L

LIMA HOTEL

Active Member
OK all you kolwledgeable procedure types, what documents do we as ELSA builders have to present the FAA for the inspection? Then after we can start flying, what are the requirements before the airplane can be flown normally (i.e. with passenger and cross country)? I have heard that for ELSA the PHASE 1 is only 5 hours. What is involved with a PHASE 1 for an ELSA RV-12?
Are there other PHASES and if so, what do they involve? My EAA tech. advisor has never done an ELSA before and I haven't found any other members of our local chapter who know much about it.

I am builder #52
Info appreciated,
Larry
 
Last edited:
Check out FAR part 21.193. This gives all the required documentation. Van will supply this documentation. You should contact your DAR or FAA Inspector early and talk. Many DARs do not have function code 47, so start shopping.

Phase I testing is indeed 5 hours minimum. After phase I, phase II is normal operation, cross country, with passengers, etc.
Biggest difference between amateur-built and E-LSA is that with E-LSA, if you are operating on anything below a recreational pilot certificate, you must have a make/model endorsement in your pilot logbook. And of course the repairman certificate requirements are different.
n168tx(at)flytx.net
 
Mel,
Can I assume since Van hired a professional test pilot to do it, we don't have to do spin testing? Do we have to load the plane to gross at forward CG and aft CG and do a full routine of tests (except spin?). I believe Van's will be giving us a POH so can I assume we don't have to generate our own tables for weight & balance, Vx, Vy, best engine out glide speed, runway length tables, etc.
I am new to homebuilding, please be patient with me.
Larry
 
LIMA HOTEL said:
Mel,
Can I assume since Van hired a professional test pilot to do it, we don't have to do spin testing? Do we have to load the plane to gross at forward CG and aft CG and do a full routine of tests (except spin?). I believe Van's will be giving us a POH so can I assume we don't have to generate our own tables for weight & balance, Vx, Vy, best engine out glide speed, runway length tables, etc.
I am new to homebuilding, please be patient with me.
Larry
Click to expand...
No spin testing is required. Weight & balance and CG limit testing will be required as no 2 airplanes weight exactly the same or have the same CG. Primer and paint for example will change weight and CG noticeably.
You should obtain and read FAA AC20-27. Even though it is primarily written for experimental amateur-built, a lot of the stuff is also in line with experimental light-sport.
 
Question from local FAA Inspector

Mel,

As per your advice I am starting to bring my local FAA FSDO guy into discussion about my eventual certification of the RV-12 as an E-LSA. I pointed him to the verbiage on the Van's website, and he has responded as follows:

"My concern is in the first paragraph that is "RV-12 builders may build and license conforming airplanes in the E-LSA category." Does your airplane conform to the LSA Standards? If the prototype is not certified how does Vans insure the components you have meet the standard. I think you need an answer from Vans for your kit."

I think the gist of his question pertains to the parts that are already built, before S-LSA certification is complete, and how do we prove they are meeting "standards" when there is no S-LSA certification at this time. What is your understanding of this? Will the FAA retroactively give their approval?

Just a little concerned there may be an issue here for us early builders.
 
The prototype RV-12 WILL meet the standards once it is certificated as S-LSA. If he has to change anything to secure that certification, builders will have to make the same changes. There is no reason for you to prove anything until you turn in you application for airworthiness (8130-6).
When you have received all you kits, Van's will issue a form 8130-15 (certificate of compliance) that shows that all parts in your kit comply with the prototype aircraft. Until that point, you can't show any proof, nor do you need to.
 
Hi Mel,

Yes 21.193 is the correct legal requirement but it has little to do with what the builder needs to present to you at the time of the requested certification and I think that this is the information requested by the person who started this thread. Things like how does he get the registration certificate, builders log if that is requires for an ELSA, the FAA required affidavit needed for registration and the things like Weight and Balance data and most forward and most aft conditions of Weight and Balance if those are the things you would want to see.

Our local DAR has a nice email he sends out to us for EAB aircraft and he is still trying to get Function Code 47 so that he can help the six RV-12's being built here at Spruce Creek, so far the FAA has not moved forward to permit him Function Code 47.

Best regards,
Vern
 
I guess I don't understand the question. Part 21.193 lists the documents that the applicant must provide to the DAR. These documents will be supplied to him by the kit manufacturer. As far as weight & balance, that must be calculated just like any other aircraft. You must weigh the aircraft and calculate the W & B. No builder's log is required other than enough information to show that the aircraft was built in accordance with plans and instructions provided by the kit manufacturer without modification.
 
OK! Here's how I do it.

I can't do anything until you have your aircraft registered with the FAA and the number is assigned to your aircraft. When you get your aircraft registered, call me and give me your "N" number, the engine manufacturer and model, the prop manufacturer and model, and your phone number.
I will send you a package of paperwork including a form 8130-6 (application fro airworthiness), a program letter describing your aircraft and the purpose for which you built it, and a cover sheet listing what you need to do. You complete, sign, and return the papers to me and we will set up an appointment for the inspection.
At the inspection, if everything is in order, I will issue your airworthiness certificate and you are done except for phase I flight testing.
I'm sure other DARs do things a little differently, but you can be assured that we receive training to know how to do this stuff.
Look on the front page of this website and you will find a listing of DARs all over the country. I don't ever remember seeing a post that said, "My DAR didn't know what he was talking about." We will take care of you. I promise.
If you need further information, go to FAA Order 8130.2F. This is our "Bible". It somewhat lengthy, but you should be able to find answers to any and all of your certification questions there.
 
Registering an ELSA

Hi Mel,

I think we are getting there, thanks. The EAA web site has clear instructions for how to register a EAB but no information on how to register a ELSA and I have not been able to find any other source of such information. Do you have any insight into how we can do that? I assume that we would need a "Kit Bill of Sale" from Van's and the request for registration FAA form but I have no idea of what to put in the make and model box. It seems that Van's is not yet providing the Bill of Sale so we are not able to move forward in any case which may cause a log jam when they are ready to start providing paperwork.

I do agree with you that the real working DAR's are good people and are both knowledgeable and helpful, some of the retired FAA people who were given DAR's and do not use them slow down the process because Edsel Ford thinks in numbers and he thinks that there are plenty of DAR's when there are very few with Function Code 47 who actually certify aircraft regularly.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Mel

Mel said:
Check out FAR part 21.193. This gives all the required documentation. Van will supply this documentation. You should contact your DAR or FAA Inspector early and talk. Many DARs do not have function code 47, so start shopping.

Phase I testing is indeed 5 hours minimum. After phase I, phase II is normal operation, cross country, with passengers, etc.
Biggest difference between amateur-built and E-LSA is that with E-LSA, if you are operating on anything below a recreational pilot certificate, you must have a make/model endorsement in your pilot logbook. And of course the repairman certificate requirements are different.
n168tx(at)flytx.net
Click to expand...

When I check out the FAR's and the AC's it appears that we cannot get a registration number with the 8050-1 and 8050-2 alone. According to the FFA web site, registration of an ELSA also requires the 8050-88A. Not only does it ask for the aircraft ID #, it also requests engine serial numbers and notarized declarations from the "manufacturer". I plan to call the FAA on Tuesday but thought you might have some insight. I know the 8130-15, Statement of Compliance comes with the last delivered part but we don't need it to get an N-number. Sounds like the 88A is a requirement? Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.