gmcjetpilot

gmcjetpilot

Well Known Member
This is a 44 second video of an ultra light. The most interesting thing happens in the last 4 seconds of the video.

http://www.killsometime.com/video/video.asp?ID=382

What made an impression on me was when the engine quit it stopped flying, fast. What I thought of is mental preparedness.

Lesson I am reminded of is altitude and speed is life. When flying low to the ground (takeoff , landing or strafing) when the fan stops turning you will be landing soon. The more altitude you have the more........................

Flying low can be fun , a pet sin most of us have done, but it can be very hazardous.

In RV's we climb at a fairly high deck angle. The delta pitch from full power climb to engine out nose low decent is dramatic, so be ready to lower the nose quickly if the engine stops. Before every departure have an engine out plan rehearsed in your mind whether you say it out loud or not. Be ready to lower the nose, fly the plane to the ground, don't stall and take what is coming directly ahead or slightly off to one side. CFI hat off :D

George

Also flying low over trees is may be not a great idea. Just for fun
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1131880548/Extremely_low_altitude_flying
http://www.leenks.com/link28690.htm
 
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I've never flown an ultralight so I don't know how they handle, but is it SOP to pull back on the elevator as hard as possible when your engine dies? Maybe they don't have enough authority to stall at that slow of a speed? I dunno...
 
when the trees are in your face....

I wonder if he just reacted reflexively to the trees rushing up to meet him. I wonder how many of us would react the same way under the circumstances :-(.

On the other hand, maybe he had excess airspeed that he was trying to burn to slow his decent rate.

Yeah, that's it....

John
 
What happens..........

It appears that it was a "natural" thing to do, pul up. Best was to not fly behind a 2 stroke engine, ULs are supposed to have the ability to g\"glide" on back to terra firma. I guess it may not be so.
 
John_RV4 said:
I wonder if he just reacted reflexively to the trees rushing up to meet him. I wonder how many of us would react the same way under the circumstances :-(.

On the other hand, maybe he had excess airspeed that he was trying to burn to slow his decent rate.

Yeah, that's it....

John
Click to expand...

Actually, it was a serious question. I've flown some model aircraft where the best thing to do to get it back in one piece if you where going down into trees, or something, was to haul back on the elevator. It wouldn't stall....it'd just kinda' slow down and mush forward.
 
He did a great job mounting that camera. Flying the plane? Not so much.

I've never flown ULs but I've been told they tend to glide like a toolbox. I always figured that was why so many of them had balistic chutes.
 
No Inertia

RVs don't glide well but they are very different to the aircraft in the video.
That aircraft type is all thrust and drag and no weight, so when the fan stops there is no inertia to keep it going. It will behave like a parachute being dragged through the air would if the thrust failed.

But George is right. In an RV you still need to get the nose down quickly to maintain a good airspeed.
Pete.
 
he did his best I think

After watching this clip several times I think this guy did all he could do based on how high he was. He first tried a left turn to the road until he saw he was sinking to fast...then he leveled out to pan cake into the trees...he basically pulled back on the stick just before he hit the trees. This was basically his flare to a crash....I would have done the same just before I hit the trees!

That kind of sink rate is what you get with a high drag light plane for sure...kinda like when I was a kid and jumped off the roof with a large beach umbrella :eek: only I did not have a camera viewing my "landing".

Hopefully the guy survived the bush wacking.

Jon
 
Good stuff

Thanks for the input, all good comments,

but my comment or point is flying low gives you little time in any plane. So be mentally prepared to land in short order during takeoffs or landings if the engine quits. I agree he pulled back in the last few second to "flare" into the trees. However many people loose control or stall their plane during an engine out for many reasons, but they are usually preventable from a mind set (prepared), skill and practice.

The one case that came to mind was a guy who lost his power on takeoff (in a RV) and did not dump nose down quick enough; he pancaked in. The damage to the plane looked nominal but unfortunately the pilots injuries where fatal. If he would have pushed the nose down and flown to the ground he may(?) have survived. That was the intent of the initial post, be ready to lower the nose and take what is coming, stalling is usually a bad news, unless you are just about to down (or crash into trees).

Practice:

Go up to 3000 agl; establish a full power climb at Vx; at 500 feet above your start altitude chop power to idle and do nothing; hold the stick steady for a few seconds; recover from sink or stall.

>How long does it take to stall? (seconds)
>How much altitude did you loose to recover (with out power) to 100 mph?
>What is your sink rate when you first recover?

Do it again; this time lower the nose immediately and "fly back" to the starting altitude and flair to zero sink (no power).

>How many seconds did the whole thing take, from power loss to flair at base altitude?

What I know is it'll happen fast. Also the pitch-up to pitch-down attitude may be more than you think, to get best-glide speed with min altitude loss.

Again very good observations I did not notice myself. George
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
That was the intent of the initial post, be ready to lower the nose and take what is coming, stalling is usually a bad news, unless you are just about to down (or crash into trees).
Click to expand...

Yes, the "very last second" stall can be a good thing! Last winter, within eye sight of my home, we had an out of state pilot unfamiliar with this area, flying a Cessna 310 parallel to a 12,000' mountain range, when he decided a fuel stop was in order due to headwinds.

Using a gps, he descended towards the airport, not knowing that some scattered clouds were actually hiding a 6000' mountain that juts out 90 degrees to the other.

When terrrain suddenly filled the windscreen, the pilot pushed both throttles full forward, and with no other choice, hauled back on the yoke. He heard the stall horn just as the Cessna hit the terrain in a nose high attitude. In this case, the stall dissipated the forward speed to the point, that the 310 caught a wingtip & then flipped over in one piece on a 45 degree upslope, approx. 300' above a subdivision. The aircraft, although beat up, still remained pretty much intact, and the pilot and passenger escaped with just a few scratches.

Moral of this story ------- get a GPS with terrain features and terrain warning, just in case! :)
 
cessna pancake...

I can tell you this...if I am flying in an unknown area I ALWAYS have a sectional for that area. If I had to land going through IMC I would first consult that map to make sure there were no mountains around the airport I intended to land at. I would determine what approach heading etc. I needed so that I would stay clear of the ground until I was ready to say hello to it :) A GPS is good but it must be used with thought.

Anyway I agree with GMC...I fly high most of the time. I have done a bit of low flying when I am in areas where I could land just about anywhere safely (wheat fields and flat desert). That is fun stuff...I just don't do it that much.

Jon
 
I have about 600 hours in UL's and learned a lot about the fan stopping. Yes, it is true that the prop is there to keep the pilot cool, although low altitude gives you little time to sweat.
Most UL's glide about like a Tri-Pacer. My first engine-out was at about 200 feet, over open ground. I NEVER flew low over trees. The landing had a pretty high pucker factor, but no damage. I pushed forward and did most of the things you are supposed to do. The take off (with a rebuilt engine) was actually more memorable as there was a bull in the pasture.
Second engine off was practicing aerobatics, just on the downhill side of a loop. No big deal as I had plenty of altitude. The third and last was also uneventful. THEN I learned how to properly jet a 2 stroke. 500 more hours with no problems. The old Phantom UL was stresses for +6, -4 g.
Actually, my first engine out was in a sailplane. A cable break on a winch launch. That's where I learned the value of push over; it had really been drilled into me as the climb out is very steep. My instructor was in the back seat eating lunch and it all came raining off the canopy after we leveled out.
All this seems to point to three things; airspeed, airspeed, airspeed. 4:1 or 36:1 makes little difference. If you get the nose down you have a chance, if not, you are in trouble.

Bob Kelly, 9A in final assembly/paint
 
My first engine out (I've had three) happened while practicing full-flap 'go-around' stalls for my commercial test. The acft was a 1956 C-172 and with full power and full flaps, that thing would stand on its tail. That was the configuration when the engine blew one cyclinder apart. The recovery was something to which I owed my aerobatic experience and excellent instruction. We seemed weightless and witless for a loooong time and I just reacted as trained. Nose over, power back, flaps (manual- loved them!) off, trim for best glide, etc.,

WFortunately, we had enough altitude to glide back to the field. That's always been my fav. C-172 model.. ;)
 
Wow

I sold ULs in the early 80s and when the engine quits you are going to land in the spot that you see between your feet. Any more I won't fly with a 2 stroke either in front or in the rear, I also sold snowmobiles and these are the same engines that they have adapted to flight. NOT GOOD. These engines, while have been improved are still prone to sudden catastrophic failure, as you just seen.
It's rather odd to think he was having a blast just a few seconds earlier and now was suddenly turned into a hedge trimer.

Harvey L.
 
The rest of the story....

Several months ago this video was posted with some speculation about what happened. Just thought some of you might want to know what actually happened. For the record, I think he may have had enough fuel in the air filter to get as far as he did.

Watch the video link down below for the damage report.

Had to post it in two reply boxes , sorry Doug...

Marty Lunsford's Crash
Background information from Marty (sent to one of the Yahoo groups):

From: Marty Lunsford
Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 11:05 pm
Subject: I just flew my MX for the first time today...

... and I'm a little scared to fly it again. I have about 100 hours in Cessnas, and I figured that an MX would be pretty easy to fly. I bought a used one and took it to the airport for the first time today. I spent 30 minutes taxiing it, gradually going faster and faster. Eventually I was lifting the nosewheel off the ground and doing high speed (18 mph) taxiing on the main gear. Then I figured I'd do a "crow hop". My intention was to never get more than 2 feet off of the ground, but within a couple of seconds I was 40 feet up in the air with the stick almost fully forward. I coaxed it back down to the ground, and since I still had 3500 feet of runway left, I did it again, only this time I managed to keep the plane no higher than ten feet.

I spent another 45 minutes doing these "crow hops", and on my final one, I felt comfortable enough to take it around the pattern. Once I was up around 400 feet (I'm guessing, because I don't have an altimeter) I turned left and felt like I was using almost full RIGHT spoiler to keep the plane from rolling over to the left. In hindsight, I realize that with all of that dihedral in the wings, any rudder is going to cause the plane to bank pretty hard. It just felt like an uncoordinated turn, though, and I had to use a lot of right spoiler to keep the plane "feeling correct" in the left turn.

The downwind leg was pretty cool. I had a much better view of the terrain than I normally do in a Cessna, and I was starting to learn that the MX really steers with the rudder; unlike a 172 where you bank the plane to turn, and just use the rudder to keep from slipping. It was 11:00 AM by this time, and the wind was calm on the ground, but I could feel the thermals starting when I was on the downwind leg. It seemed hard to keep the thing going straight. The spoilers seemed ineffective, and the rudder made the plane want to bank. I felt very uncomfortable turning base and then final to land.

On a positive note, I put the plane down exactly where I wanted-- about 200 feet past the numbers. The descent angle seemed very steep, but the guy I bought the plane from told me to expect that, so I wasn't surprised.

Anyway... I have some questions: Is this experience typical for a GA pilot flying an ultralight for the first time? Does my description of the way my plane was flying sound normal to you guys? I had to use a lot of forward stick to keep the plane flying level. Does it sound like I have a CG issue? I have the seat mounted in the back position and I weigh about 170. I was going to go flying again tomorrow, but I'm a little scared right now. I'm thinking about bringing the plane home and adding some weight to the nose.

Ya'lls input is greatly appreciated.

Marty's explanation of the crash:

On Saturday, August 27th 2005 I took my Quicksilver MX to the Raleigh (NC) East airport to do a little flying. On previous flights I had noticed that the engine was only developing about 5700 RPMs at full power. It should be hitting about 6200 RPMs, so a friend of mine, who is familiar with 2 stroke engines and carbs, met me at the airport to see if we could tweak the engine a little.

When I first pulled the plane out of the trailer, I noticed that I had left the fuel valve on after the previous flight. As a result, the air filter was saturated with fuel and oil, and it was even dripping off of the filter. After assembling the plane we tried to start the engine. It normally only takes a few pulls to get the engine going, but this time it took several minutes. We turned off the fuel valve, opened the choke, and opened the throttle to pull lots of air through the engine. Eventually it caught, and we let it run at about 2500 RPMs for a few minutes to warm up.
 
The rest of the story....

After the engine had warmed up, we ran it up to mid range, and then full throttle to check the RPMs. It was still only hitting about 5700, so we throttled back to idle and I went to get the Cuyuna manual while my friend held the plane. We looked at the diagram of the carburetor in the book, and after a minute or two, realized that the carb on my plane was slightly different from the carb in my book. Realizing that we weren't going to be able to make any adjustments right then, I decided to just go fly a little.

Here is where the memories of my friend and I break down. We think we had turned the fuel valve at the bottom of the fuel tank back on, but we're not really sure. I had already done my preflight and walkaround, so I didn't check the valve immediately before taxiing out to the runway. The video shows the outcome of the flight.

I was taken away by ambulance, and the next day a couple of friends went back out to the airport to put the wreckage back into the trailer and take it to my house. I asked them to check the fuel valve to see if it was on or off. When they got to the airport, the fuel valve was OFF, but the fuel filter, which is located between the tank and the carb, was full of fuel (it has a clear cover). We don't know how long the engine will run with the valve in the off position, but I suppose it could idle for several minutes, just sipping on the fuel in the carb bowl and the filter.

However, we had the engine running at various power settings for approximately ten minutes before I actually took off. I don't think the engine could possibly run that long if the valve was off, so I'm assuming we turned it back on. But that is one of the "unknowns".

If we had turned the valve back on, then how did it get turned off before my friends picked up the plane the next day? Well, I crashed right next to an airport, and some of the people who came to rescue me were from the airport. It is possible that one of them had enough airplane smarts to realize that the fuel valve being "on" was a safety hazard. Maybe they turned it off shortly after my crash. That would make sense, since the valve was off, but the filter was full of fuel. Of course, all of this is just a guess.

My friends also told me that the prop turned freely, so the engine didn't seize. They tried to start it, but it would not start.

I have also been wondering about the engine kill switch. The previous owner of the plane told me to be careful of it because it was easy to kill the engine when grabbing ahold of the tube by the pilots head. Looking at the video, I clearly did not grab that tube until after the engine died, however, the switch might have some corrosion in it which caused it to short out, or the wire may have gotten pinched somewhere, and the vibration of the engine may have caused it to short out.

It will be several weeks before I have recovered enough to investigate what caused the engine failure. I'll update you when I have more info.

View the video of the crash here. (3.9Mb. ?2005, Marty Lunsford)
Things to notice in the video:

I had 2700 feet of paved runway in front of me, but I chose to make an immediate left turn after taking off. That was my biggest mistake.
When the engine failed, the plane almost immediately stalled. I was in a turn, and climbing at about 27mph (I remember looking at the ASI). I didn't push the nose over immediately, and since the plane was still at a climb attitude, the airspeed dropped below stall speed in less than a second.
There was very little distance between me and the trees, so even if I had managed to keep the plane from stalling, I still would have ended up in the trees.

It's hard to see on the video, but the plane is spun to the left by the trees. As I fell through the trees, the plane actually ended up going backwards slightly with the wings acting as "parachutes" The camera cuts out a fraction of a second before I hit the ground. If you pause the video on the last frame, you can see the road that I had just passed over. I did a 360 degree turn whle falling vertically through the trees.
Hope ya'll can learn something from this.

- Marty Lunsford
 
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FWIW

I have had two engine failures in the last year in an ultralight powered by a two stroke engine. In both engine off landings I came away unharmed. The first incident the airplane was not so lucky. I was only 300 feet agl and over a tree covered pond when the engine quit. I was able to glide the plane past the trees and over a neighbor's tool shed. The plane came down hard in a neighbor's yard and bounced across the road coming to rest in another neighbor's yard. The nosewheel folded under while the main gear did the splits. The belly stringers absorbed the majority of the impact as they buckled under but all of that served to protect me from any injuy. I was not injured because instead of pancaking the plane straight down in a stall I was able to shove the nose over just before impact as the plane was beginning to stall. This allowed me to maintain control of the airplane at impact and the force of the energy was absorbed in the belly stringers instead of my vertebrae.

A short ten months later the second engine out occurred. This was just 6 weeks ago. This time I landed in a pasture without any damage to the airplane. A very real difference I experienced with this engine failure was that the engine never stopped completely until I touched down on the ground. It was still running but only producing about 3000 rpm (take off is over 6000 rpm). This was not enough to allow the airplane to maintain altitude but it had a substantial effect on the glide slope of the airplane. Unlike the first engine failure that resulted in a total dead prop, this time the prop kept spinning. Even at a slow rpm the prop was able to provide enough thrust to keep the descent rate slow enough that I had enough time to make decisions in a much more calm manner than the first time.

I will tell you this from my experience. No matter what type of aircraft you are flying. If you do not PUSH THAT STICK FORWARD when the engine quits you will stall in a heart beat; you will come down much sooner than you can possibly even imagine; and you will not be in much of a position to control your fall. Fall is exactly what you will do. However, if you will PUSH THAT STICK FORWARD the plane will continue to fly with full controllable authority.

In the case of my plane (a Challenger II with Rotax 503), when that prop stops spinning it is going to come down very fast. The literature for my airplane claims a glide ratio of 9:1. Well let me say this, when you are flying lower than 1000 agl that glide ratio is not going to mean didly. You are not going to have enough time to think "OH ****!!", let alone go through a check list of emergency procedures. So you had better have a good idea of what your plane will do without power. Even more importantly than knowing what your plane will do, you had better know what you will do! Know what it is going to take to do what is necessary to get yourself on the ground safely. This should be done without giving much conscious thought to it because chances are you are not going to have enough time to think at all. You will have to react and react fast. Low and slow does not allow you enough time to develop strategies so everything you do had better be instinctive without thought.

This leads me to the issue of this particular gentleman's reaction. Having been in his shoes I am in no way going to pass judgement on his actions. He did what he thought was necessary to get down. He did come away from this incident alive. That does account for a lot considering his predicament. However, I will say that in watching him pull hard back on the stick I believe that his instinctive reaction was "going down, stick back to hold altitude". It is very difficult to not want to hold your altitude by increasing the angle of attack of the wing but without any thrust to push you forward this is only going to slow you down and increase the angle of attack of the wing. Which in turn brings you closer to the stall of the wing and, BAM! Down you go! The slower your plane is flying at inception of the engine out, the faster all of this will transpire.

I have had a passenger describe an incident that occurred when he went down in a GA airplane when the engine quit on takeoff. He described how the pilot pulled back on the stick and rolled ailerons opposite of the airplane's roll. This action did not have the intended effect and they found themselves falling faster and with no control heading for a spin. They ended up falling out of the sky directly on top of the roof of a house. When the airplane came to rest it was on fire and they were imbedded in the attic of the house. They were able to extricate themselves from the wreckage and the house but the fire burned the house to the ground.

The plane and simple fact of the matter is that there is only one way to avoid a stall or to get out of any stall once it starts. Whether you are two feet off of the ground or FL 1000, PUSH THAT STICK FORWARD! FLYING into the trees with the nose down will hurt far less than FALLING into them totally out of control. The longer you can stay in control of the airplane the better your chances are going to be. If you can maintain control all the way to a full stop then you deserve some very serious kudos!

My .02 worth. Live long and prosper! :D
 
RVbySDI said:
In the case of my plane (a Challenger II with Rotax 503), when that prop stops spinning it is going to come down very fast. The literature for my airplane claims a glide ratio of 9:1. Well let me say this, when you are flying lower than 1000 agl that glide ratio is not going to mean didly. You are not going to have enough time to think "OH ****!!", let alone go through a check list of emergency procedures. So you had better have a good idea of what your plane will do without power. Even more importantly than knowing what your plane will do, you had better know what you will do! Know what it is going to take to do what is necessary to get yourself on the ground safely. This should be done without giving much conscious thought to it because chances are you are not going to have enough time to think at all. You will have to react and react fast. Low and slow does not allow you enough time to develop strategies so everything you do had better be instinctive without thought.

However, I will say that in watching him pull hard back on the stick I believe that his instinctive reaction was "going down, stick back to hold altitude". It is very difficult to not want to hold your altitude by increasing the angle of attack of the wing but without any thrust to push you forward this is only going to slow you down and increase the angle of attack of the wing. Which in turn brings you closer to the stall of the wing and, BAM! Down you go!

Whether you are two feet off of the ground or FL 1000, PUSH THAT STICK FORWARD!
Click to expand...

Excellent post! This sums up my experience as well. The real thing is VERY different from practicing. You will be on the ground very quickly. The instinctive thing is to pull back especially when very close to the ground. No matter how highly trained some pilots are, they still do this. The USAF C5B crash a while back involved this exact aspect in the final stages with 5 experienced flight crew on board including a C5B check pilot. You wanna pancake 700,000 lbs. of airplane? That's gotta be loud. Miraculously everyone survived. Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed, right down to the flare.
 
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