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pilot28906

Well Known Member
I am planning on starting on the emp soon and see that the manual says start with the HS. The VS looks less complex; is there any reason that you must start with the HS?

Thanks,
John
 
"Must" is a strong word, but put it this way...

The HS has a BOTTOM.

If I need to expand on that lemme know... :rolleyes:
 
My opinion...

...and you get what you paid for it.

VS is easier (one spar, smaller part, easier access). Either is fine to start. I'm only just completing my emp, so whether that is a strong or weak indicator of reliability of advice... you'll have to choose. You won't go wrong either way, just get building.
 
dan said:
"Must" is a strong word, but put it this way...

The HS has a BOTTOM.

If I need to expand on that lemme know... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

You definitely got a chuckle out of me with that one, Dan. Very good advice and it really reminds me that Van has got this stuff pretty well figured out.
 
My advice is that, hands down, do the VS first. If you search through these threads you'll see MANY builders give this advice as well. The VS is simpler, smaller, and much cheaper if you mess something up the first time around. If you use a swivel flush set it is virtually impossible to dent things up. Just practice a couple rivets first.
 
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Bottom...

No to speak for Dan...BUT....

The bottom part he refers to, means that on your first session of setting rivets, the BOTTOM of the HS (which nobody will typically ever see) is a more "forgiving" place to have a slip of the rivet gun, etc.

In other words, start with the HS. The instructions do this for a reason. If you make a "smiley" when the rivet gun may slip, it will be on an area which will not be seen. By the time you get to the VS, you'll hopefully be riveting with much more confidence :rolleyes:
 
The bottom is out of view

My guess is that Dan is referring to the bottom is out of view, therefore any screwups are not seen.
 
I believe he means all your beginner mistakes and dents can be on the bottom side of the HS where they are not visable:) Personaly, I built about everything at the same time. The Vans directions seem to be arranged to give you a "feel good" boost by totaly completing each piece one at a time. From a time managenment point...this suck. I did as much to every piece of the kit that I could while I was doing that process...such as fluting ALL the ribs at the same time, deburring ALL the holes at the same time, dimpling ALL the skins at the same time, etc, having all the skeletons ready to prime and assemble at the same time, etc. I suppose if your inexperienced at metal fabrication and general shop procedures, I can see Vans way of doing it...you get a taste of each stage, learn as you do it, and mistakes will be isolated to a small number of parts.
 
that's where all the smilies are supposed to go.

wish it worked for me, i've got several more noticeable smilies on the tops of my elevators and HS than i have on the bottoms!

phil kslc
rv10 emp, slobuild wings shipping...
 
Having a "bottom" on the HS is certainly a good thing to keep in mind (if you've never practiced riveting before starting the project) because it is nice not to have mistakes show. However, if you're going to use the HS to practice riveting, you only wil get to set a few of the leading edge bottom side rivets before you have to do some of the top skin rivets anyway. As soon as you rivet up the nose ribs to the forward spar you have to rivet the top skin. And, when you get right down to it, the only nose ribs that are tough to rivet are those on the center rib--that's probably only 5 rivets total that you'll get to practice shooting on the bottom side before you have to go to the top.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the HS has a good number of tricky rivets to buck or squeeze and a couple tricky parts to fabricate. Search out "HS nose ribs" for example and you'll see what I mean. Good luck though. You'll live either order.
 
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alpinelakespilot2000 said:
If you use a swivel flush set it is virtually impossible to dent things up.
Click to expand...
I am the exception - I managed to dent things up with a swivel set! Probably bacause I don't have the rubber gaurd, and I let the set "walk" off the rivet.
If the set center of impact is not fairly centered on the rib, the skin takes a beating. I found that out after the HS was finished and I took the blue plastic off.
 
Let's say one more thing. If you look at the building instructions, the HS is describled very detailed while VS has just few lines like: just build it. So if you are not familiar with metal building it might be easier to start where told as it has been planned so.

I did HS to the riveting stage and then did VS. After both where ready to rivet I riveted everything. :rolleyes:
 
I did the VS first but thats because those 2 long reinforcing bars that connect the HS spar halves were VERY rough/pitted and I got sick of grinding/polishing/sanding them so I moved on to other parts. I ended up doing the HS last.
 
N674P said:
I am the exception - I managed to dent things up with a swivel set! Probably bacause I don't have the rubber gaurd, and I let the set "walk" off the rivet.
If the set center of impact is not fairly centered on the rib, the skin takes a beating. I found that out after the HS was finished and I took the blue plastic off.
Click to expand...
No offense intended, Johnny. I do have one or two dents on my plane from the swivel flush set. Given my clutziness, I'd just have many more if I had used a regular set!

Out of curiousity, what kind of swivel set do you have? On all the swivel sets I've seen it is the rubber guard that holds the set together. If you take the rubber off the whole thing falls apart. (Mine are Cleaveland or Avery and they work absolutely great. You might pick one up since it looks like you've still got quite a bit of riveting ahead. They really are worth it.)
 
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pilot28906 said:
I am planning on starting on the emp soon and see that the manual says start with the HS. The VS looks less complex; is there any reason that you must start with the HS?

Thanks,
John
Click to expand...

Interesting-----------the -10, which is the latest (reflects most current design, accumulation of knowledge, ETC) of the models to be put into production--------says to start with the vert.

Mike
 
HS vs VS

I have :D "smileys" :D on the bottom of my HS. I have them on the top of my HS. I even have them on my VS - WHY? Because I used a swivel set without the rubber sleeve and I worked alone. :mad:

Yup, I got a swivel head set without a rubber sleeve and it walked. The polished face of the set is very slick and if the set isn't straight with your work it will have a tendency to walk. Get one with the rubber sleeve on it - helps prevent walking. I did all the riveting by myself. If you can get a helper to hold the bucking bar while you shoot you'll be much better off. I now have a sleeved set for the rest of the plane.

Also, when all is said and done, the smileys can get covered up. This will be extra weight on the tail but the finish will be smooth. I have seen some tail sections that the individual covered all of his rivets with a bondo type material. He didn't want visible rivets on the tail - personal choice. I don't expect perfection from my building - I'm an amateur builder.

The good news is, I'm stepping out on a really thin limb here, I'll bet every "home builder" that has built an RV has made a smiley at one time or another :eek: . Some have gone as far as to build an entire new empannage after the rest of the plane was built because they were unhappy with the first work they did.

When you make a smiley, smile back at it and keep on building.
 
Smileys

OK... when you look at a golf ball, what do you see? ;)
I'll admit to "several" smileys on some of my surfaces. Think of them as a non-
substanciated aerodynamic enhancement.
Now, keep on pounding rivets.
 
I can't use the swivel flush set to save my life. I use either a cutoff regular set or a regular flush set.

I say the HS first, I had a harder time with the VS myself.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
Out of curiousity, what kind of swivel set do you have? On all the swivel sets I've seen it is the rubber guard that holds the set together.
Click to expand...
I think I got it from ATS, and it's all steel - basically a ball & socket that wraps around the ball enough that it doesn't fall apart.
No offense taken! I do have a lot of riveting left to do, and from what I'm reading here, I think I will get one of those Avery sets. And maybe some other toys while I'm at it. :D As a confirmed tool junkie, I can't buy just one!
Since the revelation when I pulled off the plastic, I've been more careful and almost eliminated those smileys.
 
I'll chip in here with my .02 on the flush sets... as a tool junkie as well I have four sets: swivel with rubber guard, swivel without rubber guard, and a non swivel set with and without the guard.

By far my favorite is the non-swivel set with the rubber guard. I think I got it from Cleveland tool. I have found that it is no harder to rivet with the non swivel set, even when solo. I consistently get far better results and better looking rivets with the non swivel set. It seems to transfer the energy of the gun better than the swivel set - almost as if the swivel mechanism absorbs some of the energy from the rivet gun.

I did all the fuel tank and LE rivets solo with this set, and riveted all the top skins on the wings with a partner using it. I doubt I'll ever use the swivel set again.

YMMV...

Thomas
 
Granted, the HS/VS sequence isn't terribly significant. But when people ask me what advice I offer in building an RV, I say to just simply follow the instructions. I skipped around a bit here and there and paid the price accordingly.
 
TShort said:
By far my favorite is the non-swivel set with the rubber guard. I consistently get far better results and better looking rivets with the non swivel set.


Thomas
Click to expand...


This is my favorite too. I bought a rivet gun with about 80 (not 80 but a lot) different sets and about 10 bucking bars off e-bay and the non-swivel rubber guard set is the best. I have not had any :D to date and that includes having a helper who had never picked up a rivet gun before. I put a pc. of clear packing tape on the metal part which prevents scuffing of the aluminum.
 
Smileys & dents

I had smileys & dents on the bottom of my HS... until I accidentally switched the left and right skins. Now they are on top! There goes the show plane, but who cares I'm still having fun. :D
 
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