[n468ac]

PLEASE READ --- UPDATE ---

To clean up a few miscommunications within this post:

1. It was our decision to pay Aerotronics in full at the time of the order. They were more than happy to refund our money for any of the hardware they didn’t yet have in their shop or order us any other hardware, if we wanted to change. WE HAVE NEVER QUESTIONED the honor or integrity of Aerotronics during this entire process. Their service and professionalism is second to none.
2. Lesson; Sometimes we only hear what we want to hear from a vendor.
3. Talk to all the parties involved within the same day … boy that clears the air faster than email or voice mails, both of can lead to more misunderstandings.
4. GRT was not paid any monies for any hardware either from us or Aerotronics.

Finally just a personal note … thanks to everyone involved, it’s worked out faster than I could have hoped for.







At sun and fun my dad ordered the Grand Rapids EFIS with Synthetic Vision.

Well they told us it would come at the end of April ... that came and when.

Then we heard it was coming before OSH ... that came and when.

Then at OSH we were told "shipping right after OSH".

Well here we are 8-20-08 and still no EFIS.

Makes me wonder what kind of company is Grand Rapids? Are they having issues?


My original post was removed by Bob Collins, this is the replacement as he couldn't restore the original.


Guessing on questions or replyies to this post:

1. We did aleady pay for the product.
2. We have talked to them many times alot with our vendor and just keep getting promises on shipment dates.
3. Unlike Dynon (we have one of the first D10's, they didn't sell us the unit until they were ready to ship) they (GRT) keep telling us dates and the time keeps marching away.
4. YES we are sour!

 

[RV10inOz]

Ask them to send you your money back!

Buy a Dynon when it comes out!

Why all the fuss for Synthetic Vision. Are you building a fighter jet?

DB

 

[n468ac]

Ask them to send you your money back!

Buy a Dynon when it comes out!

Why all the fuss for Synthetic Vision. Are you building a fighter jet?

DB

We are upgrading our panel to IFR and we want devise panel, with many manufactures to insure no single point of failure.

 

[RV7Guy]

Logic

We are upgrading our panel to IFR and we want devise panel, with many manufactures to insure no single point of failure.

Hi Al,

I'm not sure I understand the logic in wanting "many" brands. This is definitely not consistent with the conventions of Cockpit Resource Management. Especially, for an IFR machine.

The "single point of failure," is a way over thought idea. After all, reading the the forums for years I've never heard of complete panel failure. It may have happened but, I doubt it.

Good luck, but might want to revisit this idea.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Christopher, thanks for reposting this.

In another thread, people asked for a "heads up" when a moderator removes a thread. I did that in Chris' case and to check to see if he or his shop had contacted GRT (they had). I looked kinda stupid once I got the confirmation and was prepared to reopen the thread because another moderator apparently deleted the thread permanently. I'd made clear in the notes that there was a good chance the thread would be reopened.

We don't have a moderators forum here as far as I know, so I'll just add this as a "moderator wish list" in the spirit of that other thread. If a moderator is doing his moderating thing, please check with him/her before deleting a thread permanently that he has removed an indicated might be reopened, or at least send a heads up message that you're taking over moderating that particular thread.

I have no idea who permanently deleted the thread but I apologize for the confusion.

 

[RV7Guy]

Frustrating

This seems to be the trend with many companies in the Experimental World. I went through this with Dynon while waiting for the first of the larger screen units. After several of the "3 months," then "next month," talks I finally pulled the trigger and put in the 10A.

The only one I've seen accurate on delivery times on new stuff is Advanced Flight Systems. Then again, Rob's one of us.

 

[Radomir]

Darwin, they have (and have had) delays too.. just like everyone else..

Anyways, Christopher.. who took your money? GRT or some vendor?

You did know that the unit wasn't shipping? the date was 6/30 all along.. hate to say it but 2 month delay isn't the worst we've seen no matter what company we're talking about..

Either way.. it'd be really cool to at least post all/full info.. I understand the frustration though..

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

ONe of the things that Stein Bruch has ALWAYS imparted -- Never believe shipping promises from an avionics company.

By the way, the article I linked to contains this:

He recommends those IFR pilots looking for redundancy avoid using the same company's products across the panel. "Most of the time the EFIS systems are tied together," he says, " and when systems crash, it's usually not a hardware problem; it's a software problem" and if the same company is used for the backup, the problem is likely to take down the redundant element too

 

[David-aviator]

Cancel order and move on....

Obviously the product is not ready for shipment. Cancel the order and move on. Be grateful they have not shipped something that does not work and you become the beta tester in the clouds.

Beyond all that, is it a good idea going with experimental equipment for IFR? There's plenty of proven certified glass.

For what it is worth, I just had an EIS system changed from Subaru to Lycoming and it took all of 4 days. If the product is ready and works, it ships quick.

 

[Ironflight]

Who at GRT did you talk to?

Hi Christopher,

I had responded to your first post before Bob deleted it, but you may not have seen the post - I was curious who at GRT you talked to? I understand that GRT never takes money until they are ready to ship, so I am wondering if you ordered directly through them (and their policy has changed), or through a vendor? If through a vendor, who was it? That would make this thread a lot more valuable to others. I find it a little harsh that so many people have responded with "Take your money back and go with Dynon" when it is possible that the difficult party here isn't GRT, but a middleman. That is hardly civil!

Or, it could be GRT, and we need more to the story. I understand your frustration - I ordered one of the first ICOM A210's through Pacific Coast Avionics when it was introduced at OSH. My credit card was charged before I got home, but the nit didn't ship for MONTHS after it was promised to be "in ten days". Kept getting a string-along story. It finally came, but at that point, I was finished with "cash up front" on new technology.

To be fair to all, please give us more details!

Paul

 

[BlackRV7]

Hi Christopher,

- I was curious who at GRT you talked to? I understand that GRT never takes money until they are ready to ship, so I am wondering if you ordered directly through them (and their policy has changed), or through a vendor?
To be fair to all, please give us more details!

Paul

I was thinking the same thing as I was told "sometime around Oshkosh is what we are shooting for". I paid Steinair up front for my HX, of my own accord. Stein actually did not want to be paid up front, and have no "concrete" shipment date. I'm kinda thinking the vendor just might have your money. My experience with Grand Rapids has been exemplary.

 

[sprucemoose]

The only one I've seen accurate on delivery times on new stuff is Advanced Flight Systems. Then again, Rob's one of us.

So is Doug @ Dynon (6A I believe) and many other vendors. I've been with Dynon since the beginning (one of the very early D-10s) and have never had a complaint about them. In fact, I've heard very, very few comments like yours directed at them. Are you sure it isn't just you?

I'm sure Advanced makes a fine product, and I'll probably put on in my 8 if I ever get working on it again. But I want to point out that many RV vendors are also RV people.

 

[n468ac]

ANSWERS TO COMMENTS POSTED...

1. We already have a Dynon unit.
2. We when to GRT, on our previous experience with the EIS already installed and the support and glowing reviews posted on VAF about their EFIS products.
3. We have used aerotronics for years without any but professionalism and speedy service.
4. Giving up and starting over is an option … we posted our issue here to see if someone could give us some more light into the issues at GRT over the new EFIS.

 

[SteinAir]

Hi Guys,

As Bob said, I've preached over and over again (here and in my Kitplanes articles) that you should literally ignore any promises made by any mfgrs (even people near and dear to my heart) about deliveries for things at OSH or any airshow. Almost universally their track record is dismal for deliveries of "new" products. It's getting worse and worse every year, to the point where this year at OSH a number of vendors were showing demos of things that are still probably a year away!

Almost without exception, we will not start "lists", take "pre-orders", etc.. for things until they are shipping. That goes for new EFISes, Autopilots, etc.. I wouldn't get too down on Aerotronics, they are a absolute top notch shop (one of the few that also covered all their D2A/Chelton customers out of their own pocket like we did) and I would trust them without any second thought whatsoever.

As as far as all the "new" stuff....we won't officially take your money for it until I can get it too you. Just like Dynon's Autopilot, MGL's new stuff, Aveo's stuff, the new Advanced Deck, the new Dynon big EFIS, the new GRT HX, etc.. Until I can actually order a system that will ship, to me it's a non-existent product to me...plain and simple.

I know this timing of ordering avionics is exceedingly tough to figure out, but if you're ready for avionics or an upgrade I'd encourage you to pick something you like that actually exists today, and order that. Unless you're 100% sure you can wait an indeterminate period of time, don't count on it at all.

I've been there done that more times than you can imagine over the years with almost every mfgr out there. We're in the middle of it every single day trying to get panels done while waiting on equipment from mfgrs. The only one I've ever seen be spot on is PS Engineering. Rarely have they ever announced a product that wasn't ready for shipment.

My 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

BTW....last time I checked the GRT HX series was still a good deal of time away. Definately not days, but probably weeks or perhaps a month or so - but until they ship, who knows!

 

[BlackRV7]

1. ? we posted our issue here to see if someone could give us some more light into the issues at GRT over the new EFIS.

One option no one has posted here is GRT will ship you an HS screen for you to use until the HX is available. Then you simply swap out the units in a plug and play arrangement, as I understand with no additional wiring.

 

[RV7Guy]

True

So is Doug @ Dynon (6A I believe) and many other vendors. I've been with Dynon since the beginning (one of the very early D-10s) and have never had a complaint about them. In fact, I've heard very, very few comments like yours directed at them. Are you sure it isn't just you?

I'm sure Advanced makes a fine product, and I'll probably put on in my 8 if I ever get working on it again. But I want to point out that many RV vendors are also RV people.

I didn't say others weren't or implying that. I was just pointing out that Rob IS definitely one of us.

I'm sure Advanced has had some minor delays but I've never heard him give any "pie in the sky," delivery dates as others have suffered.

 

[Bill Dicus]

We had similar criteria. Have tried to eliminate single point failures. Here's link to our panel. There are no interconnects between the Dynon and the AFS. Both EFIS's and the TruTrak turn coordinator have battery back up. Dual alternator and battery per Bob N. Haven't flown it yet. Perhaps you'll see something you can use. http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4...0204782ly8.jpg Bill

 

[n468ac]

------UPDATE------

Got message from Todd ... Calling him now.

 

[w1curtis]

...... There are no interconnects between the Dynon and the AFS.

I'm curious, what risk do you mitigate by doing this?

 

[todds]

Grand Rapids Technologies Horizon HX product info

We have never required payment until the product is shipped, and we still do not.

We have been shipping HS systems for the customers that needed systems to complete their projects. We will swap them out with HX's when they are available. We only charge for the HS, the balance due, when we swap them out.

This same offer is available to Mr. Checca. I have sent them a private msg.

The HX units will start shipping mid to late September.

We hold our reputation as our most precious asset. This post does not accurately reflect our business practices. I think this issue is easily cleared up just through our normal business practices. Why this has not happened I can not say. It is an unusual set of circumstances.

As far as GRT being part of the RV family, how many RV's do we need?

We have 2 RV6's and both Greg and I are building RV10's, does Rob win because he built his faster? I will try even harder to become one with the community maybe an RV8 next.


Todd Stehouwer
Grand Rapids Technologies, Inc

 

[n468ac]

Talked to Todd at Grand Rapids!!

I just got off the phone with Todd from GRT. He was very understanding to our plight.
I also got off the phone with Jason from Aerotronics.

I?m a very happy customer again!!!

I also want to say all the guys on VAF that rave about GRT were right!! Their customer service is better than I could have expected. After all the miss communications in these past months.

We are going to get an HS unit from GRT, once they have the HX units completed and shipping it should be a direct swap.
Thanks Todd for getting to me so quickly and resolving this issue in a matter of mins.

 

[RVbySDI]

I just got off the phone with Todd from GRT. He was very understanding to our plight.
I also got off the phone with Jason from Aerotronics.

I?m a very happy customer again!!!

I also want to say all the guys on VAF that rave about GRT were right!! Their customer service is better than I could have expected. After all the miss communications in these past months.

We are going to get an HS unit from GRT, once they have the HX units completed and shipping it should be a direct swap.
Thanks Todd for getting to me so quickly and resolving this issue in a matter of mins.

I would think the above posts from GRT and from you should have transpired long before you ever posted to this forum.

I had questions concerning your original posts that I did not ask simply because I did not have an opportunity to do so before the previous posts basically answered them.

I will add that all of these aviation companies that deal with the experimental community have my admiration and respect when it comes to customer support. I wish other industries would watch how these guys interact with their customer base. They could learn a thing or two.

To that end, maybe you should address your concerns and frustrations to the company first before deciding to post to such a public forum. I understand how frustrating working with businesses that do not communicate well with you can be, but you should give them a chance first before attempting to tell the world what a "rotten dirty no good so and so" someone is. I have no doubt that no matter whether it is GRT, Dynon, AFS, Aertronics, Stein or any number of others doing business in this arena, these people will do their best to provide to their customers that which they have promised to provide.

 

[n468ac]

--- UPDATE --- Please Read ---

FONT="Arial"]PLEASE READ --- UPDATE ---[/FONT]
To clean up a few miscommunications within this post:
1. It was our decision to pay Aerotronics in full at the time of the order. They were more than happy to refund our money for any of the hardware they didn?t yet have in their shop or order us any other hardware, if we wanted to change. WE HAVE NEVER QUESTIONED the honor or integrity of Aerotronics during this entire process. Their service and professionalism is second to none.
2. Lesson; Sometimes we only hear what we want to hear from a vendor.
3. Talk to all the parties involved within the same day ? boy that clears the air faster than email or voice mails, both of can lead to more misunderstandings.
4. GRT was not paid any monies for any hardware either from us or Aerotronics.
Just a personal note ? thanks to everyone involved, it?s worked out faster than I could have hoped for.

 

[n468ac]

I would think the above posts from GRT and from you should have transpired long before you ever posted to this forum.

I had questions concerning your original posts that I did not ask simply because I did not have an opportunity to do so before the previous posts basically answered them.

I will add that all of these aviation companies that deal with the experimental community have my admiration and respect when it comes to customer support. I wish other industries would watch how these guys interact with their customer base. They could learn a thing or two.

To that end, maybe you should address your concerns and frustrations to the company first before deciding to post to such a public forum. I understand how frustrating working with businesses that do not communicate well with you can be, but you should give them a chance first before attempting to tell the world what a "rotten dirty no good so and so" someone is. I have no doubt that no matter whether it is GRT, Dynon, AFS, Aertronics, Stein or any number of others doing business in this arena, these people will do their best to provide to their customers that which they have promised to provide.

We did try to have this addressed with the companies at OSH and thought it was settled. I posted to this public forum out of frustration.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

We did try to have this addressed with the companies at OSH and thought it was settled. I posted to this public forum out of frustration.

Very poor reason to trash a vendor's reputation. Have to wonder how readily other vendors will be to do business with you next time.

I find the premise of this thread very frustrating.............

 

[RVbySDI]

We did try to have this addressed with the companies at OSH and thought it was settled. I posted to this public forum out of frustration.

I empathize with your frustrations. However, I would postulate that if one were to step back from the situation and take a break from it long enough to think through things it is possible to communicate with all parties about the situation before taking it public. With the apparent ease with which one telephone conversation was able to resolve the situation it sounds to me like there was simply some misinformation or a miscommunication that caused your frustration.

Whenever that occurs it will always be in the best interest of all parties to discuss openly what the miscommunications are and resolve them together. I would speculate that 99% of the time this will resolve the issue to a satisfactory conclusion for all parties.

Good Luck with your new instruments. I am sure once they are installed you will enjoy using them.

Live Long and Prosper!

 

[CNEJR]

Grand Rapid Tech. has been one of the shinning bright spots of my project. They have always done everything with in reason to help me. I would do business with these people anytime.

 

[azav8or]

Very poor reason to trash a vendor's reputation. Have to wonder how readily other vendors will be to do business with you next time.

I find the premise of this thread very frustrating.............

He was sharing his frustration.......not trashing a vendor. It's a two way street and the vendor needs to keep their customers informed with an accurate status.


As long as he is willing to pay the other vendors will be happy to take his money.

 

[Don Jones]

Guess who I am gonna call....

....when I am ready for my panel! Awesome Todd!

We have never required payment until the product is shipped, and we still do not.

We have been shipping HS systems for the customers that needed systems to complete their projects. We will swap them out with HX's when they are available. We only charge for the HS, the balance due, when we swap them out.

This same offer is available to Mr. Checca. I have sent them a private msg.

The HX units will start shipping mid to late September.

We hold our reputation as our most precious asset. This post does not accurately reflect our business practices. I think this issue is easily cleared up just through our normal business practices. Why this has not happened I can not say. It is an unusual set of circumstances.

As far as GRT being part of the RV family, how many RV's do we need?

We have 2 RV6's and both Greg and I are building RV10's, does Rob win because he built his faster? I will try even harder to become one with the community maybe an RV8 next.


Todd Stehouwer
Grand Rapids Technologies, Inc

 

[Mike S]

FONT="Arial"]PLEASE READ --- UPDATE ---[/FONT]
To clean up a few miscommunications within this post:
1. It was our decision to pay Aerotronics in full at the time of the order. They were more than happy to refund our money for any of the hardware they didn?t yet have in their shop or order us any other hardware, if we wanted to change. WE HAVE NEVER QUESTIONED the honor or integrity of Aerotronics during this entire process. Their service and professionalism is second to none.
2. Lesson; Sometimes we only hear what we want to hear from a vendor.
3. Talk to all the parties involved within the same day ? boy that clears the air faster than email or voice mails, both of can lead to more misunderstandings.
4. GRT was not paid any monies for any hardware either from us or Aerotronics.
Just a personal note ? thanks to everyone involved, it?s worked out faster than I could have hoped for.

Chris, thanks for having the integrity to put up this post.

Specially item 2.

 

[steveKs.]

My RV8 begs for a HX EFIS and GRT will definitely be my choice.

 

[macrafic]

Hi Al,

The "single point of failure," is a way over thought idea. After all, reading the the forums for years I've never heard of complete panel failure. It may have happened but, I doubt it.

Darwin, I'm glad you had the "guts" to say this. I share your feelings. I've talked to many people, including panel builders, about my idea to have glass only in my cockpit, with no conventinal dials. An overwhelming majority have indicated some amount of unease with that (gross understatement!).

The way I look at it, the odds of all the following happening at the same time are astronomical:
- loss of all electrical, including my dual alternators/battery/multiple busses
- Expiration of the backup batteries in my EFIS's
- Expiration of the batteries in my handheld 196/496 (I often train with the nav page under the hood)
- I'm in the soup

Could it happen? Sure. But, no amount of redundancy is going to eliminate the potential for "going blind", only reduce the risk. I'm worried more about the engine failing me than I am my panel.

Anyway, everybody has to tread their comfort zones to their own satisfaction. Just nice to know I'm not alone.

 

[L.Adamson]

Ask them to send you your money back!

Why all the fuss for Synthetic Vision. Are you building a fighter jet?

On a serious note, I have file after file of pilots who could have used synthetic vision; even though they didn't know it at the time. As previously stated----------these incidents, of which there are far too many.... involve VFR, IFR, Commercial, and military. And being even more serious, one of Van's airplanes in particular, could sure have used it.

IMO, the combination of GPS dervived terrain data maps, terrain warning, and 3D synthetic vision............will add to aviation safety tremendously! I don't know about OZ, but we still have lots of flight into terrain accidents around here..........in the mountain west of the USA.

L.Adamson

 

[apatti]

Tweet! Tweet! 15 yards penalty for piling on

He was sharing his frustration.......not trashing a vendor. It's a two way street and the vendor needs to keep their customers informed with an accurate status.


As long as he is willing to pay the other vendors will be happy to take his money.

I agree with Joe. Seems to me there was nothing inaccurate in his original post. Also, sounds like he communicated with the vendor on numerous occasions.

I see nothing wrong with publicly stating problems you are having with a vendor in a factual manner. We all can view the post and decide for ourselves whether the customer is being unreasonable. Those that have had different experiences with the vendor can chime in to provide another point of view. However, I don't think it is appropriate to trash a poster unless he/she purposefully mistated the facts.