jlfernan

Well Known Member
I'm getting ready to receive my QB wings and fuse and am starting to plan my panel. I planon doing a VFR day/night panel. Steam gauges and engine intruments probably from Vans. My question is, what is the concensus as to what flight or engine instruments are necessary? I don't want to go too basic, but for instance, since I'm VFR only do really need a DG? Any help and photos will be a great help. :confused:
 
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Jorge,

Don't waste your money on a DG, especially if you are going to only fly VFR. Dan Checkoway flies IFR and he doesn't have a DG, just the Dynon with hdg info. As for everything else, I'm strictly day/night VFR and what I have is a Dynon, A/S, ALT, and VSI. On the engine side I have a JPI engine analyzer, fuel pressure, oil press and temp, EI digital tach, and MP gage. I'd recommend something that's all inclusive of these gages, JPI, EI, or ACS all sell these items...it'll save you money and panel space in the long run. Beware of certain Van's gages. I was told not to buy a Van's MP gage, so I ordered one from Aircraft spruce. I did initially install the Van's anolog tach, but this thing proved to be about 100rpm off and so I ended up switching to an EI electronic gage which has proven to be dead on accuarate. Shoot me an email off line if you have any further questions, I have a different approach/attitude than the norm.
Tobin
 
Go with at least an ai

Hi, I would put an AI in the panel for sure. I like the Tru Trak combined DG/AI. It is not a true AI but it would keep you out of trouble. You never know when you might get into a situation you didn't plan on so plan ahead and have enough instruments to get you out of trouble should the need arise. You might want to read some of the stories in the articles section on this site. There is a good one that explains why a guy is puting an IFR panel in his plane even though he is a VFR pilot. Hope for the best, plan for the worst! You might even want to get your IFR cert one day? :eek:
 
I've been flying my day/night VFR -6 for 5 years. I have the FAA required stuff (altimeter, compass, ASI, engine gauges, etc.) Beyond that, I think I have three gauges not mandated by the Feds: T&B, G-meter, and VSI.

I'm tempted to add a Dynon or one of wing leveler's, but they are not necessary for my mission. Also, $2k buys a fair amount of avgas...
 
day night VFR

...... of course, you gotta have the necessary instruments for night VFR according to 91.205.

If you get a Dynon FlightDek 180 - it's got you covered.

Should you decide to go day VFR only (just to get it airborne) you don't have to have anything at all. This is what Joe Norris (first appointed AB-DAR) at EAA has told me. I know this sounds funny but as long as you stay outside of controlled airspace - you don't have to have anything in that plane at all in the way of instrumentation or gages. :cool:

DISCLAIMER: Common sense would tell you that you should have a few things just to be safe. I plan on using the FD180 but with it I plan on having redundant ASI, ALT and Compass. :)
 
Night "VFR"?

Apologies in advance if you already know this... There are some places where night VFR is an oxymoron. It could be a clear, moonless night, and you take off over the water or a big area of wilderness, and you'll have a heck of a time finding the horizon. Throw in some very high clouds that block all the stars, and you're really going to need an attitude indicator. If you're not mentally ready for this, it will surprise the heck out of you.

Where I fly there are lots of these black areas, and they are usually associated with mountains - double danger. In south Florida, there seem to be a lot of lights, but there are still huge areas of black.

As others have already stated, one of the current crop of low end EFIS would be an excellent choice. Here's what my panel will look like, if I can ever get it back from the panel cutter:

 
Some gages.......

Hi Robert. For day VFR you still have to have a magnetic compass and an altimeter. You also have to have an oil pressure/temp gage (for a fourstroke engine), a tach and fuel gage/gages.

I've probabl ferried 30 ag airplanes from Wichita to Georgia with only the above gauges and they're fine for day VFR. Be very careful of night VFR as another poster said......it can hurt you,
Regards, ;)
 
jlfernan said:
I'm getting ready to receive my QB wings and fuse and am starting to plan my panel. I planon doing a VFR day/night panel. Steam gauges and engine intruments probably from Vans. My question is, what is the concensus as to what flight or engine instruments are necessary? I don't want to go too basic, but for instance, since I'm VFR only do really need a DG? Any help and photos will be a great help. :confused:

It depends on what your OPERATING LIMITATIONS say.

If you have the latest Operating Limitations IAW FAA Order 8130.2F change 1, it will read: "After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with ? 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only."

FAR 91.205 http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-205-FAR.shtml

(not copy and paste becasue it is too long) FAR 91.205 sells out exactly what is required for LEGAL night flight. 91.205 only applies to "STANDARD" aircraft but your Operating Limitations make it apply to your EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. If you are VFR DAY ONLY, FAR 91.205 does not apply.

Night VFR is not a good description. Regulations tell you what you have to have but it can turn to IFR too fast. My personal limit is to avoid flying a VFR only aircraft at night. I prefer an IFR capable aircraft for night flight. FAA Order 8130.2F gives the ASI or DAR two options for the operating limitations. VFR Day Only where 91.205 does not apply and VFR Day / Night plus IFR where 91.205 does apply.

http://www.rvdar.com
 
Altimeter Q

A question for you guys flying with "glass" and a back-up altimeter..

What do you do when you get a new altimeter setting from ATC?

Do you press knobs/buttons and use the glass panel only, or do you have to do the programming bit AND then set the steam gauge back-up altimeter in the old fashioned way?

Do you always keep them in sync.? ....or do you just make one the master (the glass, I would presume) and just not set the back-up?

gil in Tucson..... never flown behind glass...

PS my observation of a neighbors new C-182 was that there were too many buttons/knobs/modes/interconnected avionics and not enough time to look out.... :)
 
az_gila said:
A question for you guys flying with "glass" and a back-up altimeter..

What do you do when you get a new altimeter setting from ATC?

Do you press knobs/buttons and use the glass panel only, or do you have to do the programming bit AND then set the steam gauge back-up altimeter in the old fashioned way?

Do you always keep them in sync.? ....or do you just make one the master (the glass, I would presume) and just not set the back-up?

gil in Tucson..... never flown behind glass...

PS my observation of a neighbors new C-182 was that there were too many buttons/knobs/modes/interconnected avionics and not enough time to look out.... :)


I set the glass first ... then the backup. I found the glass just as easy as the old steam guage, after only a few hours.
 
pierre smith said:
Hi Robert. For day VFR you still have to have a magnetic compass and an altimeter. You also have to have an oil pressure/temp gage (for a fourstroke engine), a tach and fuel gage/gages.

I've probabl ferried 30 ag airplanes from Wichita to Georgia with only the above gauges and they're fine for day VFR. Be very careful of night VFR as another poster said......it can hurt you,
Regards, ;)

I agree that some things (gages and instruments) are a good idea but there are no regulations for day VFR only when it comes to "Special Airworthiness Certificates." For Standard Airworthiness, yes there are regs. Also for night VFR and IFR.

This information comes from Joe Norris of the EAA - I asked him specifically about day VFR - according to him, not even a compass.
 
VFR and the real world

jlfernan said:
Steam gauges and engine instruments probably from Vans. :confused:
Why steam? I assume you are not going to consider a Dynon EFIS-D10A and a GRT EIS-4000 engine monitor. Add a Com, transponder and handheld GPS you have a very powerful inexpensive panel. Add a wing leveler auto pilot w/ GPS couple you are in tall cotton.

Sure you could sub just an altimeter, airspeed and wet compass for the Dynon and yes you could sub a handful of inexpensive hand held Van's analog gages, but why? Just a question, not a challenge or disagreement.

Also a few mentioned night VFR and having an AI. As an instructor, even private pilots learn basic attitude instrument work. Why? For good reasons, the FAA found it saved or could save lives. As you are aware every year many VFR only pilots and their passengers die by the epitaph continued VFR into IMC conditions. Granted many of these accident planes had gyros that where not put to proper use, so there is an argument for not putting in a gyro. However I say gyro+training+currency equals increased safety, but I don't know how you plan to fly your RV. Clearly a VFR pilot in a VFR RV has no business flying in IMC, low visibility or with no refrence to the horizon or ground. If you just want a local day VFR only RV than I would leave the Gyro out myself. This would be my panel for this mission:

http://www.pipercubforum.com/cubdash.htm

I find NIGHT, even on clear nights can be as disorientating as flying in low visability. Have you ever taken off on a moonless night over water or over sparsely populated areas? I say if you plan on flying cross country and / or at night consider an attitude indicator (AI).

Some may suggest just adding a T&B or TC as your "instrument" back-up gyro. I say from experience and statistics your chance of survival in IMC or dark no horizon night as a VFR pilot, partial panel (needle, ball and airspeed), is pretty slim in real conditions with the stress of the moment in a slick RV.

This is the bare min FAR 91.205:
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-205-FAR.shtml

As someone mentioned for an amateur built experimental you don't even need part 91.205. Yep no airspeed, altimeter oil pressure, fuel nothing! That is true, but it's like a trivia answer, since no one in their right mind would fly a RV with NO instruments of any kind. Yes you can do that, but why would you. :eek:

I say equip for the mission a RV is designed for. One of those missions is cross country. With that mission you want to have what I call a DELUX VFR panel, not a bare min panel, but if all you want to do is fly day VFR within 10 miles of your home airport, than by all means put in the min steam gages. You can save huge money and weight leaving off the lights for night flight.


I think the utility and value of electronic instruments is worth it, for what you are getting. If you want a gyro than an EFIS is the way to go. To get a vacuum pump is illogical now a days, given the cost of vacuum pumps and their dubious reliability. Electric mechanical gyros are big bucks. Get a Dynon and you get 10 instruments in one. Get a GRT EIS 4000, you not only get the basics you need : OIL TEMP, OIL PRESS, FUEL PRESS, RPM, FUEL LEVEL L&R, you get OAT, VOLTS, CHT and EGT. You have the option to add MANIFOLD PRESS, FUEL FLOW, AMPS to name a few. Not only this you get warning of high or low exceedence of limits you set. How many pilots actually scan their engine instruments constantly or at least consistently? We should but in reality we don't. The electronics do this mundane task better than we could ever do it. This adds safety.

As an instructor I could not fail engine instruments in the actual plane, but in a little simulator I could. I was surprised how long pilots flew with ZERO volts or oil pressure before they noticed. :eek: I was also surprised how long I went before I noticed once. An instrument that monitors all engine parameters and gives you a big RED flashing light when ANYTHING is out of NORMAL is a real cool thing. Nothing wrong with analog. Heck the fancy sports cars and luxury cars all have analog gages. My Rolex watch is analog. Love analog, but the electronics have an edge. Of course the higher end engine monitors add both a digital and analog graphic. Dynon has an engine monitor to match their EFIS. In fact they have a new all in one deal with a big display for not much money (for what you get).

I know analog gages are cool to look at, but they are not necessarily cheaper, especially for high quality ones. Van's gages are lower (lowest) cost inexpensive units. They may cost a little less than the basic EIS4000 (about $1000), but it's like comparing your first bicycle to Lance Armstrong's Tour de France carbon fiber racing bike. They both are cool, especially your first bike as a kid, but do you want to ride that bike today. Same with instruments. These comments represent my opinion only.
 
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I think George's post here is right on. The Dynon D10A, Garmin 396, EIS 4000 (with the options), Icom, Trutrak Digitrak, King Transponder. I can't think of a more functional + economical combo. In fact, this is my panel. I did add backup steam versoin of Alt, Airspeed, VS because at the time the Dynon line was fairly new. If I were to do it again, I'd add another D10A instead, probably over on the passenger side.
 
OneTwoSierra said:
I think George's post here is right on. The Dynon D10A, Garmin 396, EIS 4000 (with the options), Icom, Trutrak Digitrak, King Transponder. I can't think of a more functional + economical combo. In fact, this is my panel. I did add backup steam versoin of Alt, Airspeed, VS because at the time the Dynon line was fairly new. If I were to do it again, I'd add another D10A instead, probably over on the passenger side.
Ditto for my VFR panel.

Only I installed the Dynon EMS D10 on the right side and bussed it together with the D100 on the left side. This allows the person in the right seat (instructor, wife, whomever) to have a full functional EFIS on their side.

In addition I backed the Dynon up with an AS, Altimeter, compass, and ball.

The reason for the Dynon was more for night VFR operations than anything else. It turned out for a little more than the price of a good artificial horizon I could have the Dynon with all of its goodies.

BTW, George, I couldn't agree with you more.