[brian]

Do you folks practice a "return to runway" scenario? When I took my RV training with Jan Bussell, we did it several times at 400' (in actual takeoff conditions - 400' AGL). I've been meaning to try it in my own RV, so I went out for awhile this afternoon and did it over and over for about an hour at 3500-4000'.

Assuming 100 mph takeoff climbout speed, I could easily do it in 400', mostly in about 300'. I did a couple hundred feet a couple times, but that's cuz even after chopping the throttle to idle, the aircraft would climb 1-200' more before losing altitude.

So then I'd get in a climb attitude, 100 mph, chop the throttle, then wait until altitude started falling, then kick it around 180 degrees at about 45 degree bank, 85-90 mph. Sometimes 300' if I did it well, 400' pretty easily. I found I needed a fair amount of back pressure to keep airspeed (and altitude loss) from getting excessive.

This was with 1/2 fuel, no passenger. I should also test it with full fuel and a passenger, but I'm not too sure my wife will be very thrilled with the idea.

Do you practice this? What numbers do you use and what results do you get?

 

[Jason Krause]

Practice that often!

After practicing the return to runway in a few RV's I had to do it for real in a Kit Fox at CHD....although my heart was beating, knew exactly what to do.

Half full and slow, I have made it at about 250 feet AGL in my -6A.....but that seems right on the edge, also 200ft in a -9. I've tried a few different scenarios on a 5k ft. dirt strip, altitude seems to be better than airspeed in this situation. I find getting through the turn with the nose pointed down works best.

Having the altitude in the middle of the runway can make things a little tricky. I like to get the wheels off, hold it low for a few, build speed then pitch up and climb fast.

Did some return to runway practice at DVT one night after the tower was closed. Having the parallel runways made it much easier. Just had to avoid banging a runway edge light with the wing tip.

I highly recommend this type of practice flying.

 

[BobTurner]

Remember that unless there's a parallel runway you need more than a 180. In fact, to be conservative, you should try a 270 followed by a 90 degree turn the other way. That's twice as much as a 180!

In theory best glide IAS (no wind) varies as the square root of the weight, e.g., if you're 20% heavier, use a 10% higher speed.

 

[jetdriven]

This has been discussed ad nauseum on Beechtalk. It is such a hazardous maneuver that the very attempt of it is cutting it close. Mooney proficiency clinic and Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program have all removed it from their syllabus after fatal crashes.

Around 700-800' is where you might be able to pull it off. And doing so requires a 45-60 degree bank at close to stall speed. Any mismanagement is going to result in a stall/spin/crash/burn. Unless faced with a brick wall, I am taking the straight ahead +/- 45 degree turn method. Crash the plane, take the insurance payoff, live to fight another day.

 

[brian]

Remember that unless there's a parallel runway you need more than a 180. In fact, to be conservative, you should try a 270 followed by a 90 degree turn the other way. That's twice as much as a 180!

I've heard this, but my experience in training with Jan and in today's session with my own -6A is that if you're fairly aggressive about turning it (45 degrees bank & no delay), there really isn't that much offset. When I was doing it today, I was using power lines as a guide (the only straight terrain feature in NH) and not the compass, so I checked finishing altitude when I was back over the power line and lined up with it. So it probably was a bit more than 180 degrees.

 

[simpkinsona]

I have practiced this at altitude to find the best techniques for myself and my airplane at the initial climb speeds I use. I don't have a hard an fast number for all situations however. It varies with all the variables of the individual flight. In some situations I would not attempt it unless I've turned crosswind already. I use a conservative approach to this maneuver. I take off and as I climb I judge when I have enough altitude to turn around. I do this on every take-off. Don't get into the mind set that you can always do it from X amount of altitude.

-Andy

 

[MauiLvrs]

I've heard this, but my experience in training with Jan and in today's session with my own -6A is that if you're fairly aggressive about turning it (45 degrees bank & no delay.

Interesting that your experience defies the laws of math and physics.

Try this...
Go to the airport.
Take off - climb - accelerate to 100
Make a 45 deg bank 180 degree turn.

Like Bob said ... you will not find the runway in front of you ... unless there is a significant cross wind to blow you back over it.

Math and physics...

 

[Snowflake]

I've heard this, but my experience in training with Jan and in today's session with my own -6A is that if you're fairly aggressive about turning it (45 degrees bank & no delay), there really isn't that much offset.

To quote another famous engineer, "you cannae change the laws of physics, captain!" Unless you're turning in the vertical plane, like a split-s, on a day with no wind you can't make a 180 degree turn from the runway centerline, and end up pointing at the runway.

The sneaky way to build in some margin on this manoeuver, is to *not* correct for crosswind drift on climb out. Drift downwind a bit. The farther downwind, the less turning you'll need to line up again. I haven't practiced this manoeuver yet, but I probably should. I have in mind that allowing, or even introducing, a downwind drift while climbing, up to something like 500', and then reeling that drift back in as I gain altitude margin, might be the best practice.

But maybe I over-think these things...

 

[gtmule]

180 isn't enough turn of course, but I submit that no more than 200, maybe 220 is required if you're willing to approach the runway from something less than perfectly parallel...it's moore of a teardrop shape than something that looks like a procedure turn

 

[ao.frog]

I use...

.... 900' AGL as minimum for the return.

The last point on my "before takeoff checklist" is:
ENGINE FAIL PROCEDURE - REWIEW

Under this point, I consider terrain, weather, wind, RWY-length etc and make a mental plan for low altitude engine failure.

The general AGL altitudes I use are:

Below 300: max 30* of turn
Beetween 300 and 600: max 90* of turn
Beetween 600 and 900: max 180* of turn
Above 900: CONSIDER returning to RWY.

I have found that when I use these altitudes, I'll have a reasonable amount of time to analyze, decide and react and then have reasonable time and altitude to find a place to set the bird down, and finally concentrate on making a good landing.

The 3-6-9 numbers are easy to remember when you are in a hurry too. (that is when the fan is spooling down in front of you)

 

[jetdriven]

To quote another famous engineer, "you cannae change the laws of physics, captain!" Unless you're turning in the vertical plane, like a split-s, on a day with no wind you can't make a 180 degree turn from the runway centerline, and end up pointing at the runway.

The sneaky way to build in some margin on this manoeuver, is to *not* correct for crosswind drift on climb out. Drift downwind a bit. The farther downwind, the less turning you'll need to line up again. I haven't practiced this manoeuver yet, but I probably should. I have in mind that allowing, or even introducing, a downwind drift while climbing, up to something like 500', and then reeling that drift back in as I gain altitude margin, might be the best practice.

But maybe I over-think these things...

Another method to help is always turn into the crosswind for your return maneuver. Im still not advocating returning to the runway.

 

[dav1111]

I really like Alf Olav Frog's 3/6/9 formula. I also like Byron's "turn into the crosswind". Having said that, my engine failure on talkoff is: First pick out the best possible landing spot in front of me and then determine if I have time to go left or right for a better spot and if altitude allows continue the return to the airport always keeping in mind that the other landing / crash sites I have picked out are also options.

Making a 45 degree nose down bank with an engine failure on takeoff with passengers on board isn't going to allow the pilot to calm the passengers and get them ready for a crash landing.

 

[Norman CYYJ]

The thing about engine failures is that you never know when they are going to happen and all the training and practice in turning back might just get you into a serious world of hurt.

 

[Joness0154]

The thing about engine failures is that you never know when they are going to happen and all the training and practice in turning back might just get you into a serious world of hurt.

I agree. When practicing turn back maneuvers you're expecting it to happen and can start the turn immediately.

In a real life emergency, I suspect it will take longer to react and start the turn back due to the surprise of the situation.

The turn back has killed many pilots. If I have a suitable landing area ahead of me, I'm using it.

 

[airguy]

Making a 45 degree nose down bank with an engine failure on takeoff with passengers on board isn't going to allow the pilot to calm the passengers and get them ready for a crash landing.

Saving the passengers and calming the passengers do not carry the same priority. I'll shut up and fly the plane every time when faced with that choice, and let them yell at me later because they are able to.

 

[TruTrakAndrew]

FWIW

Gliders use 200ft for the minimum return to same runway...ALWAYS turn into the wind. This is under ideal conditions.

In fact...a forced return to runway is part of the check ride in a glider.

Mine was done at about 400 feet and I had slip HARD and use full spoiler to not overfly the runway...still used lots of runway.

I practice turning back regularly. My personal experience in the -4 is usually being too high not having enough runway in front after the turn...darn -4 just climbs so well! Not that you can't make it work, just have to really pay attention.

 

[RV8R999]

I agree. When practicing turn back maneuvers you're expecting it to happen and can start the turn immediately.

In a real life emergency, I suspect it will take longer to react and start the turn back due to the surprise of the situation.

The turn back has killed many pilots. If I have a suitable landing area ahead of me, I'm using it.

build a pilot delay time into your practice..

Chop the throttle..one potatoe, two potatoe, three potatoe and react...

 

[flyboy1963]

...why the runway?

to add to the neverendingdebate;

at an airport with a 'large' footprint, do you consider that a return to the airport, not necessarily the runway, to be preferable? This varies with each field/geography etc. ( especially if you haven't the altitude for a 270 to the runway! Heck, it probably has a 737 sitting in the middle of it now!....it's no longer yours.)

I hear good arguments that ending up somewhere on the field, on a ramp, taxiway, in the grass, etc. where there are emergency responders that can get to you and get your unconscious butt out of the plane while covering you with foam, is much better than being 1.5 miles away in a lake or forest, or schoolyard.

 

[Joness0154]

to add to the neverendingdebate;

at an airport with a 'large' footprint, do you consider that a return to the airport, not necessarily the runway, to be preferable? This varies with each field/geography etc. ( especially if you haven't the altitude for a 270 to the runway! Heck, it probably has a 737 sitting in the middle of it now!....it's no longer yours.)

I hear good arguments that ending up somewhere on the field, on a ramp, taxiway, in the grass, etc. where there are emergency responders that can get to you and get your unconscious butt out of the plane while covering you with foam, is much better than being 1.5 miles away in a lake or forest, or schoolyard.

I agree with that. Some of the larger GA airports I fly out of (DPA, for example) have enough real estate that depending on which runway I depart from its an easy turn to airport real estate should something occur on takeoff.

In either case, small or large airport, I'm only making the turn if I can guarantee I will make it 100%.

 

[tjo]

I am no physiology expert, but keep in mind that your fine motor skills can go to **** in a handbasket in this kind of stressful situation. Yes training would help, but for the vast majority of folks, we will need to maintain very large margins to ensure that we stay away from a stall/spin/crash/burn scenario.

Tim

 

[Bavafa]

I practiced this maneuver first up high and then at the airport. The condition was little to calm wind, no passenger (obviously) and I would give myself 3 seconds delaying time to account for the element of surprise.

These are what I learned:
1- Even though I was expecting it and had the engine running, my heart was still pounding hard
2- Steep turns yielded much better results, 60 degree was far better and staying just above the stall speed
3- The lowest AGL I tried was 600? and had extra as I would have to get it down to the runway otherwise would have ran out
4- I noticed that I would still subconsciously still have my right rudder (from the climb) and would have to remind myself to let off the right rudder

I started having a procedure for each take off, make note of wind (cross wind will help much with this) and set a minimum altitude for returning back, but I have got lazy again and not often practice those mental note prior to any take off

P.S. My home airport is in a very unfriendly area for straight in off field landing, but for real low AGL, we have an option of taking a taxi way which use to be the old runway.

 

[jetdriven]

One option that is a good one is an airport with 4 runways. You make a 90 degree turn and you are on base for the other runway. Preplanned and briefed, of course.

 

[gtmule]

4- I noticed that I would still subconsciously still have my right rudder (from the climb) and would have to remind myself to let off the right rudder

This would mean you should probably make your plan for a left turn in light crosswinds (better to be low and slow with top rudder, than bottom!).

 

[Bavafa]

This would mean you should probably make your plan for a left turn in light crosswinds (better to be low and slow with top rudder, than bottom!).

If there is no to little wind and all equal, I would certainly make a left turn as I have a better view of the runway in my side-by-side plane. Also, even in a steep turn, my 7A stays pretty coordinated and requires no rudder so the best thing is just to let off the rudder to stay coordinated specially so close to the ground and near the stall speed.

 

[MauiLvrs]

 

[Snowflake]

Without any context that picture doesn't really add to the discussion. Did that pilot try a Split-S to get back to the airport? There's no way to tell.

 

[Joness0154]

Without any context that picture doesn't really add to the discussion. Did that pilot try a Split-S to get back to the airport? There's no way to tell.

I had to do some google-ing to find the article:

http://www.fresnobee.com/2012/08/26/2965410/multiple-victims-in-small-plane.html

Witnesses say the plane had apparent engine problems and dipped downward while attempting a turn just north of Lake Tahoe Airport.

Now we all know how "accurate" witnesses to plane crashes can be, but it could be the case. Keep in mind South Lake Tahoe is about 6,300ft AMSL.

 

[MauiLvrs]

Without any context that picture doesn't really add to the discussion. Did that pilot try a Split-S to get back to the airport? There's no way to tell.

(Errrr... Sorry, Link didn't post right. Sometimes smart phones aren't so smart...)

http://www.rgj.com/article/20120826/NEWS/120826001/None-survive-Tahoe-plane-crash

Appears ....
Engine problems
Turn towards airport
Spin
Night w/half moon

Sadly seems whenever this topic is started there is an accident ...

Keep in mind South Lake Tahoe is about 6,300ft AMSL.

It this case ...
DA likely was around 8000 feet (maybe a little more. )
10,000 foot mountains west, south and east.

 

[fmiddleton]

My minimum is 1000'...I'm a low time pilot hoping to become a high time pilot.