Status
Not open for further replies.
L

luke42179

Member
low time pilot question . . .

Flew from CRQ to FUL yesterday. On the way back to CRQ in the evening, I obtained VFR flight following and got a squak code. I was around Disneyland (+3000AGL) and thinking about the approach end of SNA (John Wayne) when the controller said "resume own navigation". He did NOT say "radar service terminated" or "squak VFR".

I was a little nervous about flying over SNA and through their class Charlie airspace on "my own navigation". Am I correct to assume that the controller was still giving me radar service and that I was cleared through SNA's airspace?

I ultimately was handed off and so that would seem to be the case. But if so, what exactly does "resume own navigation" mean in that situation?

The AIM's definition was useless so I would appreciate another authoritative answer.
 
Its means that you are cleared to head whichever direction you were planning on heading before he gave you radar vectors.
For example --- You are given a vector for traffic, because the controller felt it easier to move you instead of him. When you were clear of the traffic, they say that you are cleared to resume own navigation. Well now you can do what you want, you can re-intercept the previous course you were flying or you can now go direct to nav-aid you were using or direct to the airport that is your intended landing. You are still cleared through the airspace if previously granted and you are still under radar services.

Hope that helps
 
From the FAA pilot/controller glossary:

"RESUME OWN NAVIGATION- Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored."

"Resume own navigation" essentially means that you are free to set and follow a course of your choosing. That course should be consistent with your stated destination, i.e., don't randomly head in the opposite direction, since they are expecting you to head somewhere, at least in general.

TODR
 
Usually they will say that after they have vectored you around something/traffic. Basically it means you can now fly direct to your destination. You are still under radar service and should be cleared through SNA. Sometimes they switch controllers why you are going through their airspace and the new controller does not know if you have been vectored anywhere and put off course.
 
Thanks! Being cleared and monitored was my main worry . . . while heading across the approach path of jets (!!) and through charlie airspace . . . "resume OWN navigation" sounds ominous to the (somewhat) unitiated
 
Good replies and I'll just emphasize it Does Not mean radar service is terminated...you should NOT squawk 1200 or switch frequencies unless they explicitly say "RADAR service terminated". Learned a long time ago the hard way....
 
Also, don't be surprised if they leave the word OWN out of the phrase, ie "Resume Navigation".

Larry
 
Good question.

If you have a question in the air with flight following or any ATC just ask. You can always do what I do, begin by saying "Lowtime pilot" or "Student pilot" (I still use this one ;)) they will (if they are any good) take the hint and explain what is going on. If you ever don't undstand instructions, by all means ask. There is no question they have not heard asked before. You will pick up more as you gain experence, but assuming you know what they want you to do can get you in trouble.

There simply is no dumb questions in the air.
 
Last edited:
If you have not heard "cleared though XYZ" then I'd guess you were not cleared to enter SNA airspace. If you were still outside SNA and direct to your destination was straight through SNA I can see your concern and confusion but do not enter without a specific clearance.

Had you asked specifically to fly through SNA??

Resume own nav means you are responsible for where you go and whether it's legal to go the way you choose. They're looking out for traffic and will likely warn you if you are approaching restricted airspace but YOU are responsible for your path.
 
thanks guys
Grant - specific clearance is not required to enter class C, only class B. Communication with a controller is all that's required to enter class C. So, my question revolves around whether I was still in communication with the controller and under his radar control. From the replies above, it seems the answer is 'yes', I was.

But, I am at fault for making that assumption when I was not certain of my status. I should have swallowed my pride and asked directly.
 
Geico266 said:
Roger that. When in doubt ask. They won't charge you any more. :D
Click to expand...
At least not for the moment ;-)

I've found the controllers more than happy to help if you are confused or need clarification. I've found them to be much less happy to help if you assume something that isn't what they meant :eek:

TODR
 
Caution

SOCAL Approach is ill equiped to hold your hand in that particular piece of airspace. They can and do get very testy (downright angry) if you do not have a plan and know what you are doing in there. If you took off from Fulerton to fly south you should have had a plan for dealing with the SNA Class C. If you did not make it clear that you wanted to transition through the SNA Class C on you route then you cannot assume that the controller communication was sufficient for the purpose of entering the Class C airspace. Your own navigation must accomodate the the requirements of all airspace you are going to fly through including communicating for the purpose of entering Class B, C and D airspace. Requesting flight following does not satisfy that requirement.

I flew from SNA over FUL to EMT and back again every day for 15 years commuting to work at JPL and I can assure you that your concern is well founded. It is not OK to take "resume own navigation" by itself as the necessary communication to enter Class C airspace if your communication did not tell the controller that you intended to go there.

Bob Axsom
 
Good questions, don't assume and ATC makes mistakes

luke42179 said:
low time pilot question . . .

the controller said "resume own navigation". He did NOT say "radar service terminated" or "squawk VFR".

Am I correct to assume that the controller was still giving me radar service and that I was cleared through SNA's airspace?
Click to expand...
When in doubt ask.

OWN NAV means just that, no hidden meaning. ATC often gives vectors, mostly with IFR and when you transition for vectors to OWN NAV they tell you that. You are free to navigate. HOWEVER EVEN IF VECTORED YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE. IF YOU GET A BAD VECTOR, AND FLY INTO A HILL OR AIRSPACE YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED IN, ITS YOUR FAULT. I can't tell you enough as PIC you are in charge of the plane and responsible 100% of the time. I only say that because pilots trust ATC and some times get themselves into pickles. ATC v pilot is NOT and adversarial relationship, but you have to realize to be blunt if you crash they still go home. If you screw up its your you know what in a vice. If you blow or ignore an ATC command than they get mad. They assume you understand and will comply.

If there is "airspace", B, C or D and you don't ear the words "cleared to enter the blaa blaa", than don't assume. If they forget fine but ask.

Usually they cut you loose from VFR flight following so you can switch freqs, get atis and tower and land. Many are pilots and know its time for you to start your initial arrival and get ready. The fact he kept you on a discrete squawk means he was probably keeping an eye on you, BUT DONT ASSUME. IFR they usually hold your hand to the initial approach segment or the STAR.

Regardless when you do get VFR flight following you have to play the game, listen and do what they say, but the are only watching and can give you vectors or traffic, but don't assume or count on it. If say I'm on an IFR flight plane and in radar coverage, I still have to fly the plane and navigate.


The controller in the group can give you their take, but as a pilot I can tell you controller MAKE MISTAKES ALL THE TIME, and they'd be the first to admit it. I don't mean one controller, but ATC system wide mistakes are made. It is the check and balance between pilot/controller that is the safety net. Pilots of course make mistakes as well, but the law is PIC is responsible.

In this case all sounds normal and if you are low time, say "I'm a new pilot".

VFR flight following is a service, as time pirmits. Don't expect traffic call outs; that is STILL your responsibility; don't expect 100% navigation is taken care of. Good question.

Now lets say ATC has time and can hold your hand or stay with you to the airport, they might if you ask. They can give you vectors and even call the tower (on a phone) and give you WX. I have done it.

True Story alert:
Flying into Las Vegas VFR, night in a RV-4 was quite the light show. Approach told me airport at XYZ. I was landing at McCarran. I said I don't see it. No problem coming in for the NW he just gave me a progressive (fly down the strip) and after the 2nd or 3rd time he said, do you have it? I said yes and he let me go, "contact tower xyz good night". Ego checked but better than the alternative. Now before you guys question my MrkIV eye balls; there are a heck of a lot of lights in Vegas. Also it was turbulaaaaaant! My head was hitting the canopy. It did not smooth out till I was well into the valley. It's hard to see when bouncing. Bottom line I did not WISH I could see it. I was honest and a little embarrassed to not see it sooner, but heck I was glad to see I was on a perfect extend right base for the active GA runway 19R, tower was expecting me and I landed. The airliners where landing 25's I recall. It was so slick. Executive was right at the end, parked, got a ride to the hotel and checked in less than 30 mins of landing. I was having a drink and watching a comedy show an hour later. It was an impromptu stop and lay over. I was going to PHX but it was just too late and I was tired. Of course you have to buy gas but an RV does not take much and this is when 100LL was $1.98.
 
Last edited:
Okay, story time.

SnF about 8 years ago, I flew a buddy to a "D" space about an hour south of Lakeland to do warranty work on a plane. It was located just south of a "C" space. Going there I hooked up with flight following no problems all the way in. On the way out I told the controller in the "D" space I was headed back to SnF, that we were having a great time, yada yada, and requested flight following (or so I thought) either he did not hear me or I did not request it. In any event, I launch, head north busting 3 miles into the "C" space before I realize no one knows I'm there. I kept waiting for the "D" space ATC to turn me loose and to change freqs. Nothin. I should have had a clue when he told me to squawk 1200 back when I was on the ground.

Stunned, embarrassed, humbled, I hooked up with the "C" space got a squawk code and appoligized, giving my name as Doug Reeves. ;)

Lesson learned. When in doubt, ask, when you know you have really goofed up tell them you are DR. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Communication ONLY!

Bob Axsom said:
SOCAL Approach is ill equiped to hold your hand in that particular piece of airspace. They can and do get very testy (downright angry) if you do not have a plan and know what you are doing in there. If you took off from Fulerton to fly south you should have had a plan for dealing with the SNA Class C. If you did not make it clear that you wanted to transition through the SNA Class C on you route then you cannot assume that the controller communication was sufficient for the purpose of entering the Class C airspace. Your own navigation must accomodate the the requirements of all airspace you are going to fly through including communicating for the purpose of entering Class B, C and D airspace. Requesting flight following does not satisfy that requirement.

I flew from SNA over FUL to EMT and back again every day for 15 years commuting to work at JPL and I can assure you that your concern is well founded. It is not OK to take "resume own navigation" by itself as the necessary communication to enter Class C airspace if your communication did not tell the controller that you intended to go there.

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

Bob,
That is not accurate. Communication is established when they first state your call sign. Once communication is established with the class C controllers you are cleared to enter their airspace unless they specifically tell you not to. Any headings, altitude restrictions, etc, should be given by the controller at that time. That includes a flight following hand off to them.

There is no requirement to tell a controller specifically that you plan to enter their airspace.

luke42179 was doing the right thing - talking to controllers along his route of flight. Along the route FUL to CRQ, there is no obvious path that does not take you through the class C. They would and should have expected him to fly though unless his stated or actual routing would somehow avoid the airspace.

luke42179,
I make it a habit to keep controllers apprised of anything they might not be expecting. That includes changes in altitude while on flight following, or even when I start my descent for my destination. Last week on the way back to PAO from SMX, I was flying a route from SNS to DOCAL intersection. That route would have taken me along the edge or possibly just in the SJC class C. Because of the turbulence I decided to reroute and fly NW to the valley, then turn back NE and descend to a lower altitude. This was going to take me right through the class C and very near SJC airport. I let them know as soon as I made my decision.

There was no legal requirement to do so, and at no time did I inform them I planned to fly through the class C. That was implicit from my destination and route of flight.

Being legal is important, but pilot & controller each having a clear picture of what is going to happen is even more important.

Never hesitate to ask controllers a question, even if you should know, even if it makes you look dumb, or even if it gets them angry.

A while back I had a controller at LGB get snotty with me because I asked him to repeat some instructions. I was fatigued and wasn't sure if I had them right. Turns out I did have them right, but it was worth it just to be sure.

I can't count the times I have asked a controller to "confirm cleared to land". Often I hear a sigh as they repeat themselves. Why am I unsure? Cockpit duties, looking for traffic, watching out for birds, Sr moment, or whatever. Its a little embarrassing, but I live through it.

Some controllers get upset about all kinds of stuff. Too bad. Me being alive is more important than them having to take a moment to explain something.
That said, most controllers are more than happy to help you out. Just a few jerks (like in every field) or possibly the occasional good guy having a bad day.
 
Steve Brown said:
Bob,
That is not accurate. Communication is established when they first state your call sign. Once communication is established with the class C controllers you are cleared to enter their airspace unless they specifically tell you not to.
Click to expand...

I must very humbly disagree with Bob and GMC, and agree with the above. Class B airspace (and maybe Class A, don't know, never flown that high unless I'm sipping a cocktail in the back of the big iron) is the only airspace one must be explicitly "cleared" to enter. To clarify my point, the controller must state your N number and the words "cleared to enter Class Bravo".

For Class C and D airspace you must establish two way communications with the controlling agency. To clarify my point again, two way communication is established when the controller reads back your N number, "N1234 SoCal Approach, say request". Since they have stated your N number you've established two way communication. If they say "Aircraft calling stand by", then two way communication has not been established; the controller did not say your N number. So Luke, in your situation, you were cleared to enter all Class C airspace along your route of flight. That being said, Bob has an excellent suggestion. Telling the controller you intend to transit some busy Class C airspace is without a doubt a good idea, but the controller will not "clear" you into Class C airspace, ie they will not explicitly state ?N 1234 cleared to enter Class Charlie?.

Keep in mind that when talking to SoCal you ARE NOT cleared into Class D airspace unless SoCal has coordinated it with the controller of the Class D airspace. If you intend to transit Class D airspace then you must either ask the controller to arrange clearance for you or you have to contact the controlling tower yourself. A few years ago I was flying from SMO to CNO, receiving flight following. The controller I was talking with arranged clearance through EMT airspace for me on the way out, but on the way back I was told to contact the tower myself for clearance.

You're doing the right thing giving yourself a de-briefing of your flight and asking questions. I'm a low time pilot myself (~200 hrs) and it's something I do after every flight. IMO, this is the best way to learn from every flight, not repeat the same mistakes, and make yourself a better and safer pilot.

And to Bob and GMC, I have learned much about flying from the both of you (and everyone here on VAF), and for that I say Thank You.

-John
Planning to build an RV....someday:rolleyes:
 
Why it never hurts to request clarification

This morning I left Fresno CA (KFAT) for home (00V) in Colorado. After runup and contacting the tower to state that I was ready to depart he had me cross 29L to get to 29R. I suspect that he cleared me to take-off but....

I never assume that being told to cross an active means that either runway does not mean that someone is on final. So by the short time that it took me to cross 29L I forgot whether I was cleared to enter 29R.

So before I did I called the tower to verify it.

Did I provide fodder for controllers to laugh over my memory lapse? Does not matter. By clarifying the tower instructions I ensured that I was not a runway incursion statistic.
 
The initial call is being overlooked

The format and content of the initial call before the Controller responds is very important and I think that is being overlooked here. Assumptions are made that the "Who you are calling", "Who you are", "Where you are" and "What you want to do" some way establishes that the caller wants to enter Class C airspace. That is not clearly established in this senario therefore the "caution" response. This is a dangerous area and if you do not make your intention clear to transition through Class C it is not safe to assume that the controller knows that is your intention. There are ways to get past SNA'a Class C without flying through it. When I used to fly home I would start calling SOCAL shortly after passing Rose Hills on a 150 heading inbound for SNA watching the DME as I got closer. Many times the response from SOCAL on 121.3 did not come before I hit 11 miles and I would have to break off to the right and proceed to SLI to remain clear of the SNA Class C. I would change to the SOCAL frequency for that area and keep calling until until appropriate Class C entry communication was established and usually I would proceed over Mile Square Park inbound to the airport. However, ocassionally they would be so busy that I would proceed out over the ocean and turn left just outside the 10 mile Class C ring. A VFR pilot at that time Could proceed down the coast and never talk to a controller. I have been in Arkansas since retiring in 2004 but you could also fly over the SNA Class C at that time. Depending on what is said on the pilot side of the communication an entry into Class C may be setup and the handshake from the responding controller may be the required two way comunucation for entry into Class C and maybe not. If the controller talks to a pilot that has not established in any way that he intends to fly into Class C it is not automatically OK to pass through the final approach for 19R. The fundamental requirement for controller response with the N number to authorize entry is not in question.

Bob Axsom
 
When I did my first X-country solo from TOA to CRQ as a student 4 years ago, I got flight following shortly out of TOA and never specifically asked for clearance thru SNA class C. The controller never asked me about my intentions about SNA class C, either. I did actually fly thru the class C just off shore at 3,500' and as I crossed the extended centerline, I heard the controller tell a 737 just after takeoff to remain below 2,800' or so for traffic (me). He then advised me of the traffic. As a student pilot in a Citabria, that made me feel really smug for a minute or two. :)

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, 100.2 hrs...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.