C

chris mitchell

Well Known Member
Patron
Well, I have finally given up with the RV-4 fuselage that I have been trying to remediate. Every time I get something fixed a new problem turns up and I think it will be easier, quicker and possibly even less expensive to start again from scratch.

So now I have an empennage and wings, and have to match them up toa new fuselage. There are some parts - seats, roll bar, engine mount and so on that I can retrieve and re-use - but I think I will have to salvage the F-404 assembly to use with the existing wings? What else do I HAVE to salvage/ Rear spar carry through? Firewall?

Thanks

Chris:(:(
 
Is the fuse really that bad? It sounds like I'm in the same situation as you, but I decided to push forward and fix all the problems rather than abandon the project.
I had to replace the rear wing spar carry through because the builder mis-drilled the attach holes and it looked like Swiss cheese. Well last night I looked at the left wing rear spar and it too had multiple holes drilled. I was really frustrated because I thought the left wing was trash. After talking to another RV builder he said it was an easy fix, so I feel a little better now. I was hoping that all I had to do to the wings was fix a few leaking rivets in the fuel tanks.
My fuselage repairs include replacing the entire empennage, changing out the two 1/4" x 1-1/2" flat bar attach points for the elevator (too many holes), rear spar carry through brace, turtle deck, canopy and frame, formers F-405 & F-406, instrument panel and gauges, engine mount weldments, and fuel tank attach brackets. And that's all I've found so far.
 
I dont have to plans in front of me. You have to keep the bulkheads that attach the wing to the fuse. Everything else can be new.

Good luck with your deccision. At the end, you are the one that needs to be happy.
 
Vans might be able to supply undrilled F-404 bulkhead parts. Get some appropriately sized drill bushings, carefully locate and clamp the 404 bulkhead to the spar and match drill. That's how I matched my undrilled HRII center section to pre-drilled RV-4 spars. It might be worth a call.
 
Thanks for replies.

Arlie - I just feel that I won't be happy in this bodged up repaired fuselage - its getting to the stage of being like Grandma's old broom, 50 years old and still going, 6 new shafts and 16 new heads. I had planned to replace the front floor, rear turtle deck, F412, F-411, the baggage ribs F-418, one engine mount weldment, instrument panel - then I found that the ribs that butt against the F-404 had been bodged, were not riveted correctly plus a lot of edge distance problems with various other areas eg flap weldment mounts - and decided it would be easier to start from scratch than try to fix someone else's mistakes. I'm negotiating with the seller for some USD - he and an A and P who inspected the plane for me assured me that it was built according to Van's plans and instructions and it just isn't.

Thanks Axel - that's what I thought tho I now have seen that there is a problem with part of this F-404 construction that will need another fix. I'll be calling Vans to see if I can get new F-404 components.

Trying hard to be positive, not get angry, and view that last few months as an opportunity to recover my building skills! The two photos should show a couple of the problems.....

IMG_0362.jpg

IMG_0367.jpg


Happy 2014!!

Chris
 
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Yes Chris, I see what you mean. Rivet edge distance is way off in those pics. Mines not that bad. This is how I see my situation. I consider it a practice plane that I can use to refine my building skills. So if I decide to build my next RV there won't be any surprises and it can be built with minimal effort.
My -4 really opened my eyes when it comes to purchasing a used RV. You have to be really thorough when doing a pre buy inspection and negotiate the price accordingly if it's airworthy.
In my case I basically bought the engine and got the plane for free, so I'm not complaining too bad.
 
Visit

Hi Chris

Now I have put 2 and 2 together and can help further. I can fly up to Harrogate in my 4 as soon as I get it full permit cleared when this **** weather relents. I wish I had know you were buying from the states I could have got a friend to look at it and advised you properly.

Things to keep assuming they are Ok:-

Rudder pedals, brakes,gear legs,engine mount, sticks, torque tube, tailwheel weldment. The spar wing attach bulkheads but only for the purpose of allowing you to match drill new ones. I have a manual flap arm if you want one but yours might be OK or you could go electric.

As I said in my email earlier I would go fastback and semi rocket by that I mean a rocket front end but leave the standard size wings ( bigger tanks would be nice).... but the engine would be between 170 and 200hp.

They perform really well on 160 , but the availability of power is never abad thing.
 
WAM120RV said:
Things to keep assuming they are Ok:-

Rudder pedals, brakes,gear legs,engine mount, sticks, torque tube, tailwheel weldment. The spar wing attach bulkheads but only for the purpose of allowing you to match drill new ones.
Click to expand...
That's a good list. I'd add the spar doubler plates which could probably be reused even if you scrap the spar bulkhead - and they're already match drilled so you don't have to drill big holes in thick steel.

Other things I'd consider but certainly not mandatory: seat belt attach brackets, stick mounts, rear spar if there's no question about build quality. I'd rather drill these out than build new ones, but YMMV.
 
longranger said:
Vans might be able to supply undrilled F-404 bulkhead parts. Get some appropriately sized drill bushings, carefully locate and clamp the 404 bulkhead to the spar and match drill. That's how I matched my undrilled HRII center section to pre-drilled RV-4 spars. It might be worth a call.
Click to expand...

It just so happens that drill stops are excellent bushings for 3/8" holes. Drill out to 3/16 using a drill stop/bushing, then drill 1/64 undersize and ream for close tolerance bolts. Once the centre holes are drilled and clamped up the others can be drilled full size in one go.

Pete
 
Well,life has moved on! I took the fuel tanks off the wings to find that the spar flanges are not countersunk over the nut plates but drilled right out. So the tanks are not held in properly to the wings and the flanges are missing a lot if metal....... The fix devised by Vans for over countersunk holes is only good for one or two areas, not the whole inboard flange. So these wings are toast. I just ordered new wing and fuselage kits from Vans.
Guess I won't be flying by March!!!

Chris:mad:
 
chris mitchell said:
Well,life has moved on! I took the fuel tanks off the wings to find that the spar flanges are not countersunk over the nut plates but drilled right out. So the tanks are not held in properly to the wings and the flanges are missing a lot if metal....... The fix devised by Vans for over countersunk holes is only good for one or two areas, not the whole inboard flange. So these wings are toast. I just ordered new wing and fuselage kits from Vans.
Click to expand...
Did the same guy build the empennage? That is first thing that gets built, so builder skills are the lowest there. Failures in the empennage can be just as fatal as wing failures, so maybe you need a tail kit too :(
 
You might think that planes like these would be rare, but it seems lately that we are seeing a number of examples of astoundingly bad workmanship. It's a tribute to Van that these planes aren't dropping out of the sky. I can't imagine building something that looks like this and then having the testicular fortitude to fly the thing. Rant off....:eek:
 
Mark Dickens said:
You might think that planes like these would be rare, but it seems lately that we are seeing a number of examples of astoundingly bad workmanship. It's a tribute to Van that these planes aren't dropping out of the sky. I can't imagine building something that looks like this and then having the testicular fortitude to fly the thing. Rant off....:eek:
Click to expand...

Most likely it's a tribute to the DAR's that airplanes with this level of workmanship never take to the air - they end up as repair kits like this one did, or get junked outright.
 
airguy said:
Most likely it's a tribute to the DAR's that airplanes with this level of workmanship never take to the air - they end up as repair kits like this one did, or get junked outright.
Click to expand...

I must have mis-read the part about the A&P representing that the kit had been built according to Van's instructions to mean that this thing had actually flown. Thank God it hasn't...
 
The A and P categorically stated that the airframe was built according to plans and instructions, that the workmanship was good to excellent and that the whole thing was well within AC43..... I could post his report but I'm sure the mods/DR wouldn't approve.

The aircraft had had its wings and empennage mounted, engine mounted and just need its cowling finished off.

Happily it had not flown and now I have been right through it I would never have flown in it and certainly could not have expected anyone else to get in it either.

I'm sure someone with better skills and more time than me could rectify all the faults but I have decided to start anew and put the whole thing down to experience.

Happily for my faith in human nature, the seller is offering to help out with the costs of replacement, and to be fair, I have got an OK finish kit plus HS and control surfaces that all seem to be OK, just missing the odd rivet, and sundry other bits and pieces that I can safely use.

What I can never understand is why people make arbitrary decisions to vary Van's plans. I think the VAF participants may give a falsely high view of what goes on in the kit building world - here we see some truly stunning aircraft, completed to the very highest standard. I guess not everyone aspires to the same level!

I wonder how many "completed" aircraft are prevented from flying by DARs?

Thanks to all who have had some input to my recent posts - I will be back soon with a more queries I'm sure when the new kit arrives, and will also do a blog.

A Happy, flying -hour filled, 2014 to everyone. :)

Chris
 
Hey Chris, just for educational purposes, could you post some more pics of the problems you found?
Personally, having not built an RV I would have never found half of the things wrong on my plane had it not been for this website. Information sharing is a tremendous help to us non-A&P guys.
 
IMG_0236.jpg

Angle at front of spar box not properly riveted to box - note the gap which was filled by a non-plan piece of angle inserted transversely

IMG_0303.jpg


This one doesn;t photograph too well - the f-414 had been hacked to get teh spar plate in, and then re-riveted with some pulled rivets - but not very well!

IMG_0304.jpg


Non Van's flap system:

IMG_0297.jpg


Holes in flange for fuel tank not countersunk but drilled out to 1/4 or 5/16.... Van's have a repair for one or two over-countersunk holes, but not really for all holes being bored out like this.

IMG_0291.jpg


I'll upload some more tomorrow.

Good luck Arlie,

Chris
 
Man, that's scary. So what it boils down to is do you even trust the word of a DAR or A&P when they inspect and sign off an airframe as airworthy?
I have a question about the spar flanges? Yours were apparently drilled over size for the nut plates. Does this compromise the structural integrity of the wing?
I know we all strive for perfection because our life is on the line, but especially on the RV-4 where all the holes must be drilled by hand, you can't always be perfect when matching holes for rivets and some will not line up perfectly and have to be slightly oversized to make the part fit. This is especially true when repairing a damaged plane.
I've got to find me a good inspector in East Texas to go over every inch of my plane before it gets buttoned up.
 
Arlie,

Vans have a fix for the spar flange for one or two over-countersunk holes. These holes are are drilled out completely to a diameter of 3/8". There is no structural load data for a repair that involves all 10 holes on both flanges, and won't give ANY assurance on the efficacy of the repair - which would involve fixing s strip on the underside of the flange, (access would involve some de-skinning) putting a slug in each hole held in place with some epoxy or similar, and then countersinking the slug. Review of AC43 suggests that this damage is too extensive, no repair is possible and the only alternative to junking the wings is to replace the whole of both spars :eek::eek::eek: - so yes, the structural integisty is totally compromised. No way I can get these wings signed of in the UK. Anyway imagine at the bottom of a loop, 4G on, wondering if today's the day ....? Or a tail chase, misjudged pull in the excitement, 6G (I've done that).......

I want to go flying, not spend years messing about repairing somebody else's mistakes, so I'm bailing. New kits on order. Must amend my signature!

I think the lesson here is to be VERY suspicious of anyone else's building standards and practices.

Chris
 
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