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Awd2gen

Member
I've been doing a lot of research as of late on purchasing an RV-4 or RV-6 soon. Typically my searches will take me here (this forum), barnstormers, trade a plane and controller. I typically look at what engine, hours, what's on the panel and does it flow well, prop, etc. But I can't help be fear I'm missing something else I should be looking for, for a good quality plane. I've read a lot about pre buy inspections and plan on doing one on anything I intend to purchase but I know you can't catch everything. Soo my question to you all is when I show up to look at a plane that I think is "the one" what questions should I be asking and what should I be looking for to not get fooled by a "pretty panel" or nice paint job??

Thanks for all the help in advance!
 
Are all of Van's Service Bulletins that apply to the model complied with?
How much work and money would be required to comply with all of Van's Service Bulletins?

Are there any ADs against the engine or prop?
Are the ADs for the engine, prop, magneto, radio(s) complied with?
How much work / money would it take to comply with the ADs?

Systems are the weak link on most Experimental Amateur Built aircraft. Systems as in wiring, plumbing, and stuff the builder had to figure out how to do on their own.

Van's Service Bulletins can be check on Van's website here.

ADs can be checked on the FAA website here.
 
Quality

Typically the tail will be the first area you inspect after all the paperwork mentioned in earlier post. The tail is the first part of the build and usually where a lot of quality is lacking if there is any. A prebuy inspection from an experienced RV person is what I would recommend because of all the stories I've heard over the years on the quality of builds. You may get lucky and get a good build without a prebuy, and you may get a lemon. The designer of these planes did a great job designing in good margins when boo boos are made but buyer beware is in order.
 
Thanks guys. That's some of the stuff I'm looking for. The service bullitens and AD's is something that completely slipped my mind. Also I should be able to get those verified in a good pre buy, correct?

The quality of work is definitely something that's important and thanks for pointing out the tail is a good place to start. I'll have to remember that. Stuff like wiring and fuel lines is one of my biggest concerns. I've seen pictures of some that the wiring looks beautiful and others that look like a rats nest that scare me but wasn't sure if it was unjustified fear.
 
See if you have an RV builder near you to go over his plane - and what he thinks is important. Then have the builder with you, if possible, when looking to buy.

Carl
 
I've built, baught and sold 4 RVs and 3 others

First and foremost an RV is a Lycoming powered airplane like so many others, AOPA and others have a ton of great reading out there on purchasing an aircraft.

As for RVs specifically... as amateur-built implies there are a few extras to watch for.

#1 - Is it overall well built. Build quality varies widely; although almost all are perfectly acceptable all around. Sadly that means there is a small set that are not. You should find a place where there are many RVs (fly-in or local RV-heavy airport) and ask someone to show you a "well built" RV and compare it to a "less well built" There are subtle things like rivet spacing, straight rivet lines, straight sheet lines, correctly bonded sheets, smoking rivets (incorrectly driven).

#2 - Don't be too picky. No aircraft, brand-new to 100-yo is "perfect". They all have blemishes, rash, systems that are in various versions of "working". The critical thing to realize is that most everything on an aircraft is designed to fail slowly over a long time. Catastrophic failure modes make overly-interesting flying experiences. Expect things to be in various states of working, negotiate.

#3 - Service Bulletin / AD compliance; These are all safety issue and go to your life flying, ensure all SBs are either known-not-know (negotiate fixing them into the price) or are known-resolved/ongoing. For example, all RVs with wing tanks share the same SB for securing the internal fuel fittings. This is a PITA to fix as you have to take the tank off, unseal the inspection plate, wire tie/secure all the internal fittings then seal it all back again. It takes a full weekend to do, and it's messy. On older RVs it is rarely done. I forgot to do this one on my RV-4. You guessed it, it came off and caused several loss of engine power events and a lot of head scratching before I found and complied. If you're looking at the RV-3; it has three critical structural SBs, be extra careful there, do your homework.

#4 - Landing gear concerns; RVs are under-built and do not meet Part 23 requirements for landing gear. Particularly on the tail-wheel aircraft (excluding the -8) the engine mount is the landing gear mount. This causes it to fatigue more quickly. Look for small cracks in the joints. They are not unusual and easily fixed, but again... takes a weekend and a good welder. If you find any cracks you should always fix them immediately.

#5 - Tail skins have been an issue over the years on various older models, make sure they are the newer thicker size if you can. If not, negotiate fixing it.

I hope this helps.
 
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I've been looking for that "perfect" RV to buy for over a month now. I have written emails and spoken to several sellers in length about their planes. So far I haven't found "the one" that would warrant a plane ticket or long drive to see it in person. Like others have said, ask lots of questions and get as many pictures as you can. my main concern is the engine. Was it a new 0-time or a rebuild? Who did the work and does the plane have all the logs? Damage history? Cracked canopy? Almost everyone will tell you its a quality build but you can't determine that until you actually see it in person. Try to get some pictures of the rivet lines in different light settings to see if the were set correctly and not driven with a jack hammer. I've seen several that look like they went through a hail storm. To me the panel is not a deal breaker. Most older RV's have original guages, so try to keep that in mind. most panels are built to the builders liking and may not suit your taste. But aslong as you have a good airframe and engine, the interior can be changed out rather easily.
 
Lessons learned

Here are the biggest lessons I learned when I bought my RV-8 in 2007.

1. Not everyone does as good of job of building and documenting as the average person on this forum! When I took possession I got a set of plans, the builders manual, Vans' electrical system diagram, and engine logbook, an airframe logbook, FAA documents, and some miscellaneous manuals for the avionics. I should have asked at the prebuy for the rest of the documentation. The lack of documentation would have told me a lot about the builder.

2. The plane passed the pre-buy with minor squawks but I should have had someone that knew RVs do the pre-buy. Everything was safe but not everything was done well. For instance, the wiring was a rats nest.

I now have flown it about 700 hours, rebuilt the panel, replaced cylinders, rewired pretty much everything and have it like I like it. There was some real financial and emotional pain and suffering along the way though. It's been a love-hate relationship with "Tango Delta".
 
Lots of useful info. I think I'm going to try and make a question template to send sellers with planes I'm really interested in, using some of this info.
 
Lotsa good stuff here already, but find out as much as you can about the builder, skills and attitudes. A haphazard builder is unlikely to turn out a quality product and vice versa. Also, regardless of the prepurchase inspection, expect one major surprise. (Even on a spam can).

Ed
 
Bubblehead said:
Not everyone does as good of job of building and documenting as the average person on this forum! When I took possession I got a set of plans, the builders manual, Vans' electrical system diagram, and engine logbook, an airframe logbook, FAA documents, and some miscellaneous manuals for the avionics. I should have asked at the prebuy for the rest of the documentation. The lack of documentation would have told me a lot about the builder.
Click to expand...

I've done several pre-buys for potential purchasers and I agree with the above comments. I invariably find that the quality of the documentation is a direct reflection on the quality of the aircraft. Really good aircraft are built by meticulous personalities...and meticulous personalities invariably generate meticulous documentation...it's in their nature. In particular you should look at the documentation for the systems electricals and avionics. At the very least you want proper quality drawings that render the systems fully comprehensible. If all you get is a couple of incomplete amateurish hand-drawn pen sketches then you should be very wary.

In fact I know of several avionics shops that will not work on Experimental aircraft if the electrical systems/avionics are not well documented. It just takes them too long to try and work out what is going on.

Of course, regardless of documentation, the bottom line is that you need a very experienced person to do a pre-buy. But in fact finding the right person to do the pre-buy may be even harder than finding the right plane. A pre-buy inspector who has built a similar model but to a very low standard is likely to approve any aircraft that meets the standards of his own....regardless of how low that standard is.
 
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what the 'BEST FIT' for YOU!?!

Michael, some great comments already....but when I bought mine, I thought one thing. Now, having owned it for 8 years, I probably have changed some of my ideas on what is a deal-breaker, or a must-have!

If you equate it to buying a car, or a house, you can imagine that the ideal car, with bald tires, isn't going to cause a ton of concern, as you can ascertain the price of replacement, and have it done easily.

kinda the same with a plane; if it's perfect, but you hate the green upholstery, you can easily pick up the phone and order what you want, for $XXXX. IF the paint and interior is fabulous, but the build is sketchy, well, that can be hard or impossible to fix, even at a great price.

IF it is nicely rivetted together, but has the 'rats nest' wiring, that's a much bigger deal. I knew that I was weak on the electronic knowledge side, and did not want to be chasing a noisy comm radio or poorly grounded antennae, so when I found a plane built by an avionics tech, I gave that a lot of weight.

If the firewall forward is messy, and you are good with a wrench, or a hangar-mate is, that might be easier to deal with...a few new gaskets and such.

If you fly it a bit and don't like the steam panel....wow, for less that $1000 here on VAF, you can acquire a nice little EFIS to get you into the digital age!

I think you see where I'm going....there will be things that pop up later, and you have to deal with them, and hopefully they aren't big ticket items, but you have to be ready for some unknowns.

( there are known knowns, the known unknowns, there are unknown knowns, and then there are the unknown unknowns!) :rolleyes:
 
Here is the process I have always followed:

1. Find a candidate plane that meets your requirements (hours, equipment, etc.)
2. Ask for a digital copy of the log books (I offer to pay to have them scanned at Kino's if they are not digital) - It saves a trip there. You can tell from the logs if the plane has been maintained well or not, and most importantly the flying history. Does it have 100 hours a year and regular maintenance, or 5 hours in the past 2 years with just a condition inspection logged. - Was camguard used in in infrequent flyer, etc.
3. Ask for some close up photos of things like paint, interior, rivets.
4. If everything checks out from your untrained eye, send the logs and photos to whoever is doing your pre-buy and have them check them out before you go to the expense of starting a pre-buy. Expect to pay for this review, but that research time will come directly off of the pre-buy if you move forward.
 
Captain Avgas said:
I invariably find that the quality of the documentation is a direct reflection on the quality of the aircraft. Really good aircraft are built by meticulous personalities...and meticulous personalities invariably generate meticulous documentation...it's in their nature.
Click to expand...

I invariably find such generalizations to be highly questionable ;)

Look at paperwork for legality. Look at the airplane for airworthiness.
 
DanH said:
I invariably find such generalizations to be highly questionable ;)

Look at paperwork for legality. Look at the airplane for airworthiness.
Click to expand...


I agree.

An old pro I respect told me there are actually 2 airplanes you are looking at in any purchase transaction...

The one in the logbooks.

The one on the ramp.

Both require detailed examination.
 
Aggie78 said:
I agree.

An old pro I respect told me there are actually 2 airplanes you are looking at in any purchase transaction...

The one in the logbooks.

The one on the ramp.

Both require detailed examination.
Click to expand...

And very good advise too Aggie. But no-one is seriously suggesting that any prospective buyer should make an aircraft purchase decision based solely on the aircraft documentation....but in my opinion it's a very good place to start for purely practical reasons.

The spectrum of build quality in the Experimental category is enormously broad....from the death trap to the sublime. And prospective purchasers need to have mechanisms to quickly and inexpensively separate the wheat from the chaff. The key to successful buying is to cast the widest net while at the same time avoiding unnecessary and expensive travel all over the country or paying good money for pre-purchase inspections on distant dud aircraft.

The answer is to compile and assess as much information about the aircraft as is reasonably available before you travel to inspect it. To the uninitiated that obviously means asking for a pile of photos. But you can do more...and that's my point. In this digital age where virtually everyone can scan and email attachments it makes sense to ask for some documentation.
 
DanH said:
I invariably find such generalizations to be highly questionable ;)

Look at paperwork for legality. Look at the airplane for airworthiness.
Click to expand...

Dan, is right on here!

I did right a 2-part article for Kitplanes on pre buys that was published recently. You might consider browsing through that to get some ideas. Overall, here is some guidance:
  • do not get emotionally attached until you have had an inspection by a qualified 3rd party, not just another builder. I have a few customers with buyers remorse because they did not do that
  • no matter how pretty it looks, take everything off and carfully inspect the construction
  • the logbooks are just as important, especially in the case of amateur-built aircraft. without certain signoffs, Phase I as an example, it may not be airworthy or eligible to leave the test area. In one case I inspected an airplane that had been flying 7 years and had 3 owners without Phase I ever being signed off
  • Fly the airplane if it is airworthy, paying attention to engine operating paramters, and avionics operations

Take your time. :)

Vic
 
vic is bang on.....

vic syracuse said:
[*]no matter how pretty it looks, take everything off and carefully inspect the construction!!!!!
[*]....... without certain signoffs, Phase I as an example, it may not be airworthy or eligible to leave the test area. In one case I inspected ...(...)... that had been flying 7 years and had 3 owners without Phase I ever being signed off
[*]Fly the airplane if it is airworthy, paying attention to engine operating parameters, and avionics operations
[/LIST]

Take your time. :)

Vic
Click to expand...

oh, wait.....I thought Vic was talking about the folly of looking for love in smoky bars after consuming a lot of bevvys!

never mind! :D
 
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