required on airplanes that I inspect. I do as much of a CONDITION INSPECTION as possible. My goal is for the builder to have a SAFE airplane.

The ORDER spells out ELT and FAR 91.207.

Read what Mel posted in this thread for more info. I have nothing else to add of value.

Gary A. Sobek
AB DAR

snip

My question, is there specific published guidelines as to the job description of the DAR? It seems as if the DAR's in the Phoenix area are all pretty much on the same sheet of music and we haven't had planes falling out of the sky.

snip

 

[Mel]

Gary is quite correct. The DAR is free to inspect the aircraft to whatever extent he feels is necessary to be assured that the aircraft is "safe for flight".
I personally want to see all connection points for the flight and engine controls, and fuel connections. My inspection also very closely resembles a condition inspection. If everything is ready when I get there, the inspection generally takes about 2 to 2 1/2 hrs. And believe me, I have found discrepancies that would render the aircraft "not safe for flight". I'm not talking about sloppy builders either. When you are so close to a project for so long, it is very easy to overlook things that you wouldn't believe. When I point out things like missing bolts, I'm usually greeted with "How in the world did I miss that?"
When you hire a DAR you're paying for a good inspection, and that's exactly what we strive to give you. Not just a paper trail.

And George, I didn't say we certify it as airworthy. The title of the 8130-6 is "Application for U.S. Airworthiness Certificate", and the 8130-7 is a "Special Airworthiness Certificate"

Mel...DAR

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Right

And George, I didn't say we certify it as airworthy. The title of the 8130-6 is "Application for U.S. Airworthiness Certificate", and the 8130-7 is a "Special Airworthiness Certificate" Mel...DAR

Oh I know that, I must have miss typed. G