prkaye

Well Known Member
Is welding a really big deal? Is it something I can learn to do on my own, in my garage? What sort of investment in equipment is required?
Or is this something I would be better advised to outsource to the pros?
 
is for pros espcially if your talking engine mounts.. difficult to tell without years of experinece and x ray inspection on tube welds if thorough fussion has been acheived ..yeah you can learn in the back yard but some things like your mount (mentioned in another post) are something you will want a certified welder to do or at lest i would and i have had a/c structures welding and have built trailers(heavily loaded) deer stands 20+ feet tall and put my kid and myself in i still will not weld on my plane unless its non structural. im sure others will disagree YMMV
 
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Welding

Okay, I disagree--sorta. Welding is something that takes skill, but it isn't that difficult to learn. I would suggest spending a few days at the welding workshop at Oshkosh as a start. And while x-rays are nice, you can learn a lot with a good hacksaw. Cut up your practice work and have someone who knows examine it. I grew up with a father who was a certified aircraft welder and he taught me a lot of "tricks" that you won't learn, but you can do good work with practice. Not having welded seriously in probably 20 years, I wouldn't touch anything structural, but I could get back up to speed. Try it and see how it goes. Some people are quick learners. Good luck!

Bob Kelly
 
Welding components that will hurt you if they fail is not something to take lightly. There are lots and lots of variables. Enough to fill a book.

You can get some decent equipment for ~$500. Better for $1000. Better than that for $2000. You get the picture.

I've written and reviewed welding procedures and inspection processes for pressure vessels, but wouldn't trust my own welding skills on a critical airplane component. But I can weld the heck out of jigs, engine stands, and other things that won't get me into too much trouble if they fail!

Point is, it takes a fair amount of skill and practice with every type of welding process. Unless you have exceptional ability, decent equipment and the experience to know what is/is not a good weld, then I'd suggest sticking with the non-critical welding.

To sum it up, respectfully - if you have to ask, I wouldn't recommend you do any of your own aircraft welding. Do some more research. EAA has some good general videos. Lots on the Internet.

2 cents
 
Weld what?

prkaye said:
...is this something I would be better advised to outsource to the pros?
Just curious - what do you plan to weld? I have not needed to weld anything for my RV8...

Just read another thread where you wrote about an engine mount. I guess that answers my question!
 
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What???

Phil,
What sort of welding are you talking about? Electric with an arc, or Oxy/Acetylene for aircraft structure.

An old EAA tech advisor gave me a lot of good pointers when I built my Cassutt fuselage and motor mount with oxy/acet. I also had a booklet on welding and practiced on a lot of short 4130 chromemoly pieces. After a couple of weeks of trying, asking more questions and trying again, I finally had a pretty good looking cluster welded up (three tubes converging on each other, onto a fourth one, like on a longeron). I showed an A&P/IA the weld and he asked if I minded if he destroyed it testing it. He put it in a vise and beat the sh** out of it with a small sledge hammer until he broke all three pieces off the longeron. When none of the welds had broken but only the tubing just outside of the weld, he said that would pass because they now were proven-the tubing broke, not the welds.

So I went home, tacked the entire fuselage together and by that time had even more experience and did another cluster which passed and the fuselage was finish welded.

Later, the airplane was tested to 7 g's at an air race, then raced, flown for several years and sold.

Many homebuilts are still welded up in garages and shops and an A&P/IA can inspect your trial welds. With practice, you can learn too.
Go for it, ;)
 
Ok, so it sounds like it might not be a good idea for me to attempt welding things like an engine mount. Next question is, how can i get things like this welded? Are there shops in most major cities that provide this service? (how about Ottawa?) How do I know who to trust welding aircraft parts?
 
usefulness

it was not my intent to discourage, only that i know you are building an aluminum plane. its not worth the investment and risk just for a peice or two.if you were gonna do the whole thing (tube and fabric) id say go for it.
the cheapest way would be oxy accetylene but like pierre said lots of 4130 stubs and practice.(still cheap though) if you are like the most builders you will enjoy learning a new skill. it is a nice skill to have since so many little things can be fixed quickly at home. i would call vans or egg to see who does theirs. im not big on the car engine in a plane so my knowlege is limited in that area. please no car v/s lyc wars just a preference i have read all those fights already :D depending on your area try the yellow pages you may be surprised. i live near a steel mill,esab cutting and welding manufacturer. the local tech college has a great skills and cant keep up with the demand for good welders. there out there just gotta look.
 
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cytoxin said:
it was not my intent to discourage, only that i know you are building an aluminum plane. its not worth the investment and risk just for a peice or two.if you were gonna do the whole thing (tube and fabric) id say go for it.
the cheapest way would be oxy accetylene but like pierre said lots of 4130 stubs and practice.(still cheap though) if you are like the most builders you will enjoy learning a new skill. it is a nice skill to have since so many little things can be fixed quickly at home......
Excellent point here... I just welded up a nice kayak rack for my truck last night. Used my nice little Northern Tool MIG machine for it. Lots of splatter with the flux core wire, but it's strong as heck.

One other point to think about. Regardless of who welds the engine mount, don't forget about the structural considerations of the whole arrangement. The welds may be works of art and perfect structurally, but if the tubing buckles or bends under a load, you're still in trouble. Just didn't want you to miss this point.
 
Couldn't agree more

.

Many homebuilts are still welded up in garages and shops and an A&P/IA can inspect your trial welds. With practice, you can learn too.
Go for it, ;)[/QUOTE]

A couple of years back I had a rudder pedal shear off and had to re-weld it...Definatly a structural piece!

I started welding but realised somehow I had forgotten how to gas weld...All sorts of nasty crystaline deposits and a terrible weld...HUH?...I used to be really good.

Turns out I was using a 1/8th rod....way too thick and it was cooling the weld almost immediatly...A guy sent me some refresher instructions via email.

That evening I was making fully certifiable welds.

Did the beat the snot out of it test and cut some sample thru with a hacksaw...Sould show no impurities of holes thru the weld.

Every now and then I go and practice just so I'm sharp...I would have no hesitation in welding up my own engine mount today.

YMMV.

Frank
 
It isn't certifiable until the welder is certified. The welder isn't ceritified untill he has done his plates and had then sent off for xray. As a IA I would not go near it with my pen unless I had seen the certification papers of the welder. Looking and saying it's ok and putting pen to paper is another.
 
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RV505 said:
It isn't certifiable until the welder is certified. The welder isn't ceritified untill he has done his plates and had then sent off for xray. As a IA I would not go near it with my pen unless I had seen the certification papers of the welder. Looking and saying it's ok and putting pen to paper is another.
I believe the person above was trying to say he was confident in his work.

What welding standards does the FAA recognize/reference? ASME? AWS?
 
I would like to hear about this too.

It is my understanding there is no such thing as a certified aircraft welder.

35 years ago I was a certified pipe welder...some states have certification programs, but the FAA?

Anyway, chapter and verse please, from the FARs.
 
American Welding Society AWS-171 & AMS-STD-1595 These are the standards devloped for welding in the aircraft industry... The devils in the details! Even though the Fars have instructions for welding the manufaturer info supersedes the FARs.. For a homebuilt it doesn't matter. You can use gurella glue. However a production aircraft has welding standards.. Example, if you welded a aircraft or component using the FAR's and didn't use the technical documents provided by the aircraft/ component manufacturer you would be in violation.. And if it crashed you would be liable.. What suprises me is all the repair stations pushing them selfs off as certified arn't really certified at all!


HERE GO TO School
http://weldpro.us/training.

http://engineers.ihs.com/collections/abstracts/aws-d171.htm
 
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"It isn't certifiable until the welder is certified..."

An IA is supposed to be able to determine if a weld is aceptable, the welder being certified is just -your- means of doing that.

If there is nothing in the aircraft maintenance manual regarding welded repairs (methods, certified welder, etc), or there is no maintenace manual (as is the case for many airplanes constructed of steel tube, then people only have to use FAR 43 and AC43.13 "acceptable methods and practices".

Unless the weld was made with MIG, I doubt that any weld that was done in accordance with AC43.13, was pre-heated and stress relieved, and adheres to a proper visual inspection is going to fail below its design load (assuming is was engineered properly). 'certified' welder or not.

Not that MIG isnt certifiable, from what I have read, its too easy for a non-pro to make a good looking weld which isn't actually strong. With gas, if you make a cold weld (bad) that looks good, its probably a miracle.

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For the original poster;
If all you want to weld is one job, leave it to a pro. If you plan on doing more extensive welding; start with gas, get a lightweight torch like the harris 15, go around during "clean-up" week and grab up some discarded bicycles (many of which are made of expensive 4130) and start practicing.
Thats probably the cheapest way to decide if its something you want to do, baring borrowing rig from a neighbor.

tinmantech.com has good info.
the meco midget is a good little torch, but you might need a slightly bigger backup torch (like the harris 15) for welding large clusters.
 
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RV505 said:
American Welding Society AWS-171 & AMS-STD-1595 These are the standards devloped for welding in the aircraft industry... The devils in the details! Even though the Fars have instructions for welding the manufaturer info supersedes the FARs..


HERE GO TO School
http://weldpro.us/training.

http://engineers.ihs.com/collections/abstracts/aws-d171.htm
Standards are not rules, and they are not FARs...of course there are standards (PMAs and TSOs) for manufacturing certified components.

I went to your school...1 week? I went to welding school for 6 months full time on the G.I. bill in 1972.

My own I/A has made the statement to me many times that there is no such thing as a certified aircraft welder. I hope he is right or my airplanes will all fall out of the sky (including a couple I have sold).
 
welding results and quality.

prkaye said:
Is welding a really big deal? Is it something I can learn to do on my own, in my garage? What sort of investment in equipment is required?
Or is this something I would be better advised to outsource to the pros?
...What you're really asking is if you can weld. Budget? Large amperage tig is for results. Whether you paid 20 bucks to an heir or $7000 to a supplier, the machinery need be the same. Materials? rods-milspec, aerospace, FDA grade. Inert gasses are argon, helium, neon, etc. Absolutely no diluting with nitrogen or CO2. Safety? A firewatch is a helper with a large bucket of water and a wet rag. Goggles must be safety glass, impregnable to enormous gas explosions. Thick fire clothing must shield every inch of your body. It's made of woven asbestos, leather, and 1/2 inch thick wool. Just gloves and gogles don't cut it. Technique? You've got to find it. More than anything, welding is pushing away bad standards.
 
Perhaps...

prkaye said:
Ok, so it sounds like it might not be a good idea for me to attempt welding things like an engine mount. Next question is, how can i get things like this welded? Are there shops in most major cities that provide this service? (how about Ottawa?) How do I know who to trust welding aircraft parts?


Maybe you could cut and assemble everything with little "tack-welds" to hold it all in place. Then transport the whole thing to a "certified" (or other talented/qualified) welder to complete it. A decent Lincoln welder (MIG/TIG) can be had for as little as $1500 or so, for the tacks.

And as far as tradesmen, I'm sure there are great welders in your area. Start with an internet search for welding shops close by. You're looking for someone with at least a couple of years of experience (and maybe a little maturity) who's an honest judge of their own work.

Good luck!
 
Welding is NO BIG DEAL, especially oxy-acetylene. Pretty simple and with just a little bit of practice, you can be making airworthy welds.

Welding an engine mount, for example, IS a big deal. The welds themselves are trivial. Jigging it so it comes out straight (AND fits) after all that heating, stretching and shrinking is very very very hard. It's probably the most difficult aircraft component you could choose to weld. If you're bent on making your own mount (why not just buy a stupid mount?), find someone in the area that's done it before to help you with it. This is one place where experience most DEFINATELY counts.

Good luck.
 
Hey Phil

Talk to Dale Lamport, he might be able to help you out. He has built a number of welded aircraft, is a licenced AME, and was the local MDRA inspector up until a couple of years ago. Not only that, he splurged on a TIG welder at Osh and might like the opportunity to use it.

Cheers