R

RNB

Active Member
Patron
How involved are you in your annuals? Who does them? How much does it cost?
I'm starting AP school in a couple months but had not realized that in the experimental world the owner can perform all work. AP or IA or holder of repairman certificate required only for the condition inspection.

For my certified plane, I've been invited a couple times to do some work on it, then have an IA come inspect. I wonder if something similar happens at inspection times for experimental. Open the plane up, do maintenance on the engine, leave top plugs out for inspection if desired, lubricate. Have list of applicable special inspection items. Then bring an AP or IA in for whatever timeframe is needed.

What actually happens?

My certified annual this year was base price $2700 (27hrs), most of it was checklist following by an AP (or 17 yr old employee). They did most everything, then the shop owner IA followed up.
 
RNB said:
How involved are you in your annuals? Who does them? How much does it cost?
I'm starting AP school in a couple months but had not realized that in the experimental world the owner can perform all work. AP or IA or holder of repairman certificate required only for the condition inspection.

For my certified plane, I've been invited a couple times to do some work on it, then have an IA come inspect. I wonder if something similar happens at inspection times for experimental. Open the plane up, do maintenance on the engine, leave top plugs out for inspection if desired, lubricate. Have list of applicable special inspection items. Then bring an AP or IA in for whatever timeframe is needed.

What actually happens?

My certified annual this year was base price $2700 (27hrs), most of it was checklist following by an AP (or 17 yr old employee). They did most everything, then the shop owner IA followed up.
Click to expand...
If you build your -10 you will be able to do entire inspection and sign off. If you buy you will need an IA willing to allow you to assist (as you describe in your second paragraph) then the IA will need to sign off.

At least you could remove the seats, carpeting and inspection covers - the grunt work - to save paying $100 per hour for non-skilled labor.
 
Amadeus said:
If you build your -10 you will be able to do entire inspection and sign off. If you buy you will need an IA willing to allow you to assist (as you describe in your second paragraph) then the IA will need to sign off.

At least you could remove the seats, carpeting and inspection covers - the grunt work - to save paying $100 per hour for non-skilled labor.
Click to expand...
There are no IA requirements in the "Amateur-Built" world. IAs are concerned with "type certificates". A&P is all that is required.
 
Initially, for each condition inspection, I watched and assisted. I removed the interior, pulled the floor, removed inspection panels and fairings, etc. Then I stopped doing that stuff. For this most recent CI a couple of weeks ago, my A&P did it over the course of a week in my hangar as usual. Afterward, we went over Van's CI checklist point-by point. He's an A&P/IA for one of the two air ambulance services at the airport. He charged me $650, including borescope and fuel pressure fluctuation investigation, not including the cost of oil, filter, plugs, and the engine-driven fuel pump he replaced ($450). That's been the usual price range over the last 5 years...I'm pretty happy with that.
 
Amadeus said:
If you build your -10 you will be able to do entire inspection and sign off. If you buy you will need an IA willing to allow you to assist (as you describe in your second paragraph) then the IA will need to sign off.

At least you could remove the seats, carpeting and inspection covers - the grunt work - to save paying $100 per hour for non-skilled labor.
Click to expand...
What if I buy? That is the question.
 
Amadeus said:
If you buy you will need an A&P willing to allow you to assist (as you describe in your second paragraph) then the A&P will need to sign off.
Click to expand...
And they vary on what they will let you do and what they want to see. Some won’t do owners assist at all. Find one that works the way you want and build a relationship.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RNB
JonJay said:
And they vary on what they will let you do and what they want to see. Some won’t do owners assist at all. Find one that works the way you want and build a relationship.
Click to expand...
I've seen good arrangements between a non-builder owner and a "free-lance" or part time A&P that isn't employed by a maintenance shop. This individual won't be constricted by shop policy and may be more amenable to working with an owner, probably in the owner's hangar.
 
JonJay said:
And they vary on what they will let you do and what they want to see. Some won’t do owners assist at all. Find one that works the way you want and build a relationship.
Click to expand...

Yeah, aware that at least one around here probably would not sign off.

My plan has been to go to AP school starting this August. Married life and travel plans might be easier if I did not. I'm trying to weigh how easily I can do routine maintenance without school while keeping things easy for a CI. No private hangar at present, perhaps in the next year.
 
JonJay said:
Vic Syracuse has an RV specific maintenance book available on Vans website. I don’t have it as my experience predates any published material, but am told it is very good .if I was just getting started, I would get this book.
Click to expand...
Thanks, have it.
 
RNB said:
What if I buy? That is the question.
Click to expand...
I bought mine. Luckily, I ended up in very close proximity to the builder. He came out last year, and will again this year, for the CI. The AP on my field also informed me he'd be perfectly fine with an owner assisted annual. I did most of the annual last year, it was a journey to say the least.
 
I'n an owner - non-builder. I've also shared before that I am mechanically inept.

So - My condition inspection is pretty much like it was when I flew certificated.
Step 1 - Drop it off
Step 2 - Pray
Step 3 - Pay

The great news is that step 3 is far less painful than when I was flying the C177RG
 
Sam Buchanan said:
I've seen good arrangements between a non-builder owner and a "free-lance" or part time A&P that isn't employed by a maintenance shop. This individual won't be constricted by shop policy and may be more amenable to working with an owner, probably in the owner's hangar.
Click to expand...
Find the right A&P to work with you.

I typically want the owner to help as much as he can. I do not mind teaching and explaining as I go. Typically the owner assisted "condition inspection" that I do will cost less than one that I do all by myself. Most of the time the owner is reducing the time I spend with the airplane and that will reduce my time / bill.
 
RNB said:
I'm starting AP school in a couple months but had not realized that in the experimental world the owner can perform all work. AP or IA or holder of repairman certificate required only for the condition inspection.
Click to expand...
This chart helps explain who can do what to what:

1719351148508.png
 
RNB said:
How involved are you in your annuals? Who does them? How much does it cost?
I'm starting AP school in a couple months but had not realized that in the experimental world the owner can perform all work. AP or IA or holder of repairman certificate required only for the condition inspection.
Click to expand...

You will enjoy A&P. I finished up school last year and got my A&P. Learned a ton.

Definitely put the word out to find a local A&P that will even touch an Experimental. Second challenge is to find one who will let the owner participate.
These RV's are all hand built, with no maintenance or service manuals to follow. Lots of shops don't want to deal with that.

I tell clients that the inspection takes about 20 hours if you are doing it thoroughly. Maintenance items take more time.
 
My advice is to perform your CI as if it were an owner assisted annual. You can remove the interior, the cowling, and all the inspection covers. You can spray down the engine with brake cleaner and wipe off any oil.

The A&P will need to do a compression check, and inspect everything. The FAA requires annual inspections be conducted with a checklist. Even if that checklist is scribbled on the back of an envelope. You can look for guidance for what sorts of things are to be inspected at https://amroba.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Annual-Checklist.pdf
 
rockyfatcat said:
My advice is to perform your CI as if it were an owner assisted annual. You can remove the interior, the cowling, and all the inspection covers. You can spray down the engine with brake cleaner and wipe off any oil.

The A&P will need to do a compression check, and inspect everything. The FAA requires annual inspections be conducted with a checklist. Even if that checklist is scribbled on the back of an envelope. You can look for guidance for what sorts of things are to be inspected at https://amroba.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Annual-Checklist.pdf
Click to expand...
As far as I know, since it’s a condition inspection and not an annual the FAA does not require the use of a checklist although it’s highly recommended to use one. The only stipulation I’m aware of is the inspection has to be done in accordance with the scope and detail of part 43, Appendix D.
 
Last edited:
Auburntsts said:
As far as I know, since it’s a condition inspection and not an annual the FAA does not require the use of a checklist although it’s highly recommended to use one. The only stipulation I’m aware of is the inspection has to be done in accordance with the scope and detail of part 43, Appendix D.
Click to expand...

Todd, Part 43 Appendix D itself contains a checklist. And our operating limitations requires the condition inspection be done in accordance with scope and detail of appendix D. So, you must use one.

You can read Part 43 Appendix D here

Any checklist you use must at a minimum be as detailed as the one presented in the FAR itself.
 
Caveman said:
Todd, Part 43 Appendix D itself contains a checklist. And our operating limitations requires the condition inspection be done in accordance with scope and detail of appendix D. So, you must use one.

You can read Part 43 Appendix D here

Any checklist you use must at a minimum be as detailed as the one presented in the FAR itself.
Click to expand...
I see your point. i was being too narrow and literal in my definition of a checklist but concede that the inspection items listed in Appendix D can be construed as a checklist although in my experience regs tend to be the source for checklist development and not a checklist in and of themselves. In the end I think ultimately we are in agreement over what has to be accomplished to meet the scope and intent.
 
I just completed my first CI as a Rv6a owner/non builder. My local shop was more than happy to allow me to do 90% of the work. I'm not an AP, but have tons of experience with planes and various mechanical items. They basically did the compression and timing, and carefully looked over everything when I was done. Probably 2 hours of their time tops. I had an extensive list of things i wanted to accomplish in addition to the normal inspection items, so my time was about 6 full days. I also checked on all SB's applicable to my aircraft, and completed all of them. Next year's inspection should be much easier having gone through the aircraft so thoroughly this time. Best of luck with yours.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.