C

Captain Avgas

Well Known Member
Those who have been following the Hooker Harness Volume Purchase will know that there are negotiations underway for a Volume Purchase on seats. This is to advise that those negotiations are still underway and I would advise VanAirforce members to stand by and await further advise, which will be forthcoming in due course.
 
From who?

Hi!

Can you let us know who you are planning on doing this through? 6+ pages of the other thread is a lot to wade through to find that info!

Thanks!
 
ccrawford said:
Hi!

Can you let us know who you are planning on doing this through? 6+ pages of the other thread is a lot to wade through to find that info!

Thanks!
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Negotiations are currently pending. That's all I can say at this stage.
 
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Hold on says Doug!

:eek:

"Groups Buys"

Looks like Doug wants to run this show...? Really don't understand why with all the irons he has in his fire... Put me on your list please.
 
LifeofReiley said:
Looks like Doug wants to run this show...? snip
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Don't hold on!!! I'm not involved in this one, Darrell. I want to be person that is contacted by mfgrs/dealers in the *future*.

I've now heard privately from two manufacturers (that I won't mention) that were contacted by 'representatives of the VAF Forums' in regards to group discounts (wasn't me). The manufacturers spoke of the phone call not going well at all and that they would not participate in group discounts in the future. Bridges burned :(.

What I'm trying to do in the future is avoid this kind of thing. If I'm the only contact person the mfgrs/dealers have and they initiate the call to begin with we shouldn't have difficulties.

That's the plan anyway....

Best always,
Doug
 
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idleup said:
Hopefully Classic Aero is not one of the companies that is not going to do a group buy...
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Agreed. Though finding the money will be the tricky bit for me since I just had to lay out eight grand on non-essentials ("non-essentials" being anything not RV related :D )...
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Don't hold on!!! I'm not involved in this one, Darrell. I want to be person that is contacted by mfgrs/dealers in the *future*.

I've now heard privately from two manufacturers (that I won't mention) that were contacted by 'representatives of the VAF Forums' in regards to group discounts (wasn't me). The manufacturers spoke of the phone call not going well at all and that they would not participate in group discounts in the future. Bridges burned :(.

What I'm trying to do in the future is avoid this kind of thing. If I'm the only contact person the mfgrs/dealers have and they initiate the call to begin with we shouldn't have difficulties.

That's the plan anyway....

Best always,
Doug
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I agree with Doug. There is every chance for greedy, insensitive people to really ruffle feathers over the Volume Purchase concept. It does need to be handled properly. On the other hand I'm not sure that waiting for manufacturers to offer deals will be hugely successful either. Put it this way...if you were waiting for a seat manufacturer to come forward with a special deal you'd be flying around sitting on a bean bag until you lost your medical.

Incidentally I repeat what I have said previously. All of my negotiations are based on the fact that I will not accept any financial advantage (or advantage of any kind) over and above the discount made available to all Van Airforce members. And I would not enter into a group purchase organised by some-one else if it was any other way.
 
Bob Barrow said:
snip....On the other hand I'm not sure that waiting for manufacturers to offer deals will be hugely successful either. Put it this way...if you were waiting for a seat manufacturer to come forward with a special deal you'd be flying around sitting on a bean bag until you lost your medical. snip.
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Thanks, Bob.

I should say that if someone wants to make a mfgr/dealer aware of this group buy process then by all means do! Here's the direct link to the sticky where I talk about what the mfgr/dealer needs to do. Email them the URL.

I included this in the sticky, but not very detailed. I will go update that text now. (2/23/06 1425GMT update - text updated)

Best always,
Doug
 
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Very Interesting!

I would certainly be interested. Covered or uncovered? Working on fuselage on 9A. Not that far from needing seats.
 
Wondering, as these threads often do...

Put me down for a pair. When and if we work a deal.

Thanks but let's not upset our vendors. Remember they are just trying to make a few $$$ and imagine that cutting and gluing the foam takes some time, thus the crazy cost.
 
VP Concept

Bob Barrow said:
There is every chance for greedy, insensitive people to really ruffle feathers over the Volume Purchase concept. It does need to be handled properly. On the other hand I'm not sure that waiting for manufacturers to offer deals will be hugely successful either. Put it this way...if you were waiting for a seat manufacturer to come forward with a special deal you'd be flying around sitting on a bean bag until you lost your medical.


Sam Walton has rolled over in his grave! Oh and he's laughing too... :D
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Interested

Just received my Hooker Harnesses and saved 30%! I am looking forward to other group purchases as well. It seems like a good idea to see what the vendors are willing to do for a large group order. I agree it isn't likely that we are going to have too many vendors step forward all on their own and offer deals like we just had with Hooker without someone contacting them with a large number of people with money in hand.

I too would like to know who you are working with and when you are expecting to pull this one together.
 
Wouldn't it be al little better to form up before we attack! I think you are going about this a%$ Backwards. Narrow down to a product we all want then approach them!
 
Vendor Spendor

:p :p All this because some RV Vendor got their feelings hurt over a "Group Buy" conversation. Gees... grow up. If their feelings got hurt by the everyday RV'er trying to hook up a good deal for the RV masses they might want to reconsider being in business at all. For such a little amount of heat, maybe they need to get out of the kitchen. :eek:
 
Broken-wrench said:
Bob don't you think we should talk about it here before you start running off shotgun style. I hope you don't F. I. U for everyone! :mad:
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Relax, I've run my own companies all of my life. I think I know the best way to deal with this....and it isn't by opening up public negotiations with vendors through an anarchic group email forum.

Setting up a Volume Purchase on seats is a very delicate and quite complicated matter. Seats are virtually hand made and manufacturers are only going to be able to gain economy of scale by reducing the number of variable options. It doesn't matter how many seats we buy if every seat is different....seat manufacturers will not be able to reduce their overheads in any meaningful sense unless there is some standardisation. So that is what I am currently working towards.

There is no point in opening up a poll on who we should negotiate with....the matter has already gone beyond that point. Consider in the first place that very few companies would have the infrastructure to deal with the manufacture of possibly hundreds of seats in a reasonable time frame. Price may be important but quality is paramount. We don't want to be negotiating with a manufacturer who will need to subcontract most of the work or employ temporary semi-skilled workers to fulfil the order.

In due course I will report fully to the group via this thread on my negotiations. Stand by.
 
I think I know the best way to deal with this....and it isn't by opening up public negotiations with vendors through an anarchic group email forum.

As a group should have a say in what vendors are to be considered! As Far as we know it could be a manufaturer in Bejing China?

Setting up a Volume Purchase on seats is a very delicate and quite complicated matter. Seats are virtually hand made and manufacturers are only going to be able to gain economy of scale by reducing the number of variable options. It doesn't matter how many seats we buy if every seat is different....seat manufacturers will not be able to reduce their overheads in any meaningful sense unless there is some standardisation. So that is what I am currently working towards.

So as long as we all purchase the same style of seat that you find attractive we get the discount?

There is no point in opening up a poll on who we should negotiate with....the matter has already gone beyond that point.
I'm glad you decided for us!

Thanks but No thanks! I'll wait for RV8riveter or Andy or do my own deal.
 
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:(

Broken-wrench said:
Thanks but No thanks! I'll wait for RV8riveter or Andy or do my own deal.
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This exactly the kind of approach that will mess up the "group" buy approach. I find it's interesting, in the two that have occured up til now, they worked perfectly and everyone one won in the end. In niether case, were they an open debate as to what, who, how much, etc. The people who took the initiative to set them up worked to make a good deal for all and shared as the deal came together.

I find what Bob is doing, exactly the same. If he's working to an inital deal, then let him do it. If you go do your own, while his is working it will screw up the effort for the rest of us.

Let's get the moose on the table, what's the issue? An open forum to *debate* the merits of who, what, how much will be just that OPEN. Seats are too custom to have that kind of debate.

Dang, if you are just too anxious to get seats, then go ahead, mess it up for the rest of us. If not, then cool your jets and let the process run it's course. I find nothing wrong with what is taking place. When the deal is structured, I'm sure Bob will post and let us know. Shoot right now, we don't even know who, let alone what, how or how much.

Just remember, there is power in numbers and whether it's 5% or 25%, that's 5% more than most of us will get going onesy-twosey to the vendors.

my .02
 
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"Let's get the moose on the table, what's the issue? An open forum to *debate* the merits of who, what, Seats are too custom to have that kind of debate." :confused: Whattttttttttttttt?

[Why can't people alighn that are interested in a specific manufacturer ?
"Shoot right now, we don't even know who, let alone what, how or how much."

Therein is the problem. Everything In the last Items were targeted for a specific manufacturer. If you read the threads for group buys it started product specific like with, Hooker Harness, Or mil Spec Fasteners. How can I mess it up if we don't know who or what? This sounds like more and more like the guys who negoiated my last union contract at United! Nobody knew Sh#$!
 
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There is something in it for the manufacturer - they are likely to get a bunch more sales if they give us a discount... otherwise they can expect a lot of those folks will go off and each do their own thing and they will lose a lot of sales, regardless of who the mystery manufacturer is. We all have very specific tastes when it comes to seats and types of upholstery, I am very interested in a group buy, but not a generic seat. That is quite a bit different than the camlocks or the harnesses. I can wait to see what you are working up, but at the same time I think you need to get an idea of what the masses want or your negotiations may be for naught.
 
"Getter Done"

Okay,

Nobody has said you can't persue your own "group buy". I think there will be more than one seat "group buy" just as there was for the harnesses. Some are looking for the top of the line... others for basic functionality. I say, if you want a "group buy" on a specific product then "getter done". :D

Darrell
 
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Seat Group Buy.

Been watching this post for information on the Seat Group Buy. Are you getting closer for the Big Deal on the Seats. Not in a big hurry but would buy if we get a Deal.
Thanks,
Squeak
 
Squeak said:
Been watching this post for information on the Seat Group Buy. Are you getting closer for the Big Deal on the Seats. Not in a big hurry but would buy if we get a Deal.
Thanks,
Squeak
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Negotiations still underway with a major player. When I have any definitive information either way, I will report to everyone via this thread.
 
Thank you Bob for your time and effort....I can see these how buys may not happen in the future. I know I would think twice about starting one. Unless one of you boys (girls-Roberta ;) ) could get a group buy on IO-360's and Hartzell props.
Again, Thank you.....
 
TerryPancake said:
Unless one of you boys (girls-Roberta ;) ) could get a group buy on IO-360's and Hartzell props.
Again, Thank you.....
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The source for a group buy of Lycoming IO-360's and Hartzell props is Van's Aircraft, Inc. 14401 NE Keil Rd, Aurora, OR 97002 Tele 503.678.6545. They have been working this "group buy" for a long time and I have it on good authority they will honour the group rate for all new commers.

Jekyll :D
 
Jekyll, you are right... :eek: Doh! I just need a good Visa number. :D :D
I'll call and just throw out your name... :D
 
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What's the hold up?

Bob Barrow said:
Negotiations still underway with a major player. When I have any definitive information either way, I will report to everyone via this thread.
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If the person working this deal for the vendor or so called "major player" worked for me they would already be FIRED. Ah Boss, we have 125 + RV'ers wanting to buy seats today... duh... what do I do? :confused:

I say we move on and find a vendor that wants to do BUSINESS! :cool:
 
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Interested

I am interested in the group seat purchase. I'll watch the postings to see how it progresses.

TAS
Terry
RV-7 finnish kit, engine ordered.
 
I've been involved in a number of group buys and I think VAF has "group buy fever"... It's really simple... group buys are a way to get wholesale/reseller prices by placing a wholesale/reseller size order. They shouldn't be treated as some collective bargaining pseudo-union threat, like, "if you won't give me a good price I'll have my 125 people go to another vendor and you'll get nothing bwahahahah." That isn't good for anyone.

I've only coordinated 3 group buys myself (participated in more), and for those I simply ordered a high quantity and got a good discount from the vendor *because of MY order size*. I then redistributed the parts to the 150 or so people in the "group" at my cost (including my cost to reship the parts USPS). This allowed me/us to have some custom parts fabricated, and we all got good prices, and the vendors had reason to give a discount because it cost them less to sell to us as a group and ship everything to a single address, just as it costs them less to sell to a retailer. In one case it allowed me to buy direct from a chinese manufacturer who normally wouldn't have given me the time of day. In another case it justified having custom circuit boards printed when I normally would've wire wrapped or photo-etched a prototype. In every case it made financial sense for everyone involved.

What I've heard here sounds like a bad deal for the vendor. Not only do they have a "negotiator" to deal with, but they still must receive a bunch of little orders and ship a bunch of seperate shipments, plus they have the overhead of keeping track of who is part of the "group". Plus, all the orders come in a burst which can cause production problems for smaller shops. Frankly I wonder why any vendor would go along with such a "deal".
 
just in time

Not only do they have a "negotiator" to deal with, but they still must receive a bunch of little orders and ship a bunch of seperate shipments, plus they have the overhead of keeping track of who is part of the "group".​

When you mail order an iPod today, it is drop shipped from China. It's obvious an existing a/c seat manufactuer might be too exotic for these modern concepts, but that just means there's a market waiting. Someone ought to be able to figure out how to mix and match 2 seat styles per RV type, and leather /fabric colors and what-not. It's not rocket science. And it doesn't have to be a single volume deal. How many RV'ers would sign for a 20-25% discount on seats to be delivered within 4 months? Probably quite a few, and any smart vendor would see that as an opportunity to stage workloads and inventory.

I'm sitting here, with $2K burning in my pocket for pMags, and I don't know what to do given their delivery record. These vendors need to get with the program or someone in China will be.
 
This is a small market... maybe 2000 units sold per annum total for all experimental aircraft seats combined, and that's a stretch. You can't apply iPod (4.5 MILLION units shipped 4q '05) standards. China ain't gonna touch it for a long time.

So the question remains... what benefit does the vendor receive that is worth giving a 25% discount? Getting the money up front? Money is worth maybe 6-10% per year... 25% per quarter is usury. Having a full order pipeline? If they are any good they will run to the limits of the market anyway. Being able to buy materials in larger quantities? That may not save them much and certainly raises the warehousing and processing overhead. Perhaps tremendously, if the shop doesn't have enough space to deal with the new requirements and needs to lease a larger facility.

Either their current prices are fair, in which case they don't have room for a 25% discount, or their current prices are inflated in which case who wants to do business with them anyway.

Now, if you are talking about convincing a Y-T Industrial Co., Ltd. of Taiwan (a manufacturer of seat cushions, shoe parts, and many other necessities of modern industry) to produce a custom run of seat cushion foam... you might do it, and I bet you could get the seats for $100 each all covered and ready to go, but frankly I'd rather have "named materials" type seats in my plane.
 
I'm out.

My position in regards to negotiating a Volume Purchase on seats is no longer tenable in view of another Group Buy for seats which has been established on the VanAirforce RV8 list. I can't have other VanAirforce members contacting and attempting to bully a seat manufacturer when I am at an advanced and delicate stage of negotiations with that vendor.

For a further more expansive opinion on this matter you can read my posting #14 on the VansAirforce RV8 list on the thread: "Group Buy. Classic Areo (sic) or Oregon Aero Seats".
 
Thanks Bob!

I appreciate your efforts!

Some may think it takes only numbers to have a vendor drooling about a deal and agree to a discount but that's not the case. They have to take the time to study what effects it will have on their business over the long term. In this market (RV Seats) they already know that most builders have specific taste and are going to buy (or not buy) from them regardless of a discount so why offer one. I know from experience setting up group and bulk buys takes time and a lot of communication with vendors. I'm sure given enough time you would have had a deal you could have offered to all of us.

This has been frustrating to you I'm sure and I respect the restraint you have shown in the forums. If nothing else is learned by building an airplane, patience is. That's all you were asking for and for the most part, what you were getting back from the group. It's confusing when you posted you intentions and got back the "no, that's not good enough, gotta have it now" attitude. Patience truly is a virtue.

Again, I applaud your efforts Bob, thanks for taking the time to try to help the rest of us.

Rat
 
Bob Barrow said:
...when I am at an advanced and delicate stage of negotiations with that vendor...
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I appreciate your effort Bob, and am sorry to hear it fell apart. However, I don't understand why the negotiations need to be so delicate or drawn out. I would think it's simply a matter of calling up a manufacturer, asking if they'd give a discount for 30-100 orders of their product, and then putting the details on the forum. Don't take this the wrong way. So far I've just been a free-loader on the milspec and Hooker group buys. I'm just curious why the negotiations were so drawn out.
 
This is just so unhelpful that you are doing this. You are simply contacting companies and discovering things that I already know. You're stomping all over the top of me. In addition you're making us look fragmented and disorganised as a group. It was never going to be a case of choosing which seat company you wanted and then bullying them into a deal.

I have let you ramble on.... on this site and on the General Discussions site, because I couldn't really stop you. And I did not want to go into the details of my negotiations in a public forum at this time because I believed it would jeopardise a possible successful outcome.

But I have watched with dismay as you and a few others have publicly recommended that we bludgeon the seat manufacturers into a deal they couldn't refuse (how silly is that!!!). This is the reason Doug Reeves has banned postings on his Group Buy site. He was smart. When you open these things to the public you end up inviting public comments [snip].

I made it clear that I was negotiating with "a major player". How many major players are there. But no, that was not good enough for you.

The benefits for me personally in this matter are miniscule and not worth the effort required in setting it up. In that respect I took on the task of negotiating for a seat volume purchase mainly as a benefit for the RV community as a whole.

The Hooker deal and the Milspec deal were successful in the main because the negotiators in those cases did not advise the VanAirforce Group until the deal was done...therefore they did not have to suffer the problem of members making ugly public comments in respect of the vendors before negotiations were completed. I was not in a position to do similar. It was obvious to me that the negotiations for seats would be long and protracted and others would be jumping in all over the place if I didn't announce my intentions.

I now believe my position has been completely compromised by your actions and I am withdrawing from any further negotiations in respect of setting up a group buy on seats.

So you can now take it over, which is what you were doing anyway.

Many hundreds of VansAirforce members have been very sensible and patient in this matter. Most people were intelligent enough to read between the lines and they saw what I was trying to do, even though I could not publicly go into greater detail. I thank all those people and express my regret that the exercise has been compromised [snip].--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I, I, I, I, I, Maybe that's the problem Bob? There should have been a few more We! We'll That said, How about forwarding me all the email that was sent to you by the manufacturers. I havn't talked to anyone other than Employees and that was before this thread started. I would like to be informed before I have to talk to anyone of importance that can make a decision. If you have any info I'll take it. I'll give it till Tuesday and then proceed with or without any help.
 
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Sorry Bob,

1. To those who don't understand the delicacies of the process....well okay you just don't understand it. I imagine there was alot of discussion about the parameters of customization which would be allowed while still keeping the discount, perhaps several diferent packages were being designed.

The balance with an item this custom is between bulk discount of exact clones...which reduces price, and allowing custom designs which eliminates the value of numbers because there is no economy of scale.

2. Bob Barrow was willing to lend his CONSIDERABLE reputation capital to this project. Again to those who do not already understand what value that carries....well you just don't understand. But he was undermined by people displaying exactly the behavior which creates a seperate economy for consumer and commercial transactions.

3. Why do you think it is that busineses generally buy for less, and that manufacturers prefer to deal with the public through resellers? It is exactly because of the rampant ignorance and whiny tough guy cr@p that we saw in this thread.

4. Consumers just do not get that although 2 grand is alot of money for them, it is a very small margin opportunity for the manufacturer.

In short, this deal was doomed by the vociferous ignorant masses. The art of the deal in business relationships is not in tough guy saber rattling, but rather in long term, volume relationships which work to eliminate transaction costs. It also requires parties who understand that all parties must benefit.

Bob gets it, has been there, has done that.

The rest of you who ruined it....shame on you...you could have played in your own sandbox, instead you ruined it for people that you definitely do not speak for.

Thanks Again Bob!

Shame on the rest
 
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way to go guys

Bob:

If you end up pulling a deal back together, please put me on your list of folks to contact. If it's possible to get any savings on a good product, I am interested.

You know guys, neither the vendors nor the "negotiators" owe us anything. Being demanding and difficult will get us exactly what we have so far -- nothing.

Antony
 
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