S

straight-n-level

I'm New Here
Hello, I?m new to this forum stuff, Wow, lots of good info. My question is I want to make the transition to an electronic ignition system. I have been sniffing around and looking at the different systems available for the experimental category. I have Slick mags now on my IO-360, and they seem to be working just fine. I?m curious on pro and cons of the the aftermarket electronic ignitions. I would just like to make a more educated decision on what to purchase, if I do. Looking for expertise or guidance with the different types to choose from?

Thanks for your insight,

T. Mitchell
Straight-n-Level
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forum and VAF. This is a great place to learn.

That being said, you really know how to open a can of worms on a first post! Just about everyone has an opinion and some are quite strong. I will tell you there are many threads on the various ignitions, and you can probably learn a lot by searching and reading all that has gone before.

I am sure you will get various opinions on any system you can mention. I chose the E-mag/P-mag combo and am happier than I was with Slicks. Others will not feel this way (of course they are wrong, but I won't mention it so as not to offend anyone.) I burn less fuel, get more power and speed and have a much smoother idling engine.

Whatever you do, consider EI as an alternative, but one that may take more of your time and require a bit more maintenance. Get all the facts before committing and you will probably end up happy. Good luck.

Bob Kelly
 
If you go with regular mags, you'll be told that you'll crash and die, but you'll do so cheaply. If you go with EI, you'll still be told that you'll crash and die, but it will be because you didn't stick with old-school mags.

Opinions are varied and strong, and only a very few are rooted in logic. Do your homework, make a decision for the right reasons, and be prepared to arm yourself in defense of your decision.

Me - I'm planning on one Plasma III (crank sensor) and one Bendix mag. And no, I'm not going to get into a debate as to why, or why not. I made my decision based on logic and I don't feel the need to defend it.
 
Last edited:
Pmags are fixed..We think

I have one Emag and one Pmag..Have not heard of a single problem with them since the upgrades have been made..Providing they have been installed correctly!!!!

Ok now to more education.

1) Mags..Work fine but their timing is fixed at 25 deg BTDC..This leads to both hard starting and less than ideal fuel consumption. The good thing is that they are not dependant on an electrical supply..But then again with modern alternators and wiring techniques this is a very minor advantage. Mags do have wearing parts that have to be replaced evry so often.

2) EI's are great because most of them adjust their timing..Both Lightspeed and e/Pmags start at TDC and move to max advance at high altitude and low power. This leads to about 10% improvement in fuel economy but they are electrically dependant..But really that is no biggie... P mags are also self powering which gets around that issue anyway.

A lot of builders run one EI and one mag to avoid being electrically dependant..two EI's is slightly more efficient but not by much


There you go!

Frank 7a
 
E & P-mags are the way to go!

Asking this question is like asking which car or truck is best.

And like a certain anatomical part, everyone has an opinion on the subject.

One of the new players in this field is E-Mag Ignitions. Like any new technology, they have had some teething issues, which we feel they have put behind them.

The company has been wide open about the issues and has been forthcoming to resolve them. Do a search on this forum for "P-mag" and you get an earful. Unfortunately you will also hear a bunch of BS, like the comment above telling you to run from them.

The good news is they have solved the problems and anyone who has been diligent about sending their units in for the FREE upgrades when they are announced has not had problems.

Even better is we are close to releasing a cockpit mounted control unit / monitor for both E & P-mags. We have been bench testing our units for a few months and expect to start test flying them when we return from SnF. You can read all about the EI Commander here.

PS. Welcome to the VAF forum!
 
Last edited:
frankh said:
I have one Emag and one Pmag..Have not heard of a single problem with them since the upgrades have been made..Providing they have been installed correctly!!!!

Ok now to more education.

1) Mags..Work fine but their timing is fixed at 25 deg BTDC..This leads to both hard starting and less than ideal fuel consumption. The good thing is that they are not dependant on an electrical supply..But then again with modern alternators and wiring techniques this is a very minor advantage. Mags do have wearing parts that have to be replaced evry so often.

2) EI's are great because most of them adjust their timing..Both Lightspeed and e/Pmags start at TDC and move to max advance at high altitude and low power. This leads to about 10% improvement in fuel economy but they are electrically dependant..But really that is no biggie... P mags are also self powering which gets around that issue anyway.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify. While mags are fixed at 25 deg BTDC there is either a shower of sparks or impulse coupling that retards the spark to 0 BTDC for starting. Just a point of reference, my 360-A1A starts just as easy on the mag as it does the EI.

I'm running Jeff Rose's ElectroAir on the right and slick on the left both firing 37BY's
 
PMAG

Like everyone has already said, opinions are stong on this issue. I have two years and 525 hours on an RV7a with an IO360 with two PMAGs. It has been a great decision for me, and I would do it again. We are on our way to Sun and Fun with a stop in Gulf Shores the last two days. The fuel burn has been great running LOP. MPG around 25-27.
 
I have over 2000 houirs in an RV with and without an EI. Bottom line is if you plan on flying a lot at over 8-10,000 feet the EI will benifit you in increased mileage and small speed increase. Below 8000 or so forget it. There are lots of options out there, the majority seems to be one lightspeed and one stock mag..
YMMV
Tom
RV3 x 2
1600 + hours on 1 lightspeed/1 slick mag.
 
Aircraft Ignitions Spoken Here

Hello,
There are choices for aircraft ignition systems, I agree with Bill, what?s the best car or truck to buy. What will be best for your application and installation? At this time, information and experience from others is your best resource. As the owner of Generation 3 Ignition systems, I would like to invite you and all others to contact us or stop by our booth #1148 bldg. (A) @ AirVenture 09 this year. We will have our G3i ignition system products running on an interactive magneto drive simulator. Displaying all the different starting and operational modes, redundancy, multiple discharge, timing, and magneto modifications/ inspections, magnetos with electronics and without. A lot of good information will be provided. We are looking forward to seeing you and being @ AirVenture 2009.

Sincerely,
Thomas Shpakow
www.g3ignition.com
 
All of the above and a bit more.

E/Pmags live in the engine area and are exposed to more heat. They say they have the bugs worked out, but we still hear of occasional failures.

Lightspeed has also had reports of failures, more often with the III than the II (almost never) model. Most of these failures seem to have been heat related (and some of these failures were in installations where the unit was forward of the firewall). A couple of failures were reported due to the D-sub connector, so mounting away from vibration and having good strain relief should be carefully considered when installing.

Mags also routinely fail. They, too, live in the engine compartment.

In general then, heat seems to be "guilty by association" as the biggest reported cause of problems. If you mount your unit with good cooling, perhaps even a dedicated vent line, you should have trouble-free performance.

FWIW, I have had a Lightspeed II (previous plane) and Lightspeed III (current plane) both mounted aft of the firewall and never a problem. I don't think it is necessary to spend the extra $1000 to have dual electronics, and subscribe to the belt-and-suspenders theory of both redundant and different types of ignition.
 
Precision Eagle EMS

I just ordered an IO-375 from Aero Sport Power with the Precision Eagle EMS system. The feature just as important or more so than the electronic ignition is the automatic mixture control. I have no buyers regret and look forward to flying it and seeing how it works out. Check it out at precisionairmotive.com.

Jay Erickson, RV-6A complete, RV-7A fuselage
 
Last edited:
E-Ignition

Well T
Mags have been around a long time and have a known track record, LSE has been around a long time too I have 1 of both ( I have been around a long time too) FI Hot starts are easy on the LSE and I go 5mph faster than with the Mag. I Like it
Peter RV6 IO360B1B CS Inv system

straight-n-level said:
Hello, I?m new to this forum stuff, Wow, lots of good info. My question is I want to make the transition to an electronic ignition system. I have been sniffing around and looking at the different systems available for the experimental category. I have Slick mags now on my IO-360, and they seem to be working just fine. I?m curious on pro and cons of the the aftermarket electronic ignitions. I would just like to make a more educated decision on what to purchase, if I do. Looking for expertise or guidance with the different types to choose from?

Thanks for your insight,

T. Mitchell
Straight-n-Level
Click to expand...
 
1 mag, definitely.

I like Lightspeed for it's better track record. I've worked on MANY aircraft with the Jeff Rose EI, but I don't think it's available anymore.

I like the way the G3i system is put together, but I'm STILL not quite sure I understand how the variable advance works with points still in the system.

I think if I was shopping for a new system right now, it'd be two bendix mags with the G3i or a single impluse Bendix with the Plasma II. There are a lot of people around here that are running e/pmags, but I don't know many airplane mechanics that would go with them given the track record, and the general propensity for stuff to go wrong... that says something... us mechanic pick up on these things after a while.
 
Thanks for the good info.

Wow, A person could write a book on this topic. Thank you for all the insight and your experiences with the different types of electronic ignition systems. This information from the end user is great. I got a little info. /sensory over loaded, but I?m ok. I have been reading up more on the different ignition system web sights also. I like how some systems offer the option of the auto spark plug conversion. Looks like this is common with most of the systems and a good way to go. They all seem to advance the timing. I?m not really clear on why and when with such a small rpm operating window. Is it certain throttle settings, under take-off for more power? I do understand most of the reasoning though from being involved with automobile repair/technology. Here it is mostly for its fuel economy and drivability, stop and go. Thank you all, and I really appreciate all this information to help me make an educated choice.

Sincerely,

T. Mitchell
 
One unit not mentioned much here is the Jeff Rose EI. I had one with a mag in a previous airplane 10 years ago and it is still working today although the mag hole timing device had to be replaced a couple times.

The system is still available

http://www.electroair.net/

and can be purchased from numerous retailers including Aircraft Spruce.

Interesting in that the EI ignition fire time has been similar to what the Plasma III does, since day one.

The only down side to EI is a minimum of 8 volts required to start and operate. I busted on starter ring on account of that limitation, the unit loses its brain at less than 8 volts but that supposedly is not a problem if one uses a wire wound starter like B&C. Lightspeed reduced their operating voltage to 6 and cured the same problem with Plasma I.
 
Last edited:
David-aviator said:
...The only down side to EI is a minimum of 8 volts required to start and operate...
Click to expand...
True, that's why the P-mags are self powered should you lose your electrical system.

Also, if you leave your master on overnight, you can connect a 9 volt battery to one P-mag and hand prop your plane.

I've come up with a very simple schematic using a stereo plug to isolate one p-mag from the ship's buss and let me plug in a 9 volt battery from the pilot's seat for just such occasions. Once the RPM?s are above 800 or so, they are self powering and the 9 volt battery can be unplugged.

Ultimately it is your plane and your butt up there and you have to be comfortable flying behind whatever ignition you select.

Just be careful as there is a lot of BS out there and there have already been some negative posts on this thread from people who have no first hand knowledge of what they are talking about.

PS. Over 220 trouble free P-MAG hours!

PPS. Yes, running auto plugs with aftermarket EI is very common. In fact, most people use regular automotive plug wires w/o and radio interference issues.
 
So ignition is only about feelings and subjective preferences mixed with 50 hrs experience? maybe so, but it is possible to take a more engineering approach to this.

Mechanical ignition is mechanical (surprisingly :) ). It consists of moving parts that sooner or later will fail. How will they fail and when will they fail ? The failure modes of a mag are so that any failure in one mag will be covered by a working second. By installing two mags, you have true redundancy for any failure. Maintenence and testing for every engine startup makes this setup close to foolproof system (High MTTF).

EI is better due to varying timing and better sparks. More HP and better fuel consumption. But what about failure modes? Just about all failure modes for the mechanical system is completely removed in the elecrical system, but you have added many new ones. Some modes are in the EI itself while other are in the electrical power distribution/generation. Will redundancy improve MTTF for EI? Probably not! One failure mode that is added is too advanced timing. Redundancy will not improve this, it will only make it worse - 2 times worse to be exact.

All in all. Performance vise, EI is better than mag. Safety vise, mag is better than EI, and one single EI is probably better than two EIs (unless a rather sophisticated system is installed to monitor the EIs). From an engineering point of view, one mag and one EI will give you combined performance and safety that is unmatched with pure EI or pure mag, but again assuming no sophisticated monitoring system is installed.
 
SvingenB said:
...From an engineering point of view, one mag and one EI will give you combined performance and safety that is unmatched with pure EI or pure mag, but again assuming no sophisticated monitoring system is installed.
Click to expand...
Educate me please? Why is this so? If you have two independent EI's with independent power sources, I don't see the risks as being any higher than running duel mags or one mag and one EI. If either on fails, you will get home on the other.

I am yet to read about a duel EI failure (or E/P-mag failure) tha couldn't have been mitigated by isolating the offending mag. The is excluding issues where they were not wired correctly or someone with duel Lightspeeds and one power source, and those type of installation issues.

In this regard, running duel EI's is no different than running duel mags.
 
I didn't realize the the Jeff Rose/Electroair EI was still available (I did mention it tho!). I've seen this particular setup run with 0 problems on 20+ year old airplanes with a single slick or bendix backing it up. I really like that about it.

I personally don't seen the advantage of running auto plugs, and see many disadvantages. People say they are cheaper, which is true initially, but I've never seen anyone run autos for 1000+ hours like we regularly run the massives. If you replace the autos every 200 hours, the cost start to even out, and aircraft plugs were designed for aircraft, and have a lot better quality control. Heat ranges are also a known factor with the Aero plugs.

For those that would call recommending NOT running dual pmags ignorant... i'm sorry, but I just don't have a stomach for the type of failures they can (and have) produced. I'll take a mag failure any day over a timing advance event. Run one pmag if you want, no problem... but what is the logic of running two? Doesn't really help mileage...
 
Dual P-MAGs

I recently bought dual P-MAGs for both my RV-4 & RV-3. My research & evidence convinced me of their value over other considerations. I got 1 installed on the RV-4 this afternoon and will report more later when I've fired it up. The -3's engine is a bunch of new & or yellow tagged, overhauled parts awaiting reassembly; and I'll report on how the dual P-MAGs work with it after reassembly.

Years ago, I had a VariEze with one Jeff Rose electronic ignition running with auto plugs. It was rock solid dependable - no rpm drop during run-up when it was firing the plugs.

Barney in Memphis @ M01
 
Last edited:
I notice a few people mention "timing advance" failure modes.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening with a Lightspeed unit? I have not, unless perhaps using the Hall Effect sensor and not securing it (allowing it to rotate, which could also happen with a Mag).

Having said this, a Mag CAN rotate if not fully secured, so saying that this type of failure is not possible with a Mag is incorrect.
 
A good point....

Bottom line is if you plan on flying a lot at over 8-10,000 feet the EI will benifit you in increased mileage and small speed increase. Below 8000 or so forget it.

This is a VERY good point.

Meanwhile, this debate is somewhat akin to a debate that could've been had several years ago re EFIS vs steam flight gauges. We now see that gauges are going away, and so will traditional magnetos eventually
 
breister said:
I notice a few people mention "timing advance" failure modes.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening with a Lightspeed unit? I have not, unless perhaps using the Hall Effect sensor and not securing it (allowing it to rotate, which could also happen with a Mag).

Having said this, a Mag CAN rotate if not fully secured, so saying that this type of failure is not possible with a Mag is incorrect.
Click to expand...

I have heard that there were failures of lightspeed units, but they haven't been highlighted on here as much, so I don't know what the failure mode is.

If you make that mistake with a mag... well... you shouldn't be working on airplanes.
 
Timing Event

breister said:
I notice a few people mention "timing advance" failure modes.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening with a Lightspeed unit? I have not, unless perhaps using the Hall Effect sensor and not securing it (allowing it to rotate, which could also happen with a Mag).

Having said this, a Mag CAN rotate if not fully secured, so saying that this type of failure is not possible with a Mag is incorrect.
Click to expand...

Yesterday, I stumbled on a web site where the author (Marc Zeitlin) has had two "timing event" issues with the EMagAir products. This fellow is a mechanical engineer and this link is well written and informative. A "timing event" is where an EI loses control of the variable spark timing. If the timing gets advanced to far, it can damage the engine. See

http://www.cozybuilders.org/Emagair_Warning/

After reading the above post, I created a new thread, asking about what the latest version of the various brands of EI are. No responses to it so far. See

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=42475

ElectroAir has an optional display and switch for the instrument panel. The display allows the pilot to monitor the timing advance. The switch allows the pilot to "defeat" the variable timing. Flipping this switch causes the EI to revert to a fixed 25 degrees BTDC, like a magneto. I think I read somewhere that Lightspeed offers this option, too?? :confused:

The early ElectroAir units (aka Jeff Rose) had a problem with the wire breaking inside the insulation of the harness at the timing pick up coil. ElectroAir upgraded this part to cure the problem. I suspect that often, broken wire issues are really poor workmanship issues, on the part of the builder. If the wiring harness is not properly supported or routed, wires will break, due to engine movement.

Charlie Kuss
 
New owner at ElectroAir

osxuser said:
I didn't realize the the Jeff Rose/Electroair EI was still available (I did mention it tho!). I've seen this particular setup run with 0 problems on 20+ year old airplanes with a single slick or bendix backing it up. I really like that about it.

snipped...
Click to expand...

Jeff sold the company a few years ago. The new owner has even upgraded the product.
Charlie Kuss
 
Dual P-MAGs

Dual P-MAGs installed on my RV-4, O-360 yesterday;started on the first blade & ran like a top. Minor problem: no tach - tack is a JPI Model 400000, and registers 2x rpm. Brad Dement is busy at Sun & Fun and the JPI guys didn't know what to do.

Anyone installed P-MAGs with a JPI slimline tach -- and how did you get the tach right?

Thanks,
Barney in Memphis @ M01

EDITED @ 8:55PM ElvisTime: Found that P-MAG default is two pulses per rev for tach, and JPI needs just one pulse; so, rpm was reading double what it actually was. I'll have to download a program from Emagair, and use a laptop to change the internal setting in the P-MAG so that it just emits one pulse.
 
Last edited:
osxuser said:
I have heard that there were failures of lightspeed units, but they haven't been highlighted on here as much, so I don't know what the failure mode is.
Click to expand...

The two failure modes I have heard reported for Lightspeeds were over heating (usually the Plasma III units, not sure if the IIs ever had that problem) and a few incidents of the connector "failing." Neither of these will cause you to lose power if you have a working mag as backup.

Since I am flying with a Lightspeed, I do have concerns if timing advance CAN happen with these units. I haven't heard of such an issue yet - my understanding is that if voltage falls to low the unit shuts itself off.

But, I don't KNOW this...

If you make that mistake with a mag... well... you shouldn't be working on airplanes.
Click to expand...

Sorry, should have added a smiley-face...

:D

Yet, I should mention that I DID have an incident where a mag installed by an A&P did vibrate loose a little. It retarded, so no damage but even the best guys can make a mistaeky.
 
breister said:
Sorry, should have added a smiley-face...

:D

Yet, I should mention that I DID have an incident where a mag installed by an A&P did vibrate loose a little. It retarded, so no damage but even the best guys can make a mistaeky.
Click to expand...

We all make mistakes, but there are things that you double and triple check, and this is one of them. I'm deadly serious when I say that this mistake should NEVER be made.
 
just my opinion

I for old fashion mags. I can carry a spare overhaul kit and the tools necessary to time and install in a small tool box. It is nice to read the increase performance everyone is getting with e-ignition, maybe I will change my mind once the time comes to buy that 0540 for my fiuture RV10. Nice thread.

Johny stick
RV10 wannabe
 
N941WR said:
Educate me please? Why is this so? If you have two independent EI's with independent power sources, I don't see the risks as being any higher than running duel mags or one mag and one EI. If either on fails, you will get home on the other.

I am yet to read about a duel EI failure (or E/P-mag failure) tha couldn't have been mitigated by isolating the offending mag. The is excluding issues where they were not wired correctly or someone with duel Lightspeeds and one power source, and those type of installation issues.

In this regard, running duel EI's is no different than running duel mags.
Click to expand...

It is oranges and apples. Two mags is a true redundant system. Any failure in one mag is covered by the other while both are running. Two EIs is not like this because there are failure modes that cannot be covered by the other, like for instance too advanced timing. To make a redundant system, 3 EIs are needed and yet more functionality to automatically filter out a faulty EI.

But, as you say, having two EIs enables backup functionality. However, for this backup functionality to work, some kind of monitoring is needed, a fault has to be reckognized and dealth with by switching of the faulty one. The only reason to have EI is better performance compared with mags, but this can be achieved by one single EI. Having two EIs will double the probability of too advanced timing, it will make the failure mode, that has to be manually monitored and dealth with, come twice as often. This is a basic system design flaw. By having one EI and one mag, the performance increase is there, and the backup system is free of all failure modes of the ?main? system. You don't want to have a backup system with the failure mode that is the very reason you have a backup functionality instead of true redundancy. In my opinion there is no logic in this.
 
SvingenB said:
....By having one EI and one mag, the performance increase is there, and the backup system is free of all failure modes of the ?main? system. You don't want to have a backup system with the failure mode that is the very reason you have a backup functionality instead of true redundancy. In my opinion there is no logic in this.
Click to expand...

Mostly true, but in my experience, not completely so. With one EI/one mag I: 1) gained most of my fuel savings. 2) gained a slight performance increase. 3) had much easier starting. When I added the second EI, I: 1) gained a slight fuel savings. 2) gained a significant performance increase. 3) had MUCH smoother idle. I understand points one and three but don't really understand why the majority of the performance increase came when I added the second EI.

Bob Kelly
 
SvingenB said:
It is oranges and apples. Two mags is a true redundant system. Any failure in one mag is covered by the other while both are running. Two EIs is not like this because there are failure modes that cannot be covered by the other, like for instance too advanced timing. To make a redundant system, 3 EIs are needed and yet more functionality to automatically filter out a faulty EI.

But, as you say, having two EIs enables backup functionality. However, for this backup functionality to work, some kind of monitoring is needed, a fault has to be reckognized and dealth with by switching of the faulty one. The only reason to have EI is better performance compared with mags, but this can be achieved by one single EI. Having two EIs will double the probability of too advanced timing, it will make the failure mode, that has to be manually monitored and dealth with, come twice as often. This is a basic system design flaw. By having one EI and one mag, the performance increase is there, and the backup system is free of all failure modes of the ?main? system. You don't want to have a backup system with the failure mode that is the very reason you have a backup functionality instead of true redundancy. In my opinion there is no logic in this.
Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense to me. I just installed two PMags, but now wish I had done a PMag and a traditional mag. If anyone is interest in trading a new PMag (installed, but never flown) for a traditional mag of similar condition, I would be interested in talking...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.